How much to do these two scenes?

[Aspiring Mogul]

A Nascar driver's job is to drive, not figure out how to fix the engine.

In any case, a producer's job is to get the team together and manage their skill sets. He has to know something about what each skill set entails, but not how to do each skill. I have spoken to several managers in various industries, and they say the same thing; I've been speaking to a producer, who also said the same thing, so there is a consistent theme about how humans interact.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

A Nascar driver's job is to drive, not figure out how to fix the engine.

In that metaphor, you're a NASCAR driver who doesn't know how to drive, period. Also, you'd be incredibly stretched to find a professional driver who couldn't work on his own car mechanically - just as you would be to find a producer in film who doesn't know anything about making a film.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

I thought you were leaving this discussion.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

I thought you were leaving this discussion.

Indeed, I am. I just had to pop back in to point out the painfully, misinformed response to my metaphor. I wish you the best of luck in your film making, or, delegation of others filmmaking? Now, I'm out!

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Indeed, I am. I just had to pop back in to point out the painfully, misinformed response to my metaphor. I wish you the best of luck in your film making, or, delegation of others filmmaking? Now, I'm out!

You're sure you're out now?

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

Delegate all you want - It's going to end in a pile of burning flames if you yourself can't be a sufficient, savvy, thoughtful, and creative filmmaker on your own. You can't just outsource your creativity and throw money at it at hope something sticks. You saying that you don't want to learn what camera to use, or any technical skills for that matter, would probably frustrate the majority of this forum - it's an incredibly ignorant way to go about entering filmmaking.

I'm going to have to disagree here. I'm all for doing as much as possible yourself when you're learning, and for myself it's the way I prefer to work - but that's certainly not the only way to do things. In fact, beyond a certain scale it's simply not practical in general.

It's not outsourcing creativity to hire a skilled craftsperson to execute on your vision - it's actually the standard way the industry works. For instance, there are a few high-profile directors who are also competent cinematographers and shoot their own stuff - Rodriguez & Soderbergh are two that come to mind - but they're the exception rather than the rule. Most professional directors likely have only a general knowledge of cameras, and will work closely with a professional DOP who's responsibility is to select the equipment and crew necessary to achieve the director's vision. Most producers probably have even less technical knowledge than the director.

If AM's goal is to become a producer, then it doesn't necessarily make sense to spend a lot of time learning the technical side of things. There are dozens of threads here which contain enough technical information to provide a sufficient level of understanding for someone who's goal is to produce or direct.

In that metaphor, you're a NASCAR driver who doesn't know how to drive, period. Also, you'd be incredibly stretched to find a professional driver who couldn't work on his own car mechanically - just as you would be to find a producer in film who doesn't know anything about making a film.

Again I'm going to disagree - AM has the metaphor correct. I don't know any NASCAR drivers, but I do know a few people who race motorcycles. In professional racing the rider's job is to ride, period. They might know how to change their oil or perform other simple mechanical maintenance, but they have professional mechanics & tuners who's job it is to make the bike perform at it's peak. They'll have a suspension specialist; the rider says "the front end is chattering as I come into turns 3 & 5" and the suspension guy's job is to interpret what that means from a mechanical standpoint and make the necessary adjustments. The higher the level of racing, the larger the crew and the more specialization there will be among the crew members - tire people, parts specialists, etc. The driver is the last component in the team, and their job is to point the vehicle in the right direction, navigate the turns, keep it on the track, and run it at it's limits - but without the rest of the team behind them they don't stand a chance of winning the race.

And in truth the driver's equivalent role would be that of the director - the producer equivalent would be the team owner and/or manager. They are responsible for pulling together the best team possible, comprised of specialists who have the mechanical skills necessary to build a winning machine and keep it running smoothly.

It's probably going to cost more to do things AM's way - but it doesn't have to be super expensive. The key - and the key skill he'll need to learn - is to find the right people and manage them well. Instead of spending thousands on a camera, he'll need to find someone who already has and spend the money on them. The difference is that instead of just getting a mechanical device for his money, he'll be getting the person's skill and knowledge as well - which is honestly more valuable than the camera itself.

I'd say the best approach will be to find people to partner with, rather than just hire. Find a cinematographer, find a sound person, find an editor, etc - and pull together a team. They don't all have to be professionals, just willing to learn. Spend your money on the things that will enable them to do their best work possible.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Thanks for the support, IDOM.

It's probably going to cost more to do things AM's way - but it doesn't have to be super expensive. The key - and the key skill he'll need to learn - is to find the right people and manage them well. Instead of spending thousands on a camera, he'll need to find someone who already has and spend the money on them. The difference is that instead of just getting a mechanical device for his money, he'll be getting the person's skill and knowledge as well - which is honestly more valuable than the camera itself.

It MUST cost money, because, from my business experience, many people like to give orders, not realizing that, before other people take orders, they must be paid. Goofball managers don't understand that, and I've learned from watching them, so I don't want to make their mistakes. That means I have to force myself to pay something, so I understand - really understand - what it means to run a business.

I'd say the best approach will be to find people to partner with, rather than just hire. Find a cinematographer, find a sound person, find an editor, etc - and pull together a team. They don't all have to be professionals, just willing to learn. Spend your money on the things that will enable them to do their best work possible.

That is a good approach, but, again from my experience in life, I like to run the show. That's why I started my firm, so I can do things my way. I've become a rainmaker, and many others want to work with me, but they say that, ultimately, any business I run must center around me. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. And, again, that is why I have to pay, because no one would work for a such an operation unless they get something in return.

I've learned a lot over the past decade.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

And in truth the driver's equivalent role would be that of the director - the producer equivalent would be the team owner and/or manager. They are responsible for pulling together the best team possible, comprised of specialists who have the mechanical skills necessary to build a winning machine and keep it running smoothly.

That's correct, and I know this because I've spoken to the Chief Technology Officer of a Nasdaq Corporation as well as the former Finance Officer of a restaurant chain. Both are in different industries and said the same thing, namely, to surround yourself with the right type of people and manage them - after you get funding to pay, of course.

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

It MUST cost money, because, from my business experience, many people like to give orders, not realizing that, before other people take orders, they must be paid. Goofball managers don't understand that, and I've learned from watching them, so I don't want to make their mistakes. That means I have to force myself to pay something, so I understand - really understand - what it means to run a business.

I'm not saying don't pay people - I'm saying you need to put something together that's more than just a crew of hired pros.

Don't make the mistake of thinking the compensation people get from a job is purely monetary. It certainly can be, but that usually results in getting just the minimum acceptable output from the employee. That's fine if you're looking for someone to hit a quota of fitting one widget to another, but it's less than ideal when you're looking for someone to work creatively on your behalf. Even from a purely business standpoint you want to ensure you're getting the greatest results for the money you spend - so a smart business person looks for ways to motivate their employees to do their best work, not just the minimum they're being paid for.

Build a team that's invested in the work itself - they'll be doing their best for you because it's for them as well. If you can't figure out how to do that it's going to get very, very expensive to produce good work.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Agreed - you would make a great business manager, IDOM.

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

What IDOM says about building a team is really important. It's cool that you want to pay people - I wish I could pay people more often. But not paying them also doesn't mean losing their following/respect. If they like you, are excited about the project, and want to work on it for their own reasons (secondary or equal to monetary compensation) then you'll get a lot more out of them.

Here's an example:
On one of the first films I shot in high school, there were two main characters - an old woman, and an old man. I knew an old man who was about the only "name" actor in our town (in theatre circles - my town has no film industry) who agreed to be in my film - mostly as a favour I think. He had decades of experience at all sorts of levels (though, to be fair, not a lot in film) and had a far more interesting and well written character to play.
The old lady was poorly written, and pretty much had no development. I cast an old woman I met who wanted to get into acting as something to do in her retirement. She'd done one or two acting gigs (one film, one stage - both as extras).
The old lady was excited to be involved. The old man was doing it as a favour. The old lady read the script, lived it, breathed it, studied it in her own time (even though it was terrible). She rehearsed and researched in her own time and bought several ideas to the character. The old man had skimmed the script once and seemed unhappy to be there.

Guess which performer stole the (poorly written, terribly shot, and abysmally directed) show? That old lady landed a speaking role in a feature film last year.

The point is that because someone is a professional, they won't necessarily be what's right for you. They have to care, they have to want to be involved. Similarly, paying someone isn't simply enough - of course it is good to if you can, and can certainly help attract higher levels of talent.



I also didn't realise AM was wanting to be a producer rather than a director. Fair enough. Your approach makes a little more sense. BUT I still standby my original suggestion.

pull together a team.

You need at least a little experience to understand WHAT team you need. As I said with my previous post, the number of people you could hire for x scene can be hugely varied. You don't need to be an expert in all the skill areas (though it helps to have some knowledge), but just getting some experience in the creation of a film will help you figure out what/who you need, what you can do on your budget, etc.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

Thanks, everyone.

Yes, I want to be a producer - I didn't realize it when I started my quest, but I realize it now. And, yes, I will have to pull together a team. I'm thinking of starting with shorts of two actors, say a cameraman, a lighting man and, that would be it, or so I presume. For the white screen, perhaps another person. But that's my impression, and I don't know for sure.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Instead of a "lighting man" - who is called a grip - get someone to do production sound. You're proposed project of two people talking for five minutes is a scene about two people TALKING, so it had better be a very interesting conversation, and your audience had damned well better be able to understand the conversation.

 

[mus]

if you're looking to hire a freelance VFX person, I'm your guy.

I could also be hired for writing if your films will be in the comedy genre.

 

[mus]

And if you wanted to do a scene similar to that Star Trek scene, it's a lot cheaper than you think

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

As Alcove said, get someone for sound instead of a lighting guy.

If you paying a cinematographer, they have an understanding of lighting and can both operate the camera and set up the lighting (they may ask for a bit of help, but it'll just be you following instructions, holding this pole, etc). Since you're paying someone, try get someone who has their own lighting and camera gear. They'll likely include this in their fee, but it'll be cheaper than hiring the gear separately. And for such a basic scene, you don't need high end gear.

If you're solely producing, who's editing the visuals and the sound? There are people on this forum who'll edit both relatively cheaply (I'd do your visuals if you want, and the member Cracker Funk is IndieTalk's resident editor - there are also a few post-production soundies about).

Since you want the white screen, it may pay to look for a cinematographer who works in advertising by day. They tend to have all their own gear, and have white/black/green screens. They also tend to work as solo videographers, or in a team of 2 or 3. So they're used to doing their own lighting and so on. They may even do their own editing - which could be helpful for you.

The other thing to consider is food. I'd suggest not paying a caterer for this. It's pretty short scene right? It's hard to say how long it'd take to shoot without knowing the specifics of the script, but you can probably bang it out in a few hours. So assuming you're not a terrible cook, you can make some passable food. Pizza is generally not recommended, but on a one day shoot it's often acceptable. If you make the pizza yourself, it's even more acceptable. It's easy and cheap to do. Then get a few snacks. A bowl of fruit and nuts. A few biscuits (home made if possible). If you cannot cook at all, you can go for bought alternatives to these. Or find a friend willing to help out.

 

[mus]

Your team doesn't have to be people in your area, you could do a lot with the IT community.

I'd recommend Mike McGuill for sound. He's done some sound work for me and he's awesome at it. (and music)

I'd recommend ZenSteve for any voice work, especially an elegant character like God or a Narrator or something like that. If you don't know how his voice sounds, watch this sketch: http://youtu.be/_pf4tQgpCgg

We also have quite a few musicians here, like Beatlesfan, for example. http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=54600

If you need some advice on the business side, Rayw is your guy. He also likes math... a lot of math.... god, I hate math

If you need someone to ask a lot of hypothetical questions for you, go with Harmonica44 (lol, just kidding)

And there's all kinds of peeps here with all kinds of talent you could shop around for. Hell, you could even get a lot of people to act for you by asking them to set up their own greenscreen.


For the record, I'd still like to make a feature film or webseries with the IT community featuring space pilots... completely shot on green screens.... with a lot of sexy alien women and explosions and lazers and ka-pew pew sounds and drunken space-bar fights and more alien women.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

I used to be a good cook, and my assistants were thinking of expanding into the food business, but then we decided - or, rather I decided - that film was the way to go.

That said, I'll just order out.

The scenes will be short, to get my feet wet, and the goal is to get training to do webisodes ... and then, one day, if all goes well, actually go into movies.

That's what keeps me going, the thought that I can be a mogul.

 

[Aspiring Mogul]

One more thing - I'm happy you have offered your services, but perhaps I should get a local team for now.

Once the people get together, I will get the benefit of group dynamics, so there will be more scenes.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Delegate all you want - It's going to end in a pile of burning flames if you yourself can't be a sufficient, savvy, thoughtful, and creative filmmaker on your own. ...
You saying that you don't want to learn what camera to use, or any technical skills for that matter, would probably frustrate the majority of this forum - it's an incredibly ignorant way to go about entering filmmaking.

I agree that it would frustrate many on this forum but I most certainly don't agree that it's an "incredibly ignorant" approach. I've worked with several first time directors with no knowledge or experience at all of virtually any of the film crafts, who have hired a team of experienced pros and ended up with a perfectly reasonable commercial quality theatrical feature. Much of what an amateur is likely to learn on his/her own would not be appropriate for a commercial product.

Your advice is perfectly reasonable for a hobbyist filmmaker, not so much for someone with a username like the OP!

The best boss can wear all of the hats - that way he can properly delegate them. ... I'd be borderline insulted by a director of a shoot if he couldn't even do any of the jobs he was trying to 'delegate'

So, you'd be "borderline insulted" by Spielberg, Scorsese, Scott, Kubrik and pretty much all of the great directors? Interesting!

G