Follow up to my "argument" with Sonny and Cracker regarding hybrid distribution.

[Gratwick Films]

Follow up to my "argument" with Sonny and Cracker regarding hybrid distribution.

Sonnyboo,

I am back. I could start this right out with questioning some of your claims in our previous conversation based on my recent experiences but I will take the high road.

Everyone else,

I had gotten into a heated debate several months ago while trying to open a discussion about how the leverage in negotiating for distribution could be turned to the indie filmmakers favor. I was chastized as being a fool, arrogant and a liar.

I tried to explain my plan and the words were lost in the animosity and defeat of everyone else's bitter experiences. I explained how I wanted to do a 6 city tour and try and build fans as we went a long and hope it turned into something much much bigger. I was told by Sonny and others I was a fool and "drunk of the success of making my first movie" Full of condescending comments as they patted me on the back and said "good for you lil fella"

Guess what - It happened!

I even invited Sonny and others to come to the shows and address their concerns or disbelief during our Q&A's. Q&A's broadcast live online so folks like Sonny or Cracker could watch and question me in front of a crowd from the sanctity of their couches. They choose to mock my plan as impossible on a message board instead.

Here is a sizzle real from the tour (FYI this was edited for a reality show pitch that is now currently in development)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FPaLIKfxz0

Oh by the way a review from the UK (one of many similar reviews, this is my favorite however)
http://www.pissedoffgeek.com/wordpress/?p=1381

Feel free to click on the daggers (Its only fan confessions from each city)
http://theperfecthousemovie.net/tour.html

Oh AND what do you know facebook just recently launched a VOD site. One that we will be announcing a partnership with in the near future. www.flicklaunch.com (This site will become the silver bullet for Indie filmmakers)

Currently we are securing the final financing for a 200k marketing plan estimated to reach 60 million people around the world. Our little tour will be a 34 city lap around the country in a tour bus promoting the release of the film. While documenting the entire tour and building a fan base we will be creating an instant documentary/behind the scenes/reality show all while giving away free screenings in each city.

So I will say this one more time. JUST because Sonny or anyone else wasn't able to do something. Doesn't mean you can't!

 

[NickClapper]

I'm going to do it again, just in case people think I'm getting repetitive:

'The internet's not written in pencil, Mark, it's written in ink.

Whatever your intentions with this thread, it has your production comapny's name attached to it and is increasingly making you look like an asshole. I understand your point and I do feel like sometimes people come on to IndieTalk and get ambushed by the 'regulars' which ends up making the OP look bad, but, on this occasion, you've got to cut your losses. Cracker and Sonnyboo are important and popular members of this community and people aren't going to change long established opinions of them just because you've had a bad experience.

Just like a friend of mine who spend a month in hospital after eating a dozen oysters. I still love 'em.

 

[Cracker Funk]

My hope was that Sonny and Cracker would have been humble enough to realize whether I succeed financially or not at this point, they were wrong about where the limits of what is possible are.

Even with this statement, I don't really understand your motivation for starting this thread and posting so many venemous remarks. I also don't really understand why you're singling two of us out, when the response you received in the previous thread was rather unanimous. What are you trying to accomplish?

For my own purposes, I want very much to be on good grounds with as many filmmaking peers as I can. I figure, if I can't attract filmmakers to my movie, I'm going to have a really difficult time attracting a "regular" audience.

What you're doing right now is basically anti-promotion. You're giving people reasons to NOT watch your movie, and you're doing it in a very public way. You want my opinion on how I would tweak your promotion and distribution model? There's a pretty big one right here, for ya -- Stop Attacking People in Public Forums.

 

[Kholi]

If standing up for my dream, executing it in the face of doubters and then telling others they to can do it make you assume I'm arrogant or a bitch to work with then thats your disfunction not mine.

If that makes me or my people arrogant, so be it. We have the work to back it up and the ability and the desire to give good people GREAT opportunities.
.

From one ambitious, moon-seeking, aspiring wanna-be to another... let your work speak for itself, then.

No judgement passed, and hope you get what you seek.

If we actually had a 1M-2M offer for our no-name-having, low-budget-looking feature film there's no way I would even consider turning it down for something like VOD.

 

[Utopia]

Hmm.

When someone puts on the whole "No-one believed in me and I'm going to rub it in their faces once I get famous", they invariably all fail.

Friend of mine from High School came down to L.A. and that is ALL he has tried to do is become famous and rich and live the life of a celebrity. I looked up his IMDB page a little while ago and he has been in L.A. for almost 10 years and hasn't gotten a role with an actual NAME on it. It's been independent films with roles like "Guy at bar #6" and "Frat Guy #4"...

When you go out and make an effort to make others wrong once you've become famous or had any kind of success, it really turns off potential producers and clients. It's really cheesy and has no class at all.

Do you hear Quentin Tarantino spouting off how no-one knew about him before he made it big? No... It's unprofessional.

It sort of shows up the fact that you really haven't made it big because if you made it really really really big, you wouldn't feel the urge to rub it in people's faces...

 

[directorik]

I stayed out of the original conversation because I felt Gatwick
wasn’t willing to listen and was too quick to make things personal.
But I did do a search;

No one called him a fool - Cracker said he thought he would be a
fool to refuse a million dollar offer - the one and only time that word
was used.

The only time arrogant was use was Gatwick saying he is arrogant.

And no one ever called him a liar. Not once.

It’s interesting that anyone who wished him luck he thinks was being
condescending. Could it be the “it takes one to know one” scenario?

This is my final post I've tried to expand the limits of whats possible for all of you

I take him at his word that he has made his final post so I am going to
speak my mind. I just feel compelled to say I find in unconscionable that
he is using Pink and Eminem without permission in his sizzle reel. Using
songs without permission is done all the time - I find it reprehensible.

 

[sonnyboo]

I CONTINUE to fail to see where these ridiculous assumptions come from about me.

I'll give you some examples...

The success of the film and a little luck we've made connections in Hollywood that have us in direct contact with the decision makers of studios like Lionsgate and Universal. If we sell our movie we are most likely looking at a deal of 1-2 million. TOPS.

along with the entire

3. Not to be arrogant but this film we made is disgustingly good, the production quality alone is above most multi million dollar straight to dvd movies and the theme and concept are on par with that production value.

Those aren't assumptions, but your own words. Most people don't react well to such hubris. You've set up a mighty high plateau to fall from.

Im talking about live and let live and your all condemning me as the instigator.

That's probably because instead of just talking about your successes or cause, you wanted to attack two individuals. Making something personal out of criticism of your flawed business plan that has as of yet made little to no money, is also why people aren't grooving on your posts. No one has attacked you, your person, or your film. I haven't seen it and have no interest in seeing it. I forgot you were alive until you posted on this forum today.

Where I grew up and everywhere i've been when you stifle or shit on peoples dreams your a hater no matter how much you want to consider yourself a teach or a mentor.

First off, it's "you're" as in "you are" not "your". There, I'm being a real teacher and mentor.

What I have been telling you from the getgo is that it is LESS LIKELY, not impossible, to make a higher profit from VOD than traditional distribution. For whatever reason, in your imagination you think this is shitting on your dreams. All you really wanted was everyone to agree with you. I just don't see it, and someday you'll just have to accept the differing point of view as it is from my limited experience.

As far as I've seen, especially from your own video, you haven't had any financial or critical success to make me feel you have contradicted my theory...

I posted the links and information on this page to prove that Sonny has NO CLUE what is or is not possible. That doesn't make him a horrible person or any other unnecessary name. I would more than welcome creative, productive comments, questions or critiques yet every response from these two is filled with negativity and absolutes about why not. As well as the occasional snipers that monkey see monkey do.

You posted a link to a single positive review on an obscure horror blog in the UK (and the review has less than 200 views).

You posted a link to a YouTube video you edited with barely 100 views where your cast and crew talk about how disappointed they were with the screening tour you've been doing and how they want to rethink the entire concept because it's to much work.

You posted a link to your own site where you selectively chose to place only the positive comments from people who have seen the movie.

You only have 2,060 fans on Facebook when you are aiming for 1,000,000 by the VOD release...

Nothing you have posted has remotely proven your original hypothesis that you can make more than the "only $1-$2 million" from traditional distribution from the likes of Universal or Lionsgate.

Did I miss something? What is the link that shows exactly how your radical distribution was so much more profitable than traditional distribution?

My hope was that Sonny and Cracker would have been humble enough to realize whether I succeed financially or not at this point, they were wrong about where the limits of what is possible are.

But I wasn't wrong.... you didn't make more than $1-$2 million dollars from VOD instead of making a traditional distribution deal with Universal or Lionsgate.

You made a post for me, mentioning me by my screen name and you were hoping that your somewhat lackluster screening series and near total lack of press or reviews along with little to no financial gain thus far was going to change my mind and make me beg for forgiveness? Dude, I'm not ill-wishing, but do you really think posts like yours here help or hurt you get to the million mark? You make it very hard for me to want you to succeed. I still do, as in I don't have any desire to see someone fail.

I would have hoped you would have been humble enough (as humble as the guy who said "this film we made is disgustingly good" can be...) to admit that you have not yet actually succeeded at anything other than a four walling tour of your film in 4-5 cities, whose success is described in your own video as "disappointing" by the cast & crew on tour with it, and couldn't get a single college student to attend in a college town - none of that are my words, but your own from you video!

Look man, I don't know you and don't really care whether your movie makes a hundred billion dollars or a few nickels. My opinion stands - if you are offered a distribution deal with a studio versus Video On Demand self releasing a title - I still think anyone should take the distribution deal. It's worth more money in the long run and short run. That is my experience and that of most filmmakers who have made profit on their indie films have done. Be a trailblazer and do your own thing, but until you actually have a few hundred thousand dollars in from your plan, why not shut up and just focus on it? Why not be content with your victories? Are you hoping people like me and Cracker Funk will burn with envy when your movie gets picked up? I won't care any more than when a Michael Bay movie makes a few hundred million at the box office. It will still be a movie I won't see and it will have no affect on how I try to get my own movies distributed.

I just feel compelled to say I find in unconscionable that he is using Pink and Eminem without permission in his sizzle reel. Using songs without permission is done all the time - I find it reprehensible.

I just find it very amateur to use music without permission, especially in any kind of demo reel. That's just begging a site like YouTube to get the video flagged and removed for Terms of Service violations. It might even get their whole account banned. Is it really worth that kind of hassle to use music without permission?

I take him at his word that he has made his final post

Here we are months after the first few times he vowed never to post again....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2YAcXqLxFw

Where are the posts from the people in this video that are down to earth, realistically looking at the film and what's happening with distribution and the screenings? I would rather talk and with those guys.

If you don't want to hear Sonnyboo's opinion, don't title your thread with my name in it...

 

[David.rhsc]

Wow.

Wish I had seen this when it was happening the first time. Not because I would have wanted to participate, because I can always use the reminder that I'm actually *not* the biggest jerk on the planet.

Hmm.

When someone puts on the whole "No-one believed in me and I'm going to rub it in their faces once I get famous", they invariably all fail.

This. Having spent many years in that mentality (not with famous as the goal, but "I'll effing show them!") in my younger days I can tell you how it ends. Spoiler alert: Life is much better when one outgrows that mindset.

If you don't want to hear Sonnyboo's opinion, don't title your thread with my name in it...

Signature Worthy.

 

[Michael Allen]

He really says it all at the end of the reality show sizzle reel.

"Everything I do in my life is full of fights"

 

[brianluce]

What is VOD? Viral Online Dist?

Hey Gatwick, pretty gutsy turning down the money. I would have grabbed it. But, Sylvester Stallone was offered 450k for a spec script called ROCKY, he turned it down to maintain creative control. Again, were I Stallone, I would have grabbed the money.

But anyway, I don't think you're helping the publicity of the The Perfect House by starting a flame war here.

 

[sonnyboo]

What is VOD? Viral Online Dist?

VOD = VIDEO ON DEMAND, a pay-per-view service with most digital cable companies where you can select the movies, start them and play them like NETFLIX on Demand, and similar such. Netflix offers a flat fee, so you don't make any money no matter how many times the movie does (or does not) get played for a time period (like $5,000 for 2 years, etc.). Most cable combpanies like Comcast and Time Warner will encode and play your movie for free, but then you get a percentage of every time is plays, so the weight is on you to market the movie.

VOD is a growing business model, but it isn't making any filmmakers a ton of money yet. I do believe that GRATWICK is correct that in the future VOD will be the place where filmmakers can make up a lot of profit, but that is still several years away. Gareth Edwards did it with MONSTERS, releasing it on VOD before a theatrical run in several countries. MONSTERS still made the majority of its money from the traditional DVD/Blu Ray release and rentals.

Hey Gatwick, pretty gutsy turning down the money. I would have grabbed it. But, Sylvester Stallone was offered 450k for a spec script called ROCKY, he turned it down to maintain creative control. Again, were I Stallone, I would have grabbed the money.

I don't think anyone actually offered $1-$2 million for a video movie with no name stars. It is now being referred to as a "hypothetical" concept, although this conflicts with the op's statements about lawyers involved, offers made, etc. It's a veritable conundrum wrapped in an enigma smothered with secret sauce trying to figure out if the "thinking about turning down a studio offer.... only get $1-$2 million" was purely a fictional/hypothetical idea or something that actually happened.

Signature Worthy.

Now I'm considering it.

 

[sonnyboo]

videos of the tour

Where are THESE guys????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fv7nTa1T-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnLg2xwoRQ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD9EZKz7Ir8

I wish the people from the same movie talking in these videos would post about their experiences. This story is compelling. There is a great deal of honesty and humility in these videos.

Okay, this is probably the one guy posting here....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymj4Bq9NOj0

I'm only guessing, as in I don't know for sure, but THAT video has the bile and nastiness of these posts. The whole "F*** You Rutgers" has the classiness of this writing style. But even then, there was an openness and vulnerability that showed a human being with real feelings.

Man, I like the guys in the videos far better than the typed messages here. These guys are confident, but not the same bravado of the posts. The guys in the video aren't afraid to admit to mistakes and seek answers as to what they might be doing wrong.

It's hard to believe this is the same people posting here. As I already said, these videos might be the thing that becomes the big hit out of the whole thing. I find the vids intriguing and will now probably subscribe and watch the series as it unfolds. Mostly because in 3-4 years, if they continue, they might look back on this and say "Sonnyboo was right! It WAS First Time Feature Filmmaker Syndrome!", or if they are really really lucky, they can say "F** You Sonnyboo, we made millions of dollars with our hit film!". I don't know which one, but I might just sign up to find out.

 

[CamVader]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plWnm7UpsXk&feature=related

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Havg toured a fair bit with my band in the 90's, all I can say is "welcome to reality kids". Without a massive publicity machine or being a very well known quantity with a name people recognize the odds are your various stops will vary between "oh god I hope we make enough to eat tonight" and "whoo hooo! We can afford a motel room for the six of us so we can shower". VERY similar scenarios.

 

[directorik]

It's too bad the guy posting on behalf of this movie wasn't more
positive and professional. Like all of us here, I am interested in any
method to get a movie seen. It was the continuous negativity and
confrontational attitude and boasts of million dollar offers that just
turned me off.

I know he's not going to post again - I suspect he's still reading, so
I know he'll just see my best wishes as sarcastic. But I really do wish
these people great success with their movie. They all seem like genuinely
nice people with the one exception. Too bad the others weren't posting
here.

But he DID get us talking.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Id like to know more about this facebook VOD setup? Whats that about? How do I sign up?

 

[sonnyboo]

Id like to know more about this facebook VOD setup? Whats that about? How do I sign up?

They are looking for indie films like the Dark Knight from unknown filmmakers like Christopher Nolan....

 

[Gratwick Films]

They are looking for indie films like the Dark Knight from unknown filmmakers like Christopher Nolan....

Nothing condescending or deratory there. Can't imagine why I take such offense to your arrogant position of where my limits should be.


I know I said I wouldn’t be responding but I couldn’t resist myself. The irony of everyone’s positions in their posts is how many derogatory and attacking comments about me personally are being thrown around by a bunch of people accusing me of those exact positions.

Hypocrisy its not just the ugly step sister of denial.

The last two posts by Sonny were filled with personal insults, derogatory comments and condescending tones written with the intention of instigating.

I don’t give two shits if Sonny or anyone else agrees with my plan. From the beginning I have done nothing but attempt to show all of you there are other ways to do things not just the “right way” deemed and watched over by Sonny the gatekeeper.

I believe half of the supporters of Sonnys derogatory positions are just simply based on blind loyalty and half reads of posts.

Productive conversations with disagreeing parties do not include absolutes. Everything we are doing is fluid. Like one post said we are open to and asking for insight from anyone and anywhere and we use that info anyway we can to evolve and improve. Everything that Sonny types is filled with absolutes. Simple YOU CANT DO THAT or THAT’S NOT POSSIBLE. Maybe he didn’t flat out call me a “fool” and a “liar” but he did it every way a coward can without coming right out and saying it.

Funny how you try to manipulate and use our own words against us from the video’s yet you leave out the actual truth. Yes we were all very disappointed by the lack of attendance AT RUTGERS!!!!! A major reason for that as one of the other people in the video mentions is because every show was bigger than the one before it until Rutgers where we had been lead to believe we had a ton of cast and crew support so it was very demoralizing.

BUT – Like I have said from the beginning we are not looking to hide ANYTHING I want to show it all, the ups, downs, successes and the failures. That’s why the sizzle reel starts out by introducing the characters at their lowest point.

SIDENOTE – Sonny aka Mr. Industry from Columbus you continue to show YOUR arrogance that what you know and feel is in fact the ruling way things should be. NO ONE gives a shit your disgusted by our use of Eminem and Pink in the video.

IF you knew ANYTHING about the actual Hollywood industry going on thousands of miles from you someone would have been kind enough to tell you….THATS THE WAY ITS DONE!!!!

When ACTUALLY pitching something like say a Reality Show to say REAL PRODUCERS they WANT AND DEMAND popular music in the sizzle reel. Oh and as long as your not making a profit off the video you can most certainly use it.

If you would like I can have my entertainment attorney contact you directly and advise you of these opportunities.

One MAJOR misconception about our mini tour. IT WS NOTHING MORE THAN A DEMO A TEST OF OUR IDEAS. We had no marketing and did alot of things wrong to shoot ourselves in the foot. HELL that was the purpose of the TEST tour. We did how ever learn a few VERY important things.

1. With marketing our idea and plan WILL work
2. Critics and random people LOVE our movie and even more so our PLAN
3. Tweaking a few things the plan WILL work (mainly - making every screening FREE and hiring a publicist)

Our true marketing plan projects more than 60 MILLION IMPRESSIONS ( I CAN PROVE THIS IS HIGHLY CONSERVATIVE) for a total budget of 200k and that doesn't include a SINGLE bit of return from the publicists work.

Based on the profit rate from Flick Launch To turn a profit on our budget and marketing plan off NOTHING MORE THAN VOD we would need 100,000 views. That equates to less than .16% of those 60 million impressions watching the movie.

I don't need arrogance or insanity, i have FLAT OUT NUMBERS to back my position. Thanks to our tour I now have confessionals, reviews and RESULTS to back that position on a MUCH bigger scale. The mini tour you think and imply was a total failure endeared us to fans and won over investors. The result??

A tour bus wrapped in an ad for the release date starting in Buffalo and doing 34 shows in 34 cities while completing an entire lap around the country in 90 days giving away free PROMOTED screenings.

So what do you think Sonny you think a few reputable news outlets might cover something like that?

Few more quick counters –
1. The ONLY reason all the confessionals are positive is because we have yet to get a SINGLE bad one. I have the video from the Q&As where I beg and encourage ANYONE that didn’t like the film to please say that to the camera. I want to show some bad confessionals so people like you can’t play that card. Unfortunately I’m not going to make bad ones up just to appease you. So I APOLOGY there is no documented case of displeasure.

2. Same with the reviews, I put a link to my favorite not the only one. If YOU want to do the research to support YOUR position than DO IT. There are tons of them out there, good luck again finding a bad one. Feel free to visit www.hauntcast.com for the newest one. But the childish excuse of its some over seas tiny horror website is just sad. Has ANYONE overseas written about you projects?

3. The lack of publicity is just another LAZY attempt to attack. Google the film! We have had more than 100 articles, interviews, reviews and coverage around the world and we have more coming out everyday. Sorry Sonny you couldn’t do that on your own for “Snow Zombies” Seems from MY PERSONAL experiences if your film is good enough, everyone you contact will want to cover it. Funny thing is that’s exactly what we based our marketing plan on and its working.

PS - as long as we are forcing our limits of reality on each other I think your LAZY! I think if you made a better product and pushed it harder you wouldn't have such a bitter grasp on what you deem possible for indie filmmakers. Maybe the simple truth is your just not good enough to experience anything beyond what you have.

4. Funny how someone holds the 2,000 facebook fans as a derogatory number considering I have looked up the past 20 films currently being distributed by companies that have approached US, and not one of them had over 1,000.

5. For the interested person that asked to know more about the facebook platform. Its called Flick Launch and the owners name is Craig he is a great guy and strangely eager to help me prove exactly what I have been trying to scream over Sonny - VOD is not a someday weapon to indie filmmakers IT IS TODAY AND NOW, tomorrow all the skeptical Sonny’s will be doing it.

NOW the real reason I came on here.

I HAVE A CHALLENGE FOR YOU SONNY.

Seeing how you’re so desperate to continue to try and shove in my face the lack of profits we’ve made for a film you have been repeatedly told will not be released till October 1st I ask you give me the same opportunity to talk to you from that type of position.

I challenge you Sonny to a filmmaker debate about distribution held LIVE on ustream or any other host site that works for you ONE WEEK after my film is released on October 1st. Im challenging you NOW before a ton of people watch it and I look like I’m trying to stick it to you.

Right now whether I succeed or fail I will show my face online live and face the music, will YOU??

 

[Zensteve]

This is my final post

Come on, dude. You should have stuck to your guns right here.

 

[Utopia]

Yeah Gatwick, I agree with Steve.

You're pretty childish in your dealings. I'll dissuade anyone who brings your name up - IF they bring your name up. This is getting pretty bad.

 

[brianluce]

Nothing condescending or deratory there. Can't imagine why I take such offense to your arrogant position of where my limits should be.


?

That's not condescension or being derogatory, it's mere sarcasm and regret aimed at the state of affair in Facebook distro platforms. It's nothing aimed at you or Wheatgrinder, it's directed at Facebook.

You shouldn't take every comment in the most negative light imaginable.