Stabbing a dummy

[sfoster]

A character gets repeatedly stabbed in the back.

I'd like to put their shirt on some kind of dummy and get a few close up shots of the stabbing with some cool practical effects of the knife going in clean and then coming out with blood.

Any thoughts on the cheapest and/or best route to achieve this?

 

[sfoster]

Fine fine fine I will post a clip, you guys are taking the time to respond to my thread
No comments on hte sound okay

Close up of a knife thrusting in her back would be excellent inserted at the first cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jlCOpkIunQ

This dude really does come out of nowhere
It's a little embarrassing but no one will notice it in the greater context of the film (i think)

And we didn't have a long enough lens to sell the hit as much as I'd like.
I try not to stress out about it too much... Fat cop isn't the star, the superhero is who will carry the film.

 

[Sweetie]

sweetie you say use angles, etc to avoid "unnecessary time and expense of shooting a complex special effect. " but then you link a scene that took an ENITRE WEEK of full days of shooting to pull off. Would be hell of a lot faster to do a sfx than try to do a scene like the shower stabbing in psycho.

Do you really think you need an entire week to shoot a scene like that?

Either way, it's an example. Not once do you see her getting stabbed.

You can't tell whats going on so I need to do SOMETHING.

Get creative. Think like a director. How do you help the audience understand? Can you imply the action with showing the aftermath? By the look in one's eye? Blood dripping off the knife afterwards. Blood leaking away. etc.

 

[Sweetie]

I think more exaggerated movements from the masked villain would do you better than close ups of a stabbing. Perhaps a blood capsule from her mouth.

It's not very clear from the 8 seconds you showed to what you are trying to achieve. A jump scare?

 

[sfoster]

I think more exaggerated movements from the masked villain would do you better than close ups of a stabbing. Perhaps a blood capsule from her mouth.

It's not very clear from the 8 seconds you showed to what you are trying to achieve. A jump scare?

I'm trying to show her get stabbed to death and die.

 

[sfoster]

Get creative. Think like a director. How do you help the audience understand? Can you imply the action with showing the aftermath? By the look in one's eye? Blood dripping off the knife afterwards. Blood leaking away. etc.

Seriously I don't get it at all.

Wth is your problem with showing a knife going into someone's back. THAT's my solution, that's what i asked about. Blood on a knife after is not the solution, that's bad directing. The audience would be confused whats happening and what they are seeing until after it's done.

 

[Sweetie]

Wth is your problem with showing a knife going into someone's back. THAT's my solution, that's what i asked about.

Take a step back for a second. Breathe.

There's a difference between a question and a solution. Until you know how you're going to do it, you don't have a solution, only more questions or problems.

I'll restate this once again. I have nothing against you showing the stab itself. If you think this is your best option and you know how to achieve it, go do it!

Blood on a knife after is not the solution, that's bad directing. The audience would be confused whats happening and what they are seeing until after it's done.

You should have corrected Hitchcock. Not once did we see that knife entering the victim. Do you think that we have an entire audience confused about what happened?

Personally I think a stabbing + victim sound effects would be more than enough to sell the feeling you're trying to achieve. It's the cheapest, simplest and quickest fix that I can see.

If you want to go and shoot a special effect and have the spare budget, go shoot it. See how it mixes in. I was led to believe your budget/resources were limited.

It doesn't fix the "Where did this guy come from and why didn't the cop see it earlier" but for all I know, it may suit the overall feel of the film and be fine.

 

[Cracker Funk]

A character gets repeatedly stabbed in the back.

I'd like to put their shirt on some kind of dummy and get a few close up shots of the stabbing with some cool practical effects of the knife going in clean and then coming out with blood.

Any thoughts on the cheapest and/or best route to achieve this?

I think you can do it with non-explosive squibs, on a real person. Use a plastic retractable knife for the stabbings. Use the air-pressure style squib for safety. Get that timing down perfectly, do lots of test footage. Maybe shoot from a low angle?

 

[Cracker Funk]

Also, I'm with Sweetie. Keeping it off-screen could be more effective.

 

[Filman]

Good acting.

You can't really get away with showing the knife penetration anymore, because of the 180 degree rule. What you want is the cop's POV. Just before he gets his gun out you cut. Her stomach from the side. The guy can stab her twice so we see the knife repeatedly. With the streetlights the actress doesn't necessarily have to be there, you just hang the jacket over something that the stabber rocks. Then we see the cop again as he raises his gun.

 

[sfoster]

You should have corrected Hitchcock. Not once did we see that knife entering the victim. Do you think that we have an entire audience confused about what happened?

CLEARLY showing someone wildly swinging a knife for a minute while the other actor screams gets the message across, so why are you even bringing up this comparison? Are you trolling me ?

I can't take anything you say seriously with things like "You should have corrected Hitchcock." and your nonsensical questions about if knife waving for a minute clues the audience into the fact that there is a knife attack. YES focusing on a knife lets the audience know there is a knife.

That's my whole damn point of the thread and what I am trying to do. Show the knife.

The audience does not see a knife in that scene i posted. It's confusing to me. IMO they need to see it.
You feel they don't need to see it. Fine. We'll disagree there.

Sound effects won't do it. Reshooting with all my actors so they can swing a knife around and scream would do it but it's not on the table. Showing the knife makes it very simple and very clear.

A simple retractable knife is cheap and doesn't cost very much.

 

[sfoster]

I think you can do it with non-explosive squibs, on a real person. Use a plastic retractable knife for the stabbings. Use the air-pressure style squib for safety. Get that timing down perfectly, do lots of test footage. Maybe shoot from a low angle?

I don't think I need the blood. The blood barely shows up at night anyway, it's really hard to tell that it's blood on the knife when it's on the ground afterward.

Good acting.

You can't really get away with showing the knife penetration anymore, because of the 180 degree rule. What you want is the cop's POV. Just before he gets his gun out you cut. Her stomach from the side. The guy can stab her twice so we see the knife repeatedly. With the streetlights the actress doesn't necessarily have to be there, you just hang the jacket over something that the stabber rocks. Then we see the cop again as he raises his gun.

Thanks for the compliment on the acting.. I wish I was better in the scene that follows.. it's so hard trying to direct and act when you have no acting experience lol.

maybe I'm too close to this and if I come back and read this thread next week I'll have a different perspective.
The 180 rule makes it a little bit tricky but I'm sure there is an opportunity for an insert in there somewhere. Like you said perhaps the POV of the cop.

 

[sfoster]

Another solution would be to show the attacker crouched with the knife and sneaking up before he lunges.
I could probably avoid using the first angle where he attacks her from the left and then he wouldn't be coming out of nowhere anymore.

It's funny how it doesn't really show up on camera that the attackers only have one eye in their masks.

 

[mad_hatter]

Yeah, out of context it's not obvious that she has been stabbed. So you don't show the attacker before this? Have other people been stabbed? After the clip you've shown, you see the bloody knife on the ground? If so, your sound design may be able to fix this. Just before the attacker appears on screen, you could use the sound of the knife being drawn, even if there's no plausible source for the sound. It's a bit cliché, but it's a sound that audiences understand.

 

[directorik]

I'm fascinated that this question of practical effects has turned into a
social discussion of killing. And one of creativity. No one answers the
special effect question.

It's pretty simple really. There are several types of foams that can be
used; foams that will hold enough blood to get the look you want. Soak
the foam with the blood formula, cover it with plastic wrap, cover that
with the costume. In a CU it should look just fine. You'll need to try
different densities of foam and lighting will play an important part as
will sound effects. I've done this dozens of times as a special effects
guy.

 

[sfoster]

Yeah, out of context it's not obvious that she has been stabbed. So you don't show the attacker before this? Have other people been stabbed?

Correct this specific attacker was never seen beforehand... although he is more like a storm trooper.

One other person was stabbed, and there are 8 bodies on the ground as aftermath so the astute viewer will be able to guess, but i don't think the average viewer would pick up on it. they're all henchmen of the super villain.. wearing masks with only one eye-hole and carrying knives. they are out in force this night.

Knife unsheathing sound is a good one, thanks!

 

[sfoster]

I'm fascinated that this question of practical effects has turned into a
social discussion of killing. And one of creativity. No one answers the
special effect question.

It's pretty simple really. There are several types of foams that can be
used; foams that will hold enough blood to get the look you want. Soak
the foam with the blood formula, cover it with plastic wrap, cover that
with the costume. In a CU it should look just fine. You'll need to try
different densities of foam and lighting will play an important part as
will sound effects. I've done this dozens of times as a special effects
guy.

blood soaked foam, awesome.
i have a large block of high density polyurethane foam out in the garage!

Expensive stuff but it's torso sized and it's just been sitting there for 5 years now without purpose.. i knew one day it could come in handy.

Thanks!
I also found it curious how the discussion turned away from the simple question to creativity and other issues.

 

[Sasa]

I'm fascinated that this question of practical effects has turned into a
social discussion of killing. And one of creativity. No one answers the
special effect question.

In the age of torture porn, mass shootings and ISIS this modern ultraviolent media has exhausted everyone. I do not want to watch another killing, real or imagined, unless it's absolutely necessary. Many filmmakers feel this way. Aren't we all responsible for the images we create? We shouldn't be creating projects littered with mindless violence just because we can. There's a price to pay somewhere. And no, I'm not into Jesus or controlling artists. I'm just nauseated. Sick to my stomach.

 

[sfoster]

Sasa good thing this thread isn't about my horror script for abduction and psychological torture of a young woman

 

[sfoster]

I figured out where the henchman came from!! He was on the roof.
He hung down, dropped like a ninja then ran over with his knife

 

[gorillaonabike]

The cheap way is this is CU and as it's IndieTalk, we can get ghetto. My solution is based around:

Knife going in several times
Shirt with blood then soaking through
Need a few takes to get it right.
CU - Ultra Close Up.

What I would do is:

Shoot outside in an identical location.
Get some pieces of cloth closely resembling the shirt (cheap as there will be multiple takes)
Get an old couch (in a house clearance these can be free).
Cover the cushion bit of of the old couch with a blood pack and the cloth

There will be enough bits of the old couch that you can repeat lots of times.