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A very bad good person

W

wheatgrinder

Hi all,
I have a lead character that I want to build sympathy for via classic methods. Shes cute, shes smart, people like her, shes vulnerable, etc. However, in the end she lets a really bad thing to happen because of neglect.

I'm trying to cast my mind around for examples of the lead being perceived as a good person, then revealed as a really bad one. Specifically, how much "build up" to crazy is optimal..
 
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wheatgrinder said:
... However, in the end she lets a really bad thing to happen because of neglect.

I'm trying to cast my mind around for examples of the lead being perceived as a good person, then revealed as a really bad one. Specifically, how much "build up" to crazy is optimal..
Click to expand...
Specifically "why" is she "bad"?

Is she "bad" because she put herself into position to assume responsibility for X - and then lets a really bad thing happen?
Is she "bad" because she others assigned her a position of responsibility for X - and then lets a really bad thing happen, but they darn well should have known it but failed to perform due diligence?
Is she "bad" because she's a general f**k-up (BUT VERY NICE!) - and then lets a really bad thing happen to X?

Just how much willful intent and/or neglect can be assigned to her and/or the other parties involved?

Also, is the genré for this a comedy, dramedy, drama, romcom, suspense/thriller, horror, or other?

Are we talking 'Her Alibi' or 'Obsessed'?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097500/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1198138/


Oh, and then there's Goldie Hawn's character in 'Housesitter', she's an adorable scamp, but not really a BAD bad person, just a little nutty.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104452/?ref_=sr_1
 
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rayw said:
Specifically "why" is she "bad"?

Is she "bad" because she put herself into position to assume responsibility for X - and then lets a really bad thing happen?
Is she "bad" because she others assigned her a position of responsibility for X - and then lets a really bad thing happen, but they darn well should have known it but failed to perform due diligence?
Is she "bad" because she's a general f**k-up (BUT VERY NICE!) - and then lets a really bad thing happen to X?

Just how much willful intent and/or neglect can be assigned to her and/or the other parties involved?

Also, is the genré for this a comedy, dramedy, drama, romcom, suspense/thriller, horror, or other?

Are we talking 'Her Alibi' or 'Obsessed'?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097500/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1198138/
Click to expand...

Thanks Rayw. That helps.


Its not this, but its sorta this:

A nice woman, a bit lonely from the recent death of her man, gladly assumes custody of a super cute baby panda bear (super young still needs to be bottle fed etc) then becomes interested in video games! To make it easier to play video games, she puts the bear to bed with an automatic feeder, then she can play all night.. this of course escalates to greater acts of depravity towards the bear, as she herself become more disconnected from reality.. it does not have a happy ending..

Is this horror, say if the bear was a HUMAN BABY!




I don't now if its quite horror or just ah man thats wrong
 
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Sounds like that scene out of 'Trainspotting'.


Given custody and care of a baby panda, eh?
Hmm... that's kinduva stretch for an otherwise unqualified person.
But then again, there could be a 'Side Effects' sort of unintended consequences spin on this as well.

Honestly, I'd saw screwit and make it a human baby.
Lord knows that'd be more plausible and more compelling to most.
And DEFINITELY horror. Perfect for an indie film.
 
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And just for reference you might wanna give 'Grace' (if you can find it) a spin.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1220213/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3


This is beginning to look like a descent into madness sort of film.
These tend to be slow burners as the situation winds and binds into an empathetic explosion.
I don't really care for developing stories (I like my chocolate bars to taste good from first to last bite), so I can't offer much help on pacing.
Might wanna do some story structure homework on how those are paced from beginning to end.
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=49269

GL!
 
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Being a short would help. :yes:
Under 10min would be good.
I loathe the 21minute "shorts". :lol: WTH?! Short, my eye!

Since you were asking about how to build up to crazy is it fair to guess this story is still in the formative stage?
No real act or story structure nailed down?

Might be something good here: http://www.shortoftheweek.com/category/genre/horror/




How does the protag get custody of the baby to begin with?
Under what conditions?
 
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When I first read this thread, I thought you were going for an angle where the audience TOTALLY identified with the protagonist 100%, and then the hero does something acutely tragic and the audience FEELS that gut-wrenching regret, pain, and torment along with the main character.

That sounded really cool to me.

Chronic baby-neglect, not as powerful to me.

But that is just my own personal opinion, and I have weird tastes. I mean, Hanibal Lecter seems likable enough, right?

Also, Beavis and Butthead were much beloved but very irresponsible. I have never seen the show, but I am told people dig "the Bay Harbor Butcher," too. The Stay-Puft Marshmellow Man was also kinda cute, but had some rather destructive habits. And Rhoda Penmark looked just like Cindy Brady. You're probably talking more about a Leonard Shelby type than a Alessa Gillespie character. Gilgamesh was a hero, but a tyrant, but was later redeemed. Boba Fett and Anakin Skywalker started off alright, but they fell into the hands of a writer/producer/director with limited skills and wound up pretty messed up. Cute little Manny Hefley is one to watch out for, too. Rachel Newman... um, yeah.
 
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my approach would be the protagonist finally has a chance to achieve their goal, so they neglect everything else in their life to that end.
 
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Ah, this is just as good of an excuse as any to watch 'Requiem For A Dream' as any!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBnd36bIV0o
 
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wheatgrinder said:
Hi all,
I have a lead character that I want to build sympathy for via classic methods. Shes cute, shes smart, people like her, shes vulnerable, etc. However, in the end she lets a really bad thing to happen because of neglect.

I'm trying to cast my mind around for examples of the lead being perceived as a good person, then revealed as a really bad one. Specifically, how much "build up" to crazy is optimal..
Click to expand...

You're dealing with the topic of addiction. While you can make a good story from it, I personally avoid story angles where the protagonists story doesn't revolve around making an string of choices to reach the outcome. The end result can be good and different morality tale, like Leaving Las Vegas, though this sounds different.

By the sound of what you're trying to accomplish, as a filmmaker, you run the real risk of alienating your audience away from investing in you. Consider it like this: You're asking the audience to emotionally invest in your protagonist, try to get them to like her, attach to her and instead of a payoff ending, her addictions have grave consequences to a dependent. Some people like those stories, just be aware, most people don't.

The how? It'd be similar to how you'd make an antagonist somewhat likable. Introduce their desires and rationalization for their decisions. Make them charismatic, interesting and relatable to your intended audience. If your audience is male and your lead is a good looking female will help. Make sure your camera work and editing is smooth in your build up.

That being said, it does sound interesting to how you pull it off.
 
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I think you're over-thinking it. In real life, good people sometimes do really bad things. I think you just treat her like any other character that you want the audience to like. Make her like-able. Period.

And then she does a bad thing. It'll break our hearts. And that's kinda the point, no?
 
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I think Sweetie's right.
It'll be really easy to alienate your audience.

And you probably not ought to end it with "... the baby dies and she goes to jail."
Maybe she's in jail telling her story to other inmates and she's repentant, trying to get her class to repent for their sins.
But you can't be too heavy handed with any sort of morality teaching, either.

'Flight' ended sorta that way.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1907668/?ref_=sr_1

Another nice guy that was really a baddy film is another DWashington film, 'American Gangster.'
Works his way to top dog position, looses it all. The life. The family. Gone.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765429/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Lucas somewhat redeems himself by ratting out his own organization as well as burning down the dirty cops in the police department.

What's your girl gonna do?


FWIW, adult women usually don't become stereo typically addicted to console games, like XBox and PS3s, but I've seen 'em at work crackin' out on Candy Crush on their smartphones.
http://www.heavy.com/games/2013/07/what-is-candy-crush-saga-facebook-mobile-puzzle-game/
I understand people pay to move up levels they're unable to pass through playing themselves.

Maybe after burning through her own income your anti-protag can start using baby's food money for leveling up.
Start thinning the formula and baby food with water.
Baby begins suffering from the subtle effects of malnutrition.
To keep baby settled she dopes it up with Benadryl.
She's been up for thirty-something hours straight binge playing, cracked-up on pseudophedrin HCL (speed), she breaks through a level she's obsessed over for a week and crashes asleep ecstatic!, can't wake up.
Doped up baby's diaper rash has gone septic two days ago, goes into seizures while she's exhausted, chokes on it's own gastric juice vomit or tongue-bite blood. (Whichever you can tolerate.)
She wakes up and... makes the situation even worse: he hides the body. Shoe box. Freezer. Back yard burial. Whatever you think will just effing horrify the most number of people.
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...=baby+dies+of+malnutrition+-vegetarian+-vegan
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...e=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=ZNkBUoimC4-m9gSyhYGgBA

"Dingo" the Chihuahua? Yick.

4622134944_dingobaby20_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg
 
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It sounds like it might depend on what you'll be trying to say. Is it that playing video games causes her to go bad, bad enough to neglect her child to death? Will it be a sort of Reefer Madness, only with video game "addiction." Probably no one has to tell you that you'll be alienating a large part of the population from the get-go. But then, I supposed you'd be endearing the film to a different and a to large portion of the population, as well.

You say that she loses touch with reality. Does that mean some kind of psychosis --something like schizophrenia? Or will it be something drug induced? Or does video game addiction cause her to become psychotic?

Is your audience an audience that's looking for a public-service-message-like story, again, along the lines of Reefer Madness? If so, then I would guess that there needs to be very little build-up. Such an audience will be ready and eager to believe that such extreme behaviour follows quickly from video game playing.

Is your audience a more general audience? If so, then I should think that you need quite a bit of build-up, as in a lot, or as in very persuasive. Then I would think you might want to look at the already mentioned Trainspotting. In this kind of scenario, I'm sure that you need to carefully portray the mother's deterioration due to drugs or mental illness or whatever. Otherwise, I have to think that this audience is going to be quite resistant to a chain of cause and effect that goes something like this: Heartbroken women adopts baby (keeping in mind that, well, it's my impression, anyway, that it's no easy feat to get qualified to adopt a child) --->Mother gets hooked on video game playing---->Mother is too busy playing to provide basics needs to baby---->Consequently, the baby dies in its crib while mother plays Halo.

Only one example has popped into my head at the moment, and that's the highly potent sequence and
ultimately tragic scene
in The Joy Luck Club in which a mother,
exhausted and distraught from continual emotional abuse from her husband, allows her baby to drown while giving him a bath. But, the film in no way villianizes that mother. It's simply heartbreaking and very sad.

Can't wait to see what you do with it.
 
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Intresting idea, I think you can build sympothay for her fairly easily but it will be a kind of conflicted one as what she is doing can be justified through the death of her last relationship and the gaming is a form of escapeism, but the results do not justify it.

I think you cant get away from here being portrayed as a bad character, but you can controll the perception of her a bit by showing the film throug her eyes. Prehaps in her eyes she is doing fine and the baby is getting fed etc but in reality the baby is not which you can show at the end. Or alternativly the character has a potential turning point where the audience can have hope she is a good character then turn and she regresses bk in to the game.

FWIW, adult women usually don't become stereo typically addicted to console games, like XBox and PS3s, but I've seen 'em at work crackin' out on Candy Crush on their smartphones.
Click to expand...

No not to xbox etc but they can do to PC games, biggest culprit is World of Warcraft where this niglect has actually happened and people have dided playing this game.

Hope this all is usefull, im writing in a rush :)
 
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To me it sounds like the main character finds something that leads her to change from being caring & nurturing to someone who becomes somewhat selfish and only seems to focus mostly on herself while gradually greowing more and more neglectful
 
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Be very careful with protagonists who do bad things. I know a recent indie film that had some nice festival play and limited distribution, but they had to do a lot of reshoots and tinkering, because once the film was shot and cut, and they started to get negative feedback from people they trusted.

Basically, people were saying, "After (protaganist) did this really bad thing, I didn't give a crap what the heck happened to her and I kind of tuned out of the movie and resented that I had even spent time with this sociopath."

They did a LOT of reshoots of the ending, and even wrote and shot some brand new "Save the Cat" type scenes to get it to a point where the feedback started to turn a corner and become more of the complex character portrait they wanted.

Like I said, they did eventually have a nice festival run and got distribution. And even then, some reviewers and audience members at festival talkbacks thought the film lost them with its tricky protagonist.

I say this as a cautionary tale. Try hard to catch this stuff in the script stage, not in the editing stage.
 
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