Why do commercial film clients Always try to underpay?

[Nate North]

Warning: somewhat of a rant

One of the most aggravating things I face as a content professional is dealing with people who try to value film work around the $10 an hour range.

If you look at professional rates, 1000-2600 a day is pretty standard, and yet I get 60% of clients leaving angry if I won't sign up for 200 hours of work for $50 and a cookie.

Why are people willing to pay a high school dropout construction worker more than someone that went through 4 years of film school and invested 100k?

I made a commercial for a company that they put on national television once and charged them 1k. They told me they had paid $25,000 for the sign on the front of their building, which took 3 guys a day to put up, and then insinuated that I had overcharged them at a grand for a week.

Why do people look down on our profession? Why is it ok to pay any moron off the street 20k for unskilled labor, and unthinkable to pay a filmmaker scale wage?

Why do people see advertising as .1% of their budget?

I've never heard of someone asking a carpenter to work for 10% scale. Unthinkable.

 

[indietalk]

All I can say is don't budge on your rate and if you do quality work the work will come to you. If I get three estimates on a service I don't go for the cheapest, I go by references, gut feeling, and portfolio, etc.

 

[SinEater]

I completely understand where you're coming from; it's extremely frustrating. In my market $1000 a day is generally a pipe dream for most jobs, even if you shoot on a RED. I recently met a guy on a shoot who was ecstatic to have a job coming up paying him $800/day. He was providing himself, a RED ONE MX kit, and a HMI light/grip kit. His light kit alone is worth that.

 

[Nate North]

I completely understand where you're coming from; it's extremely frustrating. In my market $1000 a day is generally a pipe dream for most jobs, even if you shoot on a RED. I recently met a guy on a shoot who was ecstatic to have a job coming up paying him $800/day. He was providing himself, a RED ONE MX kit, and a HMI light/grip kit. His light kit alone is worth that.

Poor guy, that is so unreasonable. He could stay home and rent out that MX for 1200 a day.

Sadly I'm afraid that's what I'll end up doing much of the time. I can get 2600 a day to just rent someone my kit, but if they want me and the kit, the offer drops to 900 a day. I just tell them to take a flying leap, but sometimes bills have to be paid and I'm forced into it. Just seems unfair, really more like a slap in the face and a degradation of everything I've worked for.

I go to the doctor, and they charge me $3500 for a 10 minute appointment featuring high cost items such as gauze pads and ibuprofen. When I ask how they justify charging that, they say, I had to go through years of education, so now I deserve this. I have to pay off my expensive equipment, and so I charge you crazy amounts for nothing.

My question is, what about my 5 years education, what about my expensive equipment? How is it that a doctor spends 2-3x as much on setup and school, and deserves 50x the pay?

 

[DangerDigital]

I used to work for this small tire shop. same thing. they were going to spend $15000 on a sign and nothing on advertising, thinking the sign would be enough. I was like "ARE YOU HIGH?! that sign is vinyl graphics on a sheet of plastic, I could do that!" and I did. Bought a cheap vinyl plotter for $300, a big sheet of plastic for $250 and made it. Not even a thank you from them... this is also after building them a free website that I would value at no less than $1500. The only thing they said about that was that it took me too long. I literally did it in 2 days.

So when business sucked, I told them they need to invest in advertising. Radio, TV, whatever. They weren't having it. What they ended up doing was winning a deal from a radio station for a free commercial and have it played like 10 times or something.

after all that, they were broke, had to lay me off.

I would like to point out that they hired me to mount and balance tires. lol.

They closed after a year, and dumping their entire retirement into the place.


I mean, it might have something to do with the economy. But it doesn't help your business much if you have no sense, are a complete jerk, dont value what people do for you, and dont invest where its necessary.

 

[dlevanchuk]

because people think filmmaking is an easy gig. Point 200 dollar camera, press big red button, and quickly cut the video on a laptop.

"what do you mean your microphone cost you $1200 dollars?? i saw one at radio shack for 30 bucks!"

"i can buy HD camera at best buy, and make the same movie/commercial!"

I had conversation with a coworker today about how difficult it is to make a top quality movie. So much work is being put into something, that most people never notice: sound, lights, dialogs... so naturally, people assume this is an easy task to make a video!

just my 2 rubles.

 

[Nate North]

I used to work for this small tire shop. same thing. they were going to spend $15000 on a sign and nothing on advertising, thinking the sign would be enough. I was like "ARE YOU HIGH?! that sign is vinyl graphics on a sheet of plastic, I could do that!" and I did. Bought a cheap vinyl plotter for $300, a big sheet of plastic for $250 and made it. Not even a thank you from them... this is also after building them a free website that I would value at no less than $1500. The only thing they said about that was that it took me too long. I literally did it in 2 days.

So when business sucked, I told them they need to invest in advertising. Radio, TV, whatever. They weren't having it. What they ended up doing was winning a deal from a radio station for a free commercial and have it played like 10 times or something.

after all that, they were broke, had to lay me off.

I would like to point out that they hired me to mount and balance tires. lol.

They closed after a year, and dumping their entire retirement into the place.


I mean, it might have something to do with the economy. But it doesn't help your business much if you have no sense, are a complete jerk, don't value what people do for you, and don't invest where its necessary.

A classic tale, and a situation I've been in more than once.

It's hard to understand where they're coming from. Sounds like you saved them $14,000 but no bonus, no thanks? Why not give you 7k and call it a win win. There seems to be this psychology that content creators are worthless, even when that worth is clearly visible.

Free website in 2 days? No appreciation? Complaints? Yet not a word of argument with the 15k sign contractors.

@Chuck I fear that you are right, but what do we do about it? I can't put my parents in a cut rate medical facility because some jackass is too stupid to know what my job entails. I know a commercial fisherman makes enough to retire on, so why should educated hardworking people be forced to live paycheck to paycheck? Truck driver makes 300k a year, do they actually think this is easier work than driving? I never had to learn the mathematics behind nonlinear arrays to drive.

 

[PaulGriffith]

Because some people are willing to accept $200 for a 40 hour project. Cheap cameras and software hurt the business as much as they helped. You got guys quoting projects using RED and guys using handicams. The cheap guys probably won't do as good of a job, but when people only look at bottom line and honestly have no insight into the industry, of course they expect it cheap.

I usually quote projects at a few grades and explain why they get.

Option A: $5k, top of the line gear, dedicated experienced crew blah blah down to option C: $1K, a cheap camera and a light or two. When I break it down that way and explain what they're paying for most people choose the mid range funny enough.

The high end clients are out there. I do take a cheap job here and there if I like the people or I'm bored.

 

[SinEater]

Poor guy, that is so unreasonable. He could stay home and rent out that MX for 1200 a day.

To be fair, the job was DPing an indie feature, so I think he agreed to the rate mostly for the credit, not the actual money.

 

[rayw]

Supply. Demand. Sytem.

If someone totaly screws up a difficult shoot (and there are different totalities of screwing up) most everyone goes home physically intact, not permanantly impaired, or dead.

If your family physician misdiagnosis a rare disease-of-the-week resulting in some disfavorable outcome, well... People are funny about their health.

And while there may be AAA, AA, A, B & a few C grade physicians out there, the gammut of filmmakers et al is considerably broader on the downside.

This gets to the supply side. There is an overabundant supply of time consuming entertainment which lowers the demand for any one source.

Because of healthcare's fundamental demand the insurance subsidizes a great amount, which is offset with co-pays, & govt' assistance.

 

[DangerDigital]

Because some people are willing to accept $200 for a 40 hour project. Cheap cameras and software hurt the business as much as they helped. You got guys quoting projects using RED and guys using handicams. The cheap guys probably won't do as good of a job, but when people only look at bottom line and honestly have no insight into the industry, of course they expect it cheap.

I usually quote projects at a few grades and explain why they get.

Option A: $5k, top of the line gear, dedicated experienced crew blah blah down to option C: $1K, a cheap camera and a light or two. When I break it down that way and explain what they're paying for most people choose the mid range funny enough.

The high end clients are out there. I do take a cheap job here and there if I like the people or I'm bored.

Thats actually probably the best way to do it.

I think in general people just want options, if you dont give them options and explain them, they will make their own to feel in charge. One of those options might be to talk down your craft and say the kid down the street can do it in his basement for a third of the cost with a camera he made out of paper towel rolls, paper mache, and a VHS rewinder he got on ebay 3 years ago.

also I think the Scotty rule always applies. You know how he always needed 10 hours to fix the warp drive? but when Kirk told him to do it faster he got it done in an hour? He never needed 10 hours, he was bluffing. he only needed 30 minutes and a government mandated smoke break. So never quote the customer for the actual hours it will take. Double it. That way, when you get done in half the time, its just because you worked extra hard for an important client.

 

[DeJager]

Why do sport athletes make $20 MILLION a sport-year when neurosurgeons make $90,000 to $600,000 (depending on work setting)?? One is paid millions of dollars for playing a fricken game and the other who spent 9 years of college is paid peanuts (in comparison) saving lives and making the world better.

We may never know why

 

[directorik]

A good friend of mine - an experienced DP - swings a hammer to
make ends meet. He’s freelance and is ALWAYS being asked to work
for far less than his day rate. Usually in the $10/$12/hr range.

I don’t believe it’s as simple as people looking down on our
profession. I believe it is considerably more complicated than
that. I believe the base reason is most people just don’t
understand what we do. And they have a relative with a camera and
computer who can do it.

Of course you and I know that’s BS - but they don’t know that.

And as long as there are people with a camera and computer willing
to work for $200/wk., freelance professionals accepting first time
clients will come face to face with sticker shock.

I suspect (with no proof) that when these people went sign hunting
the 25k quote was the lowest they got. If they shopped around for
a prodCo to do the commercial your $1,000/wk. quote was higher
than some kid with a camera and computer they found on Mandy or
craigslist.

 

[kari]

When I was inquiring about filming my own commercial for around here the cable company suggested I go pro for $800.00. My first thought was '800 is cheap!' and they told me for that amount of money they will do everything for me. Well thats not what I wanted because I want to do it myself but it got me thinking.

Lets see, setting up your camera for one shot outside. Setting up camera on tripod and using a steadicam inside in addition to lighting. Lets not forget sound and mics and booms.
Assuming that all went over well then they go back to their studio and edit it all down to 30 seconds adding music.

I was thinking at the time that I cannot imagine a pro doing that for under a grand.

But as I mentioned my intention is to do this all myself but was shocked at how cheap it is to have someone else DO IT ALL.

 

[kari]

Why do sport athletes make $20 MILLION a sport-year when neurosurgeons make $90,000 to $600,000 (depending on work setting)?? One is paid millions of dollars for playing a fricken game and the other who spent 9 years of college is paid peanuts (in comparison) saving lives and making the world better.

We may never know why

Its all money. The athlete can bring in big dough to companies like Coke and Wheaties oh yeah and Nike (the most over rated sport shoe in the world but thats just me).
If you go out and buy the Nike shoe because Sportydude was wearing it for 30 seconds (oh yeah and he gets all the other fringe benefits too) then he did his job and so did you.

So be a sport player or a politician and you will have it made.

 

[SinEater]

When I was inquiring about filming my own commercial for around here the cable company suggested I go pro for $800.00. My first thought was '800 is cheap!' and they told me for that amount of money they will do everything for me. Well thats not what I wanted because I want to do it myself but it got me thinking.

Lets see, setting up your camera for one shot outside. Setting up camera on tripod and using a steadicam inside in addition to lighting. Lets not forget sound and mics and booms.
Assuming that all went over well then they go back to their studio and edit it all down to 30 seconds adding music.

I was thinking at the time that I cannot imagine a pro doing that for under a grand.

But as I mentioned my intention is to do this all myself but was shocked at how cheap it is to have someone else DO IT ALL.

The cable company is subsidizing the cost of production with the money they will make from airing the commercial. Of course, the commercial will also likely be shot by some guy right out of school making little more than a Best Buy employee.

 

[kari]

The cable company is subsidizing the cost of production with the money they will make from airing the commercial. Of course, the commercial will also likely be shot by some guy right out of school making little more than a Best Buy employee.

Oh no. Its not the cable company that will produce the ad, they will give me the name of Joe Schmo who will put it together for me for 800. I was even wondering if the cable company gets a cut from Joe Schmo for refering him (doubt it though).

 

[CamVader]

I'm going to do my best to ignore the superiority complex that got things started. Any schmuck off the street, huh? I really don't feel bad for people with this attitude. The stereotypes are swinging wildly in both directions; one by assumption and the other by example.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Even some people who work closely with the industry don't understand what we do. On one day, during a slow lunch at the restaurant I work at, I had the great misfortune of having to suffer through overhearing a group of ad execs talk about the future of film editing. These people seriously thought that a computer program might end up taking over for human editors. Because, in their view, editing is simply selecting the best take of each shot (and a computer can do that, apparently).

A lot of people think that anyone can do this. They don't realize that what you do is both a skill, and an art, and that you are at the top of your game.

 

[SinEater]

Oh no. Its not the cable company that will produce the ad, they will give me the name of Joe Schmo who will put it together for me for 800. I was even wondering if the cable company gets a cut from Joe Schmo for refering him (doubt it though).

Interesting. I know a local cable company that produces it's own commercials for cheap by subsidizing the cost with air time income. It's also how most local TV stations operate.