What are the issues with using real weapons on set?

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stef

I will assume all responses come with the "I'm not responsible for your idiocy or accidents, and I don't advocate weapons on set" disclaimer. I would certainly rather use action replica guns, but those replicas are not that cheap (and the ones that are cheap, look cheap).

I realize that things like knives you have to be ultra-careful with, especially if the talent starts getting excited. I've always considered knives much more dangerous to video than guns, since guns can be turned into a simple chunk of metal (basically a rock), while knives always remain dangerous in range of other talent. I have used a real knife on set and we were extremely careful, making sure any stabbing action done was out of frame while the actor had an empty hand.

I'm asking how many people have used real weapons (unloaded and made as safe as possible) on set, and anything inobvious I might need to worry about, besides obvious issues like some idiot bringing ammo.

What about things like removing the firing pin, or somehow occluding the chamber (like a ball of gaffer tape)? Or is it just a horrible idea at pretty much all times?

(Some background: firearms are completely legal where I live with no issues, and I'm well-trained in use, breakdown, and maintenance. I'm worried about safety, as I have a HUGE aversion to allowing anyone to point even an unloaded firearm at someone else without serious protection in place.)
 
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That cop is a moron. Firstly, who the hell brings a loaded weapon into a classroom to demonstrate "gun safety" -- and second, if you don't know how to safely handle a firearm, WTF are you doing teaching how to safely handle a firearm?! Finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, jackass ... I don't care if you KNOW it's unloaded, that's firearm handling 101.

[/rant]

stef said:
What about things like removing the firing pin, or somehow occluding the chamber (like a ball of gaffer tape)? Or is it just a horrible idea at pretty much all times?

(Some background: firearms are completely legal where I live with no issues, and I'm well-trained in use, breakdown, and maintenance. I'm worried about safety, as I have a HUGE aversion to allowing anyone to point even an unloaded firearm at someone else without serious protection in place.)
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Removing the firing pin would be an excellent plan. Also you want to have someone dedicated to keeping track of them the entire time they're on set -- preferably an actual armorer. Check between each take that they are in fact unloaded. Redundant, and overly cautious yes -- better than the alternative.

Your aversion is well warranted.

Being well trained, you know why. For the benefit of other who are less versed..

Basic firearm safety:
  • Keep you finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire
  • Only point your weapon at something you intend to destroy
  • Be aware of your target, and what lies beyond it

There are a few other points but those are definitely the big three.

I would also suggest some weapons training for your actors. Not only will they get this safety stuff drilled into them, but they'll actually appear to know what they're doing handling a weapon on screen, because, well -- they will know that. :)
 
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"Unintentional Deaths and Injuries
In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people.
From 2005-2010, almost 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.

Over 1,300 victims of unintentional shootings for the period 2005–2010 were under 25 years of age.

People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.

A federal government study of unintentional shootings found that 8% of such shooting deaths resulted from shots fired by children under the age of six."​
http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

Another way of looking at that last stat is that 92% unintentional shooting were by people older than six years old.
Probably safe to guess most were by people between teen and forty.

It's just not worth the risk.

UNINTENTIONAL shootings got that name by being unintentional.
You don't INTEND to shoot anyone, right?

There is no "good" answer making the use of a real firearm on set an acceptable practice.

Anyone who chooses to work with any kind of "treated" firearm on set is unprofessional, cast or crew.

It's just a f#cking film.
Filmmaking doesn't NEED real firearms on set anymore than God NEEDS real poisonous snakes at church.
 
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The only time it's in any way acceptable for a real firearm to be on set is if the firearm needs to be fired. In which case, a qualified, experienced armourer should be brought on board to handle the weapon.

It's really just not worth the risk - no matter how many lengths you go to to ensure the weapon is 'safe' I still wouldn't set foot on your set until I knew there were trained professionals handling it.
 
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stef said:
(Some background: firearms are completely legal where I live with no issues ...
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I'm not sure there wouldn't be any legal issues, even with extremely liberal gun ownership laws! In the UK and other countries it would be a criminal offence to own a firearm or use one for filming (without a certified armourer in charge). In the US, while it might not be a criminal offence, it could end up being the equivalent of a civil offence. Although I don't know for sure, I can't imagine you would find a film insurer in the US who wouldn't make it a condition of their cover to have an armourer present when using firearms. Of course you could shoot without insurance and therefore also without an armourer but I would think in many (if not all) jurisdictions, if there were some sort of accident then your failure to employ an armourer could make you at least partly legally responsible/liable.

G
 
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Remove the firing pin.
Have one person who is responsible for the weapon all
day – no one but the armorer and the actor ever touches
the gun. The armorer keeps the gun in a locked box in a
locked vehicle when the gun is not in use.
Make sure there is no live ammo on the set or location.


I have never had a gun mishap on a set I've worked on. I
have, however, had accidents with bladed weapons. So in
my, personal, experience having a gun on set is far safer
than having a bladed weapon. Got a few "doh!" stories
involving the Freddy's hero glove...
 
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I'm planning on using a gun for the filming tomorrow.. but it will be unloaded and is never pointed at a human being.

Real guns should never be pointed at anyone .. and it shouldn't be held by someone that has no experience because they will do dumb things like 'sweeping the room' where they accidentally point the gun at everyone around them.

One competent person needs to be responsible for handling the gun. They hand it off to the actor and immediately take it back when the scene is over. Tomorrow on my set i have a trained pistol instructor and an off duty federal police officer
 
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I'm as pro gun as you can get, but I have always used prop guns on my sets. No reason to let a moron give the left more ammo ;=) Even with a pro on set to handle and control the weapons accidents can happen. Brandon Lee, Jon-Erik Hexum to name a couple.
 
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stef said:
I'm asking how many people have used real weapons (unloaded and made as safe as possible) on set
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Plenty of realistic pistols made from hard rubber (for distant background). Plenty of non-functional props. Some collector pieces with a ball-bearing welded into the ammo slot to prevent loading completely. The vast majority of the time, the guns are never even used or handled in scene. It's just dressing, really. Actually in the Props department.

The very few times the hero guns have been used in action, the presence of an armorer is unmistakeable. There's frequent vocal reminders for cast/crew's safety, and the gun is recalled after each take for a reload & check by said armorer.

anything inobvious I might need to worry about, besides obvious issues like some idiot bringing ammo.
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Yup, the idiot background who'll wander off set with their phony guns on a walkaway lunch. I'd think Property ought to be collecting them at times like that, but it doesn't always happen. Never let your phony guns out of the responsible party's sight!


Will Vincent said:
if you don't know how to safely handle a firearm, WTF are you doing teaching how to safely handle a firearm?!
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Idiots are put in positions of authority and responsibility all the time. :huh: The only qualification you need for most guns is to be 'Merican... and they come in all kinds of flavours. :bag:
 
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I had a scene out in downtown seattle parking lot where an actor had to sit down into a car and pullout a gun (a rubber replica) out of a bag to threaten a driver. during downtime he decided to pull out the gun and pretend to "shoot" her fellow actors on a parking lot. When i asked him to put away the gun, he said "why, its not real".... Luckily, this did not escalate.

So yea, keep weapons away, even if its just a rubber.

Unless you're in texas!
 
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Good advice above.

...also remember that there have been dozens of incidents of people calling the police when guns have been used on outdoor shoots. A few members here have commented on their personal experience of being involved in such events.
 
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I think that might've been responding to cryogenic's post from tx about giving the left more ammo. I'm not worried about politics and it should simply be ignored in this thread. I'm interested in safety, and I believe everyone here is, too.

An excellent point was raised about difficulty getting insurance and being responsible for mishaps. Thanks for responses, too. I will see if any friends have airsoft guns.
 
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There are plenty of airsoft guns that are cheap, based on real models, and have comparable weight to them. Just paint the orange tip black. And if you're worried about gun nuts spotting a fake, don't show the barrel size up close.

Honestly, if you're shooting something low budget... is having a REAL gun really going to sell your film that much better? It's not worth the risk.
 
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moonshieldmedia said:
Honestly, if you're shooting something low budget... is having a REAL gun really going to sell your film that much better? It's not worth the risk.
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Actually, it's because I have access to many weapons. Using real weapons would save me money. :)

But honestly, investing in some good airsoft replicas and some hard rubber pistols might not be a bad idea for this and future films. I can always have an ECU sliding across a real weapon in a highly controlled environment, and insert that into the actor's footage.

I think I got my answer.

edit: thank you all. Many filmmakers say it's a bad idea, but I never knew exactly why it was a bad idea if you control for the obvious. Guns are just tools, but misusing them tends to be more fatal than, say, a hammer. It looks like it's the inobvious stuff, inattention, and uneducated people on set that can be a problem. Plus I really don't want to lose my house because I didn't account for someone else being an idiot.
 
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