The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey


Interesting. I completely disagree with you, of course ;) I can't comment on the HFR stuff as I haven't seen HFR yet.

It's not LOTR - and in fact it was never meant to be, The Hobbit is an adventure book, LOTR is an adventure/war book, with the films focussing more on the wars than the adventure. But I still found The Hobbit to be great, I enjoyed the tie-ins with LOTR, indeed it felt like it was really setting the films up, something that Lucas completely missed with the Star Wars prequels (for example).

I also think the script is really solid, perhaps not quite at the same level as LOTR, but not much worse; I certainly wouldn't say it's a movie devoid of subtext, if that's what you're implying.
 
It's not a lack of subtext, it was just a travesty of story, dialog, and music scoring, which I covered in my review. :)

Seriously, I could write better dialog in my sleep.

(These same problems are also present in the LOTR trilogy, just not as severe.)
 
I did find the dialogue a lot more colloquial than we'd expect in LOTR, but Hobbit is much more a fun book, so I accepted it; the colloquialisms were often also in the book.

I actually found that I didn't mind so much about additions and changes from the book to the movie, as I think it adds to it, and helps tie in the two movie trilogies.

I guess you could say the same about the script for LOTR. I personally am a huge LOTR fan, and I also really enjoyed The Hobbit. Martin Freeman is amazing as Bilbo.
 
I'm planning to see it in HFR as soon as I can, and I'll weigh in on HFR vs 24 when I do.

Awesome. I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of it.

Your thoughts about how film would have performed better makes me wish we could see a version of it shot on film! Wouldn't it be nice if somehow there were a 3D film version we could see to compare? Oh well. =)
 
It's shocking that on a filmmaking forum, rather than a photography forum, that the majority of the discussion is about a relatively small upgrade to the photography process (the frame rate). The Hobbit is one of the first films to employ an entirely new technology, a new technology which represents the most significant advance in 20 years and yet because it isn't directly related to photography no one has even mentioned it?!

G
 
the most significant advance in 20 years

I haven't seen it yet... Did they finally make a movie in color?

Almost as new as a TV show using a tripod? ;)

What technology are you talking about? 48p is the change that the Hobbit known for.
 
I've only just found out about the new Dolby atmos system, although as far as I know, it was technically first trialled in Brave at the El Capitan. I guess it's possibly because the number of cinemas in which this is even available is really small, especially in comparison to the amount of cinemas showing 48 frames.

48 frames has been talked about since the beginning of production on the movie, and it is by far the most noticeable and most global 'advance'. Dolby Atmos just hasn't been advertised or pushed as much, in fact I only knew it was a thing because I happened across a comment on Vincent Laforet's blog. There's not one single theatre with it in Australia, for example so I can't really talk about it. I thought the mix in the IMAX theatre I was in was great, but it certainly wasn't a Dolby Atmos mix.
 
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AFAIK, Dolby Atmos has only been installed in about 100 or so cinemas currently and most of those are in the US, New Zealand has one but not as far as I know Australia yet. I should imagine it will soon though as apparently 1,000 cinemas are scheduled to have Dolby Atmos installed during 2013.

I realise there's been more hype over the 48fps and why that would dominate a discussion on a photography forum but on a film makers forum I'm surprised that such an important film making development hasn't even been mentioned. I haven't experienced Dolby Atmos yet so I can't say how much more or less noticeable it is than 48fps 3D over 24fps 3D. From the reports and audio post chatter though Dolby Atmos sounds very significantly different to Dolby Digital, which is not surprising when you consider what it is!

G
 
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What I am interested in is how Dobly Atmos will change the sound workflow for you - is it going to be more difficult, or take longer to create up to 64 different speaker feeds?

One thing that is scary for any real low-budget filmmakers: If 5k 48fps with Dolby Atmos sound is the way of the future, it means you won't be able to hide anything. One slight focus slip-up, or slightly off-mic dialogue and it's unacceptable. Your sets, make-up, hair, etc. has to be absolutely perfect..
 
AFAIK, Dolby Atmos has only been installed in about 100 or so cinemas currently and most of those are in the US, New Zealand has one but not as far as I know Australia yet. I should imagine it will soon though as apparently 1,000 cinemas are scheduled to have Dolby Atmos installed during 2013.

I realise there's been more hype over the 48fps and why that would dominate a discussion on a photography forum but on a film makers forum I'm surprised that such an important film making development hasn't even been mentioned. I haven't experienced Dolby Atmos yet so I can't say how much more or less noticeable it is than 48fps 3D over 24fps 3D. From the reports and audio post chatter though Dolby Atmos sounds very significantly different to Dolby Digital, which is not surprising when you consider what it is!

G

We were counting on you to mention it. And we kinda expected you to explain it and and tell why it's important.

Thanks!

Oh, wait a minute...you forgot the explaining it part. Bit tardy, but better late than never....

We await the explanations, then.

=)
 
What I am interested in is how Dobly Atmos will change the sound workflow for you - is it going to be more difficult, or take longer to create up to 64 different speaker feeds?

One thing that is scary for any real low-budget filmmakers: If 5k 48fps with Dolby Atmos sound is the way of the future, it means you won't be able to hide anything. One slight focus slip-up, or slightly off-mic dialogue and it's unacceptable. Your sets, make-up, hair, etc. has to be absolutely perfect..

Well HD at home and audience desensitization to special effects and the like has forced film makers to become more perfect and the audience is less forgiving, so I guess this is just another leap in needing to attempt to perfect our craft
 
Well HD at home and audience desensitization to special effects and the like has forced film makers to become more perfect and the audience is less forgiving, so I guess this is just another leap in needing to attempt to perfect our craft

Even then, in HD and even 2k resolutions, especially on film, slightly soft focus is not horrendously noticeable - in fact, I remember going to see When In Rome and a number of the shots used were slightly soft. I seemed to be one of the only few to notice it. Of course, scaled down for television, it looks sharp.

With 4k, 5k and beyond, especially with 4k+ projection, 48fps etc. focus is going to have to be spot on - the Focus Pulling will have to be 100% perfect, set construction will have to be practically real, the make-up will have to be practically invisible, the sound design will have to be perfect, with each speaker sent the right thing at the right time, the ADR will have to be perfect, the CGI will have to look like real life..

It's interesting to say the least - how do you get a perfect focus puller if you don't have the budget for one?

And it continues down the line - lens makers will need to bump prices and availablility times as they design absolutely perfect lenses that are collimated 100% perfectly.

I personally love softening digital images, and if it goes the way it looks like it will, I'll certainly be employing the Classic Soft filters or the 70s Cooke lenses much more.
 
So maybe this is how the big boys and the big time productions will differentiate themselves from the indies and the do-it-yourselfers. Maybe there will be a sort of film and filmmaking "ghetto" in which the latter will have to operate. Maybe we'll call it "old school," euphemistically, but what it will also mean/refer to is everyone else who cannot afford to roll like that.

So what was The Hobbit's budget? If everything has to be pretty much real and top notch, what does that mean for budgets? What would that mean for the playing field, if they do start making the big blockbusters that way? Maybe because of the expense and difficulties, 4 and 5 and + K at higher frame rates won't be taking off and dominating the world for some time to come?
 
richy said:
So maybe this is how the big boys and the big time productions will differentiate themselves from the indies and the do-it-yourselfers. Maybe there will be a sort of film and filmmaking "ghetto" in which the latter will have to operate. Maybe we'll call it "old school," euphemistically, but what it will also mean/refer to is everyone else who cannot afford to roll like that.
But, how do you find an audience for a 'ghetto' film? Sure, you might find a minority audience, as something like The Room has. But will such an audience be enough to warrant enough of a commercial success? When an audience expects perfection, will a film that isn't perfect still attract an audience? One would be tempted to say that audiences will be attracted to good stories, but that doesn't explain why more indie films don't have larger audiences.

So what was The Hobbit's budget? If everything has to be pretty much real and top notch, what does that mean for budgets?

From reports around the web, it seems that the entire budget for the three films was a bit over $500mil (or half a billion dollars.


What would that mean for the playing field, if they do start making the big blockbusters that way? Maybe because of the expense and difficulties, 4 and 5 and + K at higher frame rates won't be taking off and dominating the world for some time to come?

It will certainly be interesting to see which way the industry goes. The wider industry seems to be weighing in against 48fps, though there is the minority of larger Directors shooting at higher frame rates for 3D. But then, the industry would seem content with shooting/finishing in 2k and yet RED are releasing their new 6k sensor, Sony are releasing an update for the F65 to shoot in 6k and eventually 8k..

4k televisions and especially 4k broadcast television are a fair way off, but that doesn't necessarily mean much for film acquisition.

For some reason, the technology makers are really, really pushing higher spatial resolutions and the like, perhaps at the reluctance of filmmakers - at the moment, we're pretty happy to shoot Alexa, even at 2.5 or 3k as it gives a better looking image than a Red or F65 at 4k, 6k or whatever. And even for 4k projection, Deakins himself was happy with the Skyfall blowup for IMAX.

Somewhere along the line, the focus is shifting from the look of the image to the pixel count, the technology, when really the artistry behind this business should mean that the focus should only be on the look of the image. I'd be interested to hear from any of the audio guys if any similar effect is happening in audio, or perhaps has already happened - where there are those who seem to care more about perhaps track count, or native processing rather than the actual sound of it. I mean, perhaps it's different in audio as you perhaps need a minimum of x amount of tracks or x processing speed, whereas on the image side all taht should really matter is what ends up on the screen, not how many pixels are on the sensor that you used to capture.

Although, I guess there are those who truly think that RED looks better than Alexa or even film, and even Deakins himself seems to prefer the look of Alexa to 35mm - I certainly agree that the Alexa's colour rendition is better, but I'm not sure I'd go as far to say that Alexa looks better than 35mm capture. Certainly it is the closest digital acquisition format to 35mm, at least look-wise, with an easier-than-35 workflow.

I understand shooting RED for 3D, as they're smaller and lighter, but even then - if it means blown out windows and highlights in your movies, was it worth it? Is it better to make a stunning 2D image, or a very good looking 3D image?

I'd be interested to know if the blown highlights are a result of them actually being blown, or a result of the grade. I will see if it's much different in HFR. I'd also be interested to see it in 2D to compare, I'd imagine that the colourist brightened up the image to make up for the inherently darker image you get in 3D (which so many filmmakers don't account for - simply grade so it looks good in 2D meaning everything looks dark in 3D) so I'd be really interested if such shots remain blown out, and if the quality loss is still present in 2D.
 
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Even then, in HD and even 2k resolutions, especially on film, slightly soft focus is not horrendously noticeable - in fact, I remember going to see When In Rome and a number of the shots used were slightly soft. I seemed to be one of the only few to notice it. Of course, scaled down for television, it looks sharp.

With 4k, 5k and beyond, especially with 4k+ projection, 48fps etc. focus is going to have to be spot on - the Focus Pulling will have to be 100% perfect, set construction will have to be practically real, the make-up will have to be practically invisible, the sound design will have to be perfect, with each speaker sent the right thing at the right time, the ADR will have to be perfect, the CGI will have to look like real life..

It's interesting to say the least - how do you get a perfect focus puller if you don't have the budget for one?

And it continues down the line - lens makers will need to bump prices and availablility times as they design absolutely perfect lenses that are collimated 100% perfectly.

I personally love softening digital images, and if it goes the way it looks like it will, I'll certainly be employing the Classic Soft filters or the 70s Cooke lenses much more.

So soon (ie 10+ years) if you can't produce a film for Atmos and your frame rate isn't higher than the current norm then it speaks that you have a lower budget
 
What I am interested in is how Dobly Atmos will change the sound workflow for you - is it going to be more difficult, or take longer to create up to 64 different speaker feeds?

One thing that is scary for any real low-budget filmmakers: If 5k 48fps with Dolby Atmos sound is the way of the future, it means you won't be able to hide anything. One slight focus slip-up, or slightly off-mic dialogue and it's unacceptable. Your sets, make-up, hair, etc. has to be absolutely perfect..

Atmos does not represent an increase in actual audio fidelity. "Slightly off-mic dialogue" is already and has been for some years unacceptable in a commercial theatrical release, there is already nowhere to hide and Atmos will not change that. I realise this last sentence does not correspond with the experience of the lo/no budget filmmakers here but I have to say, from the perspective of an industry professional, this is because lo/no budget filmmakers have found somewhere to hide, in fact two places to hide: 1. Low quality audio reproduction systems/environments which are incapable of revealing many of the errors which will become apparent on high quality home and theatrical environments/audio systems and 2. Lack of interest, appreciation and/or knowledge of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable film sound.

High quality surround sound has been the industry standard for theatrical film release for over 30 years, the only change has been to increase the channels from 4.0 to 5.1 and switch to digital about 20 years ago. Not only is there no commercial alternative to at least a 5.1 mix for theatrical releases but it's even becoming a standard expectation for consumer releases on DVD, BluRay and HDTV. I'm not sure if Atmos makes any great different to the situation as far as the lo/no budget filmmaker is concerned. Most work in a consumer stereo format which is already well behind the trend of home cinema 5.1 and not even compatible with theatrical systems. There is talk of a home consumer version of Dolby Atmos but at this stage it's not clear if this would present any tangible listening benefits or if it will just be a marketing exercise.

So what is Dolby Atmos? Dolby has always been secretive about how their technology works, so at the moment us creators (audio post pros) only have a rough idea of what is going on "under the hood". A little explanation of theatrical 5.1 systems is required to understand the difference and what Atmos achieves. Although there are 6 audio channels in a 5.1 system, in a cinema there are usually many more speakers than this depending on the size and acoustics of the cinema. For example, if we imagine the front left channel and the rear left channel, we can put a speaker in the middle of the left wall (between the front left and rear left speakers) and feed it 50% of the front left channel and 50% of the rear left channel. The advantage of this is that it improves the coverage, more people will experience a reasonably accurate mix than just those sitting in the perfect listening position in the exact centre of the auditorium (equidistant from all the speakers). In a large cinema there may be 20+ speakers all around the auditorium trying to diffuse the perfect listening position and being fed various percentages of the original 6 audio channels. All this is setup by the Dolby techs on installation and controlled by Dolby processors. As time has marched on, more channels have been added to overcome the inherent problem of relying on phantom positioning (panning to a position anywhere between the 5 main channels). If you pan a sound (music, FX, dialogue) to the centre position in a stereo system that is a phantom centre position created by psychoacoustics because no speaker exists in the centre. Not only is this phantom centre position very unreliable in a larger space (depending on where you're sitting the sound won't be perceived as coming from the centre) but the sound will be muddied (blurred) by the fact that at least two different speakers have to output the exact same sound to create the illusion of a centre position. It is for this reason that all cinemas have a dedicated centre speaker and dedicated centre audio channel which effectively eliminates all these issues. However, what happens when you want to pan a sound halfway between the centre speaker and say the front left speaker, once again we are back to a phantom position and it's associated issues. That's why 7.1 was invented, which until now has been the industry standard for large theatrical releases, to put in speakers between the centre and front left and centre and front right speakers. However, this doesn't solve the problem of all the phantom positions still required between any of the front and rear speakers and is one of the reasons why you really need to know what you're doing to create a 5.1 mix which works as intended. The other limitation of 5.1 (or 7.1) systems is that they only deal with a single horizontal plane. Although in theory 5.1 and 7.1 systems provide a 360deg coverage (with the use of phantom positioning) in the real world we don't hear in only 360deg, we are also able to perceive height information (though not as accurately).

Atmos attempts to solve all of these problems and is far more than just adding an extra channel or two to reduce the need for phantom positioning. In fact the whole concept of audio channels needs to be (and is) quite different with Atmos, instead of audio channels, audio post pros now have to think in terms of sound objects and of each individual sound FX having it's own "path". Up to 128 sound objects are essentially rendered on playback by the Dolby Atmos processor using up to 64 channels of audio. However, exactly the number of "sound objects" (speaker output channels) rendered by the Atmos decoder is not a fixed quantity as it is with existing surround systems. The Atmos decoder will use every speaker in the cinema as an individual discrete point source and revert to phantom positioning only when there is no speaker in the required position. With far more speakers and far smaller distances between them, phantom positioning issues should be massively reduced, if not virtually eliminated. And because of this dynamic output rendering tailored for each individual cinema, it should work better and more consistently over a wider range of cinema sizes.

Exactly how any of this works is probably not known outside of Dolby and the information I've provided is just what I've picked up from the grapevine, I haven't used or even heard a Dolby Atmos system yet! Reports at this stage indicate that it delivers what it promises, a truly realistic sound experience, with far clearer, more precise and convincing positioning. Dolby are saying that at least a 9.1 Dolby Atmos system is required to create Atmos mixes but the few audio post facilities currently capable of producing Atmos mixes have considerably larger than 9.1 systems.

A Dolby Atmos theatre:
atmos-650-1.jpg


Here is a link to a short documentary on the sound of the Hobbit, which shows a bit about Atmos (at 7:15). Soundworks Hobbit Documentary

I'd be interested to hear from any of the audio guys if any similar effect is happening in audio, or perhaps has already happened - where there are those who seem to care more about perhaps track count, or native processing rather than the actual sound of it.

Not really. Certainly track counts have increased, 1,000+ tracks is now entirely common for big theatrical releases but this has been used to improve workflow efficiency, creativity and to allow for ever higher audience expectations and industry requirements. At the lower end of the industry cheap technology is leading to many calling themselves "Sound Designers" who have little experience or knowledge of a role which requires a great deal of both and leading film/program makers to believe they can get more for less. This is true only extremely rarely and almost without exception film/program makers at the lower end of the market don't have the knowledge or experience to be able to tell the difference between a rare bargain and someone who is not only trying to fool filmmakers but fool themselves as well!

The is a move in the music industry towards higher sample rates and higher bit depths for the end product, the so called HD audio of 24/96 or even 24/192. These are essentially marketing gimmicks by record labels/manufacturers and offer nothing other than the opportunity of taking advantage of consumer ignorance of how digital audio works to sell a more expensive product which has no benefits.

Here is another useful short documentary.

G
 
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Okay, I watched it in Paris and had the choices between two theaters

A 3D HFR IMAX or A 3D HFR ATMOS.

Because Sound is Half the Experience and IMAX is not, I went with the second which is by the way the only room in Paris and probably in France boasting such technology.

Well, I didn't hear any difference. Granted, it's been months that I haven't set foot in a theater before The Hobbit and may be under-evalutating the thing. But I didn't feel that the sound was coming from different places.

Also, I was sitting off axis, very to the right (the center seats were more expensive and it wasn't mentionned online that those seats are THE center seats).

I was so disappointed I wanted to go back again. But since I was disappointed with the 3D too. And I never got accustomed to the 48 fps... it didn't make it less filmic and a few scenes made a really good use of it but they were scarce..
 
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Well, I didn't hear any difference. Granted, it's been months that I haven't set foot in a theater before The Hobbit and may be under-evalutating the thing. But I didn't feel that the sound was coming from different places.... Also, I was sitting off axis, very to the right (the center seats were more expensive and it wasn't mentionned online that those seats are THE center seats)

Sitting to the far right or anywhere near a boundary wall is going to reduce the effectiveness of the system, not sure to what extent but I wouldn't expect it to be any worse than a traditional 5.1 or 7.1 system.

There are three other factors to consider:
1. Being so new and different, it's going to take quite a bit of time for mixers (and directors) to figure out how to employ Atmos most effectively and to learn which existing tricks work well, which don't and what new tricks it offers. I'd certainly be surprised if the sound of these early Atmos films is as good as the high budget Atmos films in a few years time.
2. The Atmos system is not designed to make it feel that sound is coming from all different places, depending on the film and the scene that could be very off-putting, it's designed to make the creation of artificial sonic environments more credible. More like how the atmosphere would sound if it were a real atmosphere, hence the name.
3. Most of what is going on in the sound mix is not designed for the audience to be consciously aware of. As a filmmaker you want the audience to be involved in the scene, not thinking about how great (or how lousy) the sound system or mix is.

For these reasons I don't expect hugely effusive reviews from the majority of film goers. How much better it is than 5.1 or 7.1 may take sometime for many film goers to fully appreciate and of course some may never notice or never notice consciously! Not having heard it yet I can't say how much better it is either at this stage.

G
 
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