format The End of Formatting work

[Nate North]

- note, this page (indietalk) removes indentations on post for some reason, so the format below looks wrong, but is not incorrect in the source.

So yesterday I posted twice in different threads about how you can use Chat GPT 4 to effectively format your screenplays from now on. I thought I should probably just make a main post about that, since it's going to save a lot of time for a lot of people, and effectively get rid of the many posts where people have to spend time giving others advice about things like spelling and punctuation.

So here's an example I made in 2 minutes.

I gave it this simple story segment, nothing good, just an example for this test.

a couple sits in a Manhattan townhouse, and has an argument about who will stay up all night reformatting a novel page into a script page. Conflict develops and tempers rise, as each comes up with reasons why the other should have to be the one to do this annoying job. They are interrupted by the sound of gigantic thudding footsteps outside the building, and go to look out the window. They see a 135 foot tall robot walking through town, stepping on cars full of people in traffic, and wearing a great cape made out of many parachutes. A voice from the street below is heard screaming, "Jim, Jim, wake up, somebody call an ambulance" The robot lowers it's eye to the apartment window and trembling in fear, the man holds out the page of text that needs to be edited. A slow rumble grows into a roar as the eye begins to glow, and then we see a drone shot of the robot shooting a huge beam of energy out of it's eye, cutting the apartment building in half. It collapses into dust, as crowds on the street below run screaming from the falling rubble, and in the final shot, a perfectly formatted script page floats down like a falling leaf and settles into the rubble.

Then I told it to format this as a screenplay with standard formatting, and it returned this -


INT. MANHATTAN TOWNHOUSE - NIGHT

The room is dimly lit. An elegant dining table takes up most of the space, covered in papers and books. On one side sits JANE, mid-30s, her hair up, glasses on, looking intensely at a manuscript. Across from her is JAMES, late 30s, wearing a faded t-shirt, his attention on a laptop.

JANE
I’m not doing it, James. I’ve been up for 48 hours
straight working on the novel.

JAMES
Well, I’ve got my hands full with the edits from
the publisher! Why do I have to be the one to
reformat?

Jane stands up, pointing at her manuscript.

JANE
Do you see this? This is blood, sweat, and tears.
Literal tears! You can’t expect me to turn this into
a script format on no sleep.

James closes his laptop with a THUD.

JAMES
I’ve been working non-stop too, Jane. We’re in this
together. It’s as much your job as it is mine.

A sudden, LOUD THUD interrupts their spat. The room shakes.

JANE
What the hell was that?

Another THUD. The wine glasses on the table tremble.

JAMES
I...I don’t know.

Rushing to the window, they peel back the curtains to reveal a GIGANTIC ROBOT. It towers above the buildings, its mechanical feet crushing cars beneath.

JANE
Oh my god...

The robot wears a massive CAPE made from dozens of connected parachutes. With each step, it flutters in the wind.

From below, a distant SHOUT rises.

MAN (O.S.)
Jim, Jim, wake up! Someone call an ambulance!

The robot's massive EYE focuses on their window. James, in a moment of panic, holds up the manuscript page towards the robot.

The robot's eye begins to GLOW BRIGHTER. The RUMBLE grows louder, more menacing.

JAMES
Jane... I think it wants the script.

JANE
I think it wants US!

An aerial DRONE SHOT captures the immense robot. It releases a POWERFUL BEAM from its eye, slicing the townhouse in half. Bricks, wood, and furniture fly everywhere as the building COLLAPSES.

People below SCREAM, fleeing from the falling debris.

The dust settles. All that remains is devastation and the faint sound of sirens in the distance. A single, perfectly formatted SCRIPT PAGE floats gracefully to the ground, landing atop the rubble.

FADE OUT.

THE END


In this instance, I let the bot fill in some detail, and basically write the scene for me, but that was simply to save time, since this was just for an example. You can easily tell it not to embellish your writing, and it will simply do your formatting for you.

Edit - for some reason, when I saved this, it removed all the spacing, basically ruining the example of the formatting. It appears correctly until I post it, and then suddenly deletes all the indentations on post. Anyway, I guess just take my word for it that GPT does produce the format with correct indentations. The whole post feels wasted now that half the formatting just vanished.

here's a screenshot of the original so you can see what I mean.

 

[mlesemann]

I HATE this entire concept.
But writing is my thing so that's hardly surprising.
More ways to dumb-down movies. Bah.

I'll keep on doing my thing my way until I die 'cause I think it's the best way.
But everyone else if free to let their computers write for them if that's what they want.

 

[Nate North]

Well, keep in mind that I'm not suggesting anyone have the bot write their screenplay for them, just format, spellcheck, punctuation, that kind of thing. I guess I don't see the difference between this and just a more user friendly version of something like Final Draft.

I doubt this is something that veteran scriptwriters would need or want, but you have to admit, there are a lot of new screenwriters who struggle with format specifically, and this would be useful to them.

Of course, after word processors came out, a lot of people still wanted to use typewriters for another decade or two, so each to his own. I'm always looking to speed up parts of the process that don't actually utilize any intelligence, such as indenting paragraphs, so that's what this is about, rather than having the robot write the actual content for you. Just a tool to save time, so I don't see how that would affect the intelligence of the movie itself.

 

[mlesemann]

A lot of formatting revolves around understanding what these things are used for.

Why are there slug lines and what is that information used for? Why do locations matter? Why do we capitalize a character's name the first time they appear? Why does it matter that we distinguish between actions and dialogue? Why do we indicate INT or EXT?

Certainly Final Draft etc have made it far easier than when people did all of this on typewriters. But there's information that's conveyed by the various aspects of screenplay formatting. And by simply letting a computer do it, that means the writer doesn't care to know what it actually means, and how to utilize that information if they plan to direct (which lots of screenwriters do).

But YRMV.

 

[CelticRambler]

there are a lot of new screenwriters who struggle with format specifically, and this would be useful to them.

The selection of screenplays posted here over the last few years gives more of an impression that these "new screenwriters" are struggling with writing generally, rather than screenplays specifically.

I'm not sure that getting an "intelligent" computer to correctly format a slab of vaguely coherent thoughts is really going to be much of an improvement. If anything, it'll only saturate the screenplay space with poorer quality material, in the same way as the graphic design space is now riddled with atrocious graphic design because "anyone can do it" with cheap desktop publishing software.

Yes, it is helpful to have tools available to spot and fix occasional errors, but that should the be last point in the process, not a short cut.

 

[directorik]

I hate this. But there is no holding back progress.

Struggling with format can be an important aspect of learning to write
a screenplay. Knowing why the format is in place makes the difference
between a writer and a screenplay writer.

Excellent points from mlesemann and CelticRambler. We have seen that
making some things easier doesn't make people better at the job. It just
allows more people to appear proficent.

 

[CelticRambler]

If anything, it'll only saturate the screenplay space with poorer quality material

Forgive me for quoting my own post, but I've just come across an article in The Guardian newspaper (online version) from which I offer this heavily edited excerpt:

Rory Cellan-Jones, former BBC technology correspondent, wrote a memoir untangling the truth about his family history.
“Then Amazon sent me an email saying: ‘You might like this.’
“I thought: ‘This is strange – who’s writing a biography of me?’”
Glancing at a few passages revealed that Cellan-Jones had fallen victim to someone attempting to piggyback on his memoir by releasing a title with text apparently generated by artificial intelligence – one of an influx of AI titles since the emergence of ChatGPT enabled people to generate pages of text rather than bothering to write it.
"Their [Amazon's] algorithm had decided this was a bloody book I would want rather than recommending my book that I’ve slaved long and hard over … "
It has been easy for bookspammers to release dozens of titles in a day using Amazon’s Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP) system, which enables authors to self-publish ebooks and printed books.

Someone styled as “Steven Walryn” published more than 30 books, mostly nonsensical and repetitive guides on how to use camera brands, as well as a couple of fantasy romances, with 15 published on the same day in May. They were removed by Amazon last week.

Amazon could not say how many books it prevents from being published or how many were taken down.

Computer-assisted writing, computer-assisted publication, computer-assisted recommendations. The only "human" aspect of the story is that Amazon are making too much money from this to be bothered to do anything useful about it.

If the same thing happens with screenplays, it'll only drown festivals and other indie-accessible screenplay submission routes with giga-pages of nonsense, and make things even harder for enthusiastic amateurs.

 

[Nate North]

 

[CelticRambler]

Funny you should post that as a counter-point: over this side of th'Atlantic, there are now hundreds of municipalities in Europe that have decided enough is enough, and cars are just outright banned from town and city centres. And life is so much better there without them.

 

[Nate North]

I think automating things is going to be a necessity for people going forward in an economy that pays incredibly little for large tasks. It's just a practical thing.

 

[CelticRambler]

I think automating things is going to be a necessity for people going forward in an economy that pays incredibly little for large tasks. It's just a practical thing.

It seems to me that you're confounding two different concepts in that statement. First, that automation is a/the solution to practical problems (yes it is, sometimes, and sometimes it isn't); and secondly that all creativity is ultimately transactional, and financially transactional at that.

The second of these is a recurring theme throughout your posts, and I do wonder if you've been sucked so far down into that way of thinking that you can't see that there are other economies and other reward systems that mean ...

TL;DR : money's not everything.

Over the years, I've referred a few times to a music and dance festival in which I have a management role (July 11-14, 2024 for anyone who's interested in next year's event). More specifically, I'm in charge of the instrument storage on site, a place for members of the visiting public to leave their instruments while they eat/sleep/dance/whatever. When I took up the role 10 years ago, it was decided that we would make a nominal charge of 5€ ($5) per instrument for the whole weekend, mainly to stop people abusing the service. I was given one room in the château and a dozen picnic tables for storage.

Fast forward ten years, and in 2024 I will have (very literally) half the château at my disposal. The conferences have been re-located to a marquee; the year-long exhibition has long sine been packed off to a different site; the attic has been cleared out. All because every year, I've done my damnedest to make that glorified left luggage service something for my team to be proud of, and one bog-standard "practical thing" that gets cited as something other festivals should aspire to; and every year, demand for the service exceeds the space that's been allotted to me.

We work 9am to 5am (in shifts), and no-one gets paid (food and drink, yes, but that's it) and I have the same people signing on year after year. Instead of being a discouragement, that 5€ fee is seen by our public as great value - really great value - and even though it makes for a heck of a lot of work for us, we encourage our "customers" to drop off and collect their instruments as often as they want. And here's the thing: inside that violin case there could be a million-dollar Stradivarius or a ten-dollar Temu special; we don't care about the monetary value (in fact no-one is allowed open a case without my say-so) because we know the emotional value probably outweighs ten times whatever the owner paid.

How does this relate to AI script-formatting? Well, because we now have a reputation for being obsessively careful about every instrument under our supervision (you'll need the help of a pantheon of deities to get one back if you've lost your reclamation slip) the artists who are scheduled to perform on stage come early, leave late, trust us to look after their gear in the meantime, and end up rubbing shoulders with the other performers present on the site. That leads to unexpected encounters and new creations - such as the group whose video I posted in that other thread.

Furthermore, for a long time we've had automation of a sort in musical notation/music writing but (a) if you don't know your crotchets from your quavers, you can't give the transcribing software enough information to make an accurate score; (b) no computer-generated midi or pdf file can match the emotion (or imperfection) of the original composition; and (c) even if you're an immensely skillful, highly accomplished performer in one musical field (like my violinist muse), it doesn't mean you can slip easily into another.

Inspired by the madness of one very tired, very giddy volunteer towards the end of this year's festival, I'll be adding a new feature to our waiting area next year: a pile of large, empty cardboard boxes. AI that into new music!

 

[Nate North]

It seems to me that you're confounding two different concepts in that statement. First, that automation is a/the solution to practical problems (yes it is, sometimes, and sometimes it isn't); and secondly that all creativity is ultimately transactional, and financially transactional at that.

The second of these is a recurring theme throughout your posts, and I do wonder if you've been sucked so far down into that way of thinking that you can't see that there are other economies and other reward systems that mean ...

TL;DR : money's not everything.

Over the years, I've referred a few times to a music and dance festival in which I have a management role (July 11-14, 2024 for anyone who's interested in next year's event). More specifically, I'm in charge of the instrument storage on site, a place for members of the visiting public to leave their instruments while they eat/sleep/dance/whatever. When I took up the role 10 years ago, it was decided that we would make a nominal charge of 5€ ($5) per instrument for the whole weekend, mainly to stop people abusing the service. I was given one room in the château and a dozen picnic tables for storage.

Fast forward ten years, and in 2024 I will have (very literally) half the château at my disposal. The conferences have been re-located to a marquee; the year-long exhibition has long sine been packed off to a different site; the attic has been cleared out. All because every year, I've done my damnedest to make that glorified left luggage service something for my team to be proud of, and one bog-standard "practical thing" that gets cited as something other festivals should aspire to; and every year, demand for the service exceeds the space that's been allotted to me.

We work 9am to 5am (in shifts), and no-one gets paid (food and drink, yes, but that's it) and I have the same people signing on year after year. Instead of being a discouragement, that 5€ fee is seen by our public as great value - really great value - and even though it makes for a heck of a lot of work for us, we encourage our "customers" to drop off and collect their instruments as often as they want. And here's the thing: inside that violin case there could be a million-dollar Stradivarius or a ten-dollar Temu special; we don't care about the monetary value (in fact no-one is allowed open a case without my say-so) because we know the emotional value probably outweighs ten times whatever the owner paid.

How does this relate to AI script-formatting? Well, because we now have a reputation for being obsessively careful about every instrument under our supervision (you'll need the help of a pantheon of deities to get one back if you've lost your reclamation slip) the artists who are scheduled to perform on stage come early, leave late, trust us to look after their gear in the meantime, and end up rubbing shoulders with the other performers present on the site. That leads to unexpected encounters and new creations - such as the group whose video I posted in that other thread.

Furthermore, for a long time we've had automation of a sort in musical notation/music writing but (a) if you don't know your crotchets from your quavers, you can't give the transcribing software enough information to make an accurate score; (b) no computer-generated midi or pdf file can match the emotion (or imperfection) of the original composition; and (c) even if you're an immensely skillful, highly accomplished performer in one musical field (like my violinist muse), it doesn't mean you can slip easily into another.

Inspired by the madness of one very tired, very giddy volunteer towards the end of this year's festival, I'll be adding a new feature to our waiting area next year: a pile of large, empty cardboard boxes. AI that into new music!

Well, I'm actually interested in starting up a whole conversation that goes in depth about AI, and some of the stuff you're talking about here. How it all fits together (and doesn't) in the grand scheme. I'll make a task specific thread about it very soon. Basically, I'm about to launch the public face of the Save Point company soon, already started the process, and once that happens, I will have no choice but to be on the frontlines of what, for some people, is becoming a heated debate.

This whole issue is actually vastly more complicated, and can be seen from a lot more angles, than I think most people looking from the outside realize. Even though I've been in AI research and development for 23 years now, (with some years off in the middle), I'd say that the last 2 years have been almost starting from scratch every 3 months. It's just moving way faster than ever before.

I'll need a practice run before I rollout advertising, because my campaign is going to try and pull in around 5 million people next year. Of that 5, 99% won't be interested, but of the remainder, 1% is going to want to attack me on my pro AI stance, so I'll need to get my points in order, and where better than here, a semi sane community where no one has ever burned anyone else's house down over a meme.

TLDR, I'll be glad to discuss all of your points, and Unknowns points, and everyone else, very soon. Just give me a sec. Kind of overwhelmed with work right now. As in, building the automation systems and AI's to do the work I need done is taking more than 70 hours a week, and I'm steadily falling behind my own pacing goals. I couldn't put down the belt sander and sand each piece by hand if I wanted to. If it makes you feel any better, I really do want to, and look back at my idealistic artist days with a warm sepia toned memory. If I just get this guitar lick right, I'll make it. I'm just one Ibanez J craft away from a record deal, and the like. 20 years of hard time in capitalism have taught me that while I'll never stop being an artist at heart, I need a factory and a business alongside that artistry to have a life that doesn't spiral into a disaster. You have no idea how much I have to say on this whole topic. Lol. Like I said, separate thread.

I'll give you one quick metric just to show the scope of the problem I'm dealing with. At current rates, including all subcalculations, adblockers, YT revenue share, taxes, and on and on, I need to roll out Save Point to an audience of more than 100 million views per year. TO MAKE A LOWER MIDDLE CLASS INCOME FOR ONE PERSON. A guy who lives in my town used to play banjo for groups of 30. He owns a home, raised 2 kids, got married, and retired in peace. I'll be on this battlefield fighting 10000x as hard as he did, for the rest of my life, just to get what he had. That's what this looks like WITH the automation. The doomed generation........ I think people approaching a full time art career 80s style in the year 2025 are going to end up living under a bridge. Honestly, this whole thing is way more of a trainwreck than I'm even capable of describing here. I think the dystopian future we were warned about is a near certainty at this point, and in many ways is already a full scale reality.

 

[LindaRiv12pt]

Automation can be useful to build the very first draft but you cannot rely on it if you know more about the writing process.
You might end up writing a script full of plot holes, boring, not coherent, with the wrong rhythm and yet perfectly formatted...

 

[James Rogers]

it's going to save a lot of time for a lot of people, and effectively get rid of the many posts where people have to spend time giving others advice about things like spelling and punctuation.

...but it was you who said there aren't enough people posting on this board. Now you want to decrease the number.

AI is here. It will expand into all areas of EVERYTHING. People will love it. They will have it create things for them, and then they will feel proud for having told the AI to make it. They will win awards for skillfully instructing AI to paint painting or sculpt sculptures or write books and screenplays. It's going to be a wonderful future for all of us. Mediocrity will no longer exist. Everyone will be a winner. Everyone will be the best.