Tascam DR-05 or DR-07 mkII, That is the question.

zim9000

zim9000

So I'm looking at getting possible either one of these as a recorder for my shotgun mic. Currently all I have to record is onto my T3i so either one will be way better for sure. I'm just trying to decide if the extras on the DR-07 mkII are worth the extra $50?

DR-07 mkII: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/760375-REG/Tascam_DR_07MKII_DR_07mkII_Portable_Digital_Audio.html

DR-05: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/757065-REG/Tascam_DR_05_DR_05_Portable_Handheld_Digital.html

I will be using this for youtube videos that I make by either using the mics built into the recorder or through my shotgun mic. $150 is the max I can spend. I guess if anyone owns either of these or could give feedback on them would be great. Thanks.

I also found a video comparison between them from bhphoto:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2uBIXPWSq8
 
Last edited:
Sort by date Sort by votes
Ok let me put it this way. How much of a difference is there between the AB pattern mic and the XY pattern? So lets say I use the mic built into the recorder and place it 3 foot to 10 foot away to capture my voice. Will the XY do a better job at this? How far away are devices like these capable of recording at normal voice levels?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Hey Zim, is hard to care about your question. Its like your asking a mechanic to give you an estimate on how much more horse power you can get out of your engine by tweaking the gas\O2 mixture 10% richer.. the problem is, your engine is a 1982 3cyl metro motor in bad need of a ring job.. :)

Stereophonic XY patterning questions are just silly for this setup.

Both will pick up, and they booth will sound like poo to some ears. Stereo is seldom a good choice for any film making endeavor.. So in short, spend your money and take your chance..
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Your initial question was about getting "a recorder for my shotgun mic"; and we don't even know which shotgun. Just how much difference do you think there will be between the components of the -05 and the -07? None. And using either to capture dialog as is without an external mic on a boom is, to be honest, bordering on stupid. If you're using a DSLR camera you may as well save a few dollars and plug the mic into the camera as the improvement in sound quality by using either of the mentioned units is negligable. These units are aimed at musicians so they can record rehearsals and capture quick ideas, not as serious production tools.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Alcove Audio said:
...bordering on stupid...
Click to expand...

Gently please. Civility will win the day. Please let's not get angry they don't know the questions to ask... that's why we're here, it's certainly why I first started coming to this particular forum.

If you please, just guide the poster to the question or information about why the information they've produced a question about is misguided; most probably due to some other post on the internet talking about the specifics of some other setup... or info from a pro about a specific application from somewhere else being repeated... without the breadth of experience needed to contextualize that specific application in a larger audio gear context.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I'm kinda interested in this approach as well since it's within my budgetary realm (not to mention I'm rapidly cultivating an equalizing appreciation for the widely ignored audio aspect of film making).

Are you guys saying that an external recorder, either the $100 T-05 or $150 T-07, without mic, placed within three feet of an audio source will render negligible better product than a DSLR/average camcorder would at say six to ten feet away using a shotgun mic wired to the said video device?

Give or take sensible variables:
DSLR/Camcorder + shotgun mic @ 6-10ft = T-05/07 or similar product, sans mic, @ 3 ft?


I was thinking the portable recorder might provide a smidgen more beneficial situational variability than a static shotgun wired to a video device.
However, 9/10 of the time we do see some schmuck with a boom pole & mic, so maybe that's just the route to go. Plugged into a video or external audio device.

i guess I'm just surprised the recording quality in most video recording devices rates "as high as" one of the above mentioned external audio recording devices.
In other words, you really gotta spend more than $150 for an external audio device to make it even worth the while.
Just wasting time, effort and money for naught.
Otherwise, just plug into your DSLR/camcorder (with the sh!tty little 1/8 pin. LOL!).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Knightly - it may be a little harsh but it definitely gets attention phrasing things strongly.

The discussion is plugging a shotgun mic into a DR-05 or DR-07. The results will not be noticeably better than using the DSLR. The only advantage is that you avoid the AGC of a DSLR if the AGC has not been disabled.

Using either unit solo 3 to 10 feet away is three to ten times worse than plugging directly into a DSLR.

I'm a proponent of doing things on a small budget. My own audio post studio is a study of how to do things on a shoestring. For most part my tools are definitely less a lot expensive than what is used the bulk of my peers. However, I do okay because I use my talents and knowledge to use that equipment to best advantage. But I put in A LOT of research and carefully chose the pieces of gear that I can afford. There comes a point, however, of diminishing returns. You must have the proper tools for the job and the skill sets. So sometimes you just have to save more money to get the right piece of gear. And, no matter what, you have to extend your knowledge set and expend the time and effort to figure out how to get the most out of what you have.

The source of my frustration is that everyone has become DSLR crazy wanting "that film look" but not even considering now you get "that film sound." No one will care how pretty your pictures are if your sound sucks; poor sound kills more otherwise festival worthy projects than any other technical reason.

From my point of view using anything less than a DR-100 or H4n - neither of which I personally would ever use - is like pounding nails with a rock when you're building a house; it may work but it does a terrible job and will create a lot of other problems.

As much as I try to help folks out around here and on other forums, more and more, recently, newbs aren't even bothering to do any basic research on their own, like using the search function. We have quite a few threads here on IndieTalk about using inexpensive gear.

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?p=186398

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=30908

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=30898

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=30610


There are a lot more.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Alcove Audio said:
As much as I try to help folks out around here and on other forums, more and more, recently, newbs aren't even bothering to do any basic research on their own, like using the search function. We have quite a few threads here on IndieTalk about using inexpensive gear.

There are a lot more.
Click to expand...
In your defense, considering it's every bit as valid to record quality audio as video, it would be "appreciated" by us nubes if some IndieTalk information technology personnel could add on a "Audio Gear" to the "Tools of the Trade" section.
http://www.indietalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=240
It's conspicuously absent, if not overtly swept into the "Equipment & Gear" catch-all bin.

If we have "Camera & Lenses" we certainly need "Recorders & Mics".
A little organizational parity would be great.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Alcove Audio said:
The source of my frustration is that everyone has become DSLR crazy wanting "that film look" but not even considering now you get "that film sound." No one will care how pretty your pictures are if your sound sucks; poor sound kills more otherwise festival worthy projects than any other technical reason.
Click to expand...

That's the bit I think needed to be stated strongly!
- Good Audio + Bad Video = watchable
- Bad Audio + Good Video = unwatchable!

I'm a big fan of strong statements, but careful about the wording so we know the frustration is broader than a single individual - otherwise, your quest for better indie sound across the board will fail as folks stop listening due to defensiveness.

In your (and your pupils' defense)... audio is much harder to teach than video, due to the fact that there's no easy way to demonstrate the issues. Although, as in video education, examples may go farther in making the point rather than just words. Short cutting the questions that frustrate you. Same scene, mic'd differently and pix of the meters and whatnot showing the levels you're looking for. Education is a difficult thing that takes more effort than just telling someone something... we're film folks; Show (or the auditory equivalent thereof), don't tell!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Wow alcove, didn't mean for you to blow a blood vessel, haha. To answer a few things, I never said anything about putting the actual recorder on a boom pole, I did state I may use the units on-board mics as an option for what I will be doing, I also stated this is for YouTube, I'm interested in the recorder mics because I like to keep my options open and may find a use for them. As much as you state how crappy the units are that does not change the fact I only have ~$150 to work with. I own a T3i so I do get hiss in my recordings and am also aware that it records at 16-bit and 48kHz. I can only imagine a device capable of recording at 24-bit and 96kHz will produce a much richer and cleaner recording than the camera. I have also done my research based on the amount I am able to spend which is why I have concluded on these two particular units.

There is multiple reasons to buy a device such as these from using it as a portable recorder attached to a lav mic and keeping it in your back pocket. Attaching it at the base of a boom pole and connecting it to a shotgun mic for mobile and wire free audio recording. Using it directly as a mic for computer recording. Capture ambient sounds in the woods, home, car, airport, theater, and so on for background noise in videos. Experimentation with recording music to put in your videos. Grabbing sound effects from all sorts of locations to build a library for later use. I'm sure I could think of more if I had to.

The main difference in these units is that one has a fixed AB pattern and the other is adjustable from AB to XY. I'm interested in anyone's experience on the difference from the two styles. I am aware the AB will capture more atmospheric noise but how does the XY compare to that? The 07 also has two extra digital features: reverb effect and overdub mode. But just wanted to see if anyone thought these differences were worth the extra $50 or if anyone owns these units and could fill me in on how they like them. If not then so be it.

I come and post here because this forum I thought was about indie filmmakers, from no budget to low budget. I consider myself no budget. I am not out to make a feature film as of this time, but to learn with what I have and how I can make the best of it. Not everyone can afford what some of you or most of you already own. Stepping on peoples toes and saying that's not good enough is not the response I would expect from a professional and its responses like those that keep newcomers from even bothering to post because they're afraid they will be ridiculed.

A separate audio section would be nice.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Iv seen people STICK a zoom like device on the end of a boom pole. Arguably, that will work BETTER then just setting it up a few yards away. I say why not. Also, Iv heard of folks drooping one of those cheap $59 lav mic\pocket recorder combos as a way to get decent remote sound.

XY vs AB is pretty academic at this level. The reasons why you use one or the other patterns doesn't change. XY is supposed to be better for recording a single source IN A Stereo Space, such as a voice or guitar. AB is more stereo phonic sounding.. at least thats how I remember it. ...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
zim9000 said:
Stepping on peoples toes and saying that's not good enough is not the response I would expect from a professional ...
Click to expand...

I go back to what I posted previously; you hit a point of diminishing returns. If you want professional results you have to make a serious investment. You'll spend $800 on a camera but $400 on audio is too much money; it's a position that makes no sense to me - Sound is half of the experience. Although you may feel that $350 for a recorder is exorbitantly expensive a professional doesn't even blink at ten or twenty times the price. Until three years ago units like the DR-100 and H4n didn't even exist; prior to that you were lucky if you could find a used entry level portable DAT for $600 when the FR2-LE and the PMD-660 appeared on the market.

So, to reiterate; units like the H4n, DR-100 and their little brothers and cousins are not meant for film/video production sound work; they are aimed at musicians for use as sketch pads. You are not going to get professional results, you are going to have problems with the sound induced by the unit itself that will have to be corrected; and it is going to cost you more in the future if you ever decide to upgrade.

If you ask me a question I'm going to tell you what I think, not tell you that you're right to make you feel good. I think that, for a filmmaker, the DR-07 or DR-05 is a bad investment if you are searching for professional results. I personally would not buy an H4n or DR-100 either, but they are somewhat acceptable compromises for micro-budget types; but require a few compromises and adjustments if you are going to use them. If you are trying to DIY all by yourself I think that you are making a mistake as well; you should have some audio assistance. Get the mic off of the camera, put it on the end of a boom-pole and have someone aim it; otherwise you are going to have lots of problems with your audio, problems that not even money can fix.

99% of people will never hear the difference between XY and AB; each has its plusses and minuses, and will never be noticed on really inexpensive gear. The overdub function and reverb are something you won't be using unless you are going to mix the audio for your film in the unit. You are not going to get "a much richer and cleaner recording " simply because you are using a higher bit/sample rate; richness and detail are the result of professional equipment, knowledge and experience. So, if you want to get a DR-07 or DR-05 go right ahead, but it is my considered professional opinion that you are not going to get the results that you think you want.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
So, these two devices really don't record any better than what's already on the DSLR or camcorder?

I wish the specs printed in the user manuals or online had a little more tech detail.
Kinda hard to make any sensible evaluation on upgrade.
At least with the video there's almost always some reference to the sensor size with pixels and the display resolution.
For audio all I get is a sensitivity level in dB, with nothing about recording bit rates and microphone AB & XY-LMNOP-alphabet soup.
Grrr.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Here's my take from a budget, non-pro point of view. Decent, passable sound can be had with a $150-$250 shotgun mic plugged straight into the camera through some sort of preamp. A few of them will even have a tone generator within the range of the recording, but below/above the audible levels that will allow you to set the levels on AGC from that unit by providing a constant volume source so it won't fluctuate.

The main problem is where the audio goes from a nice balanced XLR run to the 1/8" plug to get into the camera (noise can be introduced there).

The higher specs on the pro recorders (48 vs 24 vs 16 bit) gets you a recording that is less "quantized" and can handle more post processing; just like having a higher bit depth on an image in video. It also sounds a bit "richer" and more true to life - less digital-ish.

I record 24bit on a $250 mic (AT835R) through a mixer (solely to provide hardware limiting and phanton power) and the MA200 preamp that adapts an XLR run to RCA for my Canon XL1s camera.

Works like a champ and I get good useable sound because I have the mic on a boom and get it as close to the actors as possible and only focus on one of them at a time in the singles... then a moderate reference audio track in the wider shots that I can then cut the audio from the singles on top of.

As long as you get clean dialog, the rest is cake (compared to scrubbing crappy recordings of the dialog) - just adding environment and sound effects. Relying on the microphone to be the only audio you present in the final product is a bad idea.

Alcove is paid to capture pristine sound all the time. His gear and the ability to choose the right tool for the right job is everything (along with the experience to know that the 10 pound hammer is better here than the 12 pound hammer). Pros often (sorry to generalize you Alcove - I include myself when it comes to computers) are so distanced from what it was like to not have the experience and answers that it is difficult to get back to that mindset when asked a question. It's a good failing to have - just be patient and read into the answers a bit... specifically, the bits about the patterning differences not mattering that much are due mostly to the fact that you won't be using those microphones if you intend to capture dialog with them... environmental sounds maybe, but they won't work as room tone (that's gotta be done with the same mic in the same position as you used for the dialog).

Get a nice shotgun and whichever recorder will let you plug that in directly (XLR on both), use it as a go-to for dialog and you won't be disappointed with the results.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
knightly said:
Get a nice shotgun and whichever recorder will let you plug that in directly (XLR on both), use it as a go-to for dialog and you won't be disappointed with the results.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the point, Knightly. Both recorders originally asked about won't allow an XLR input. I completely agree with everything Alcove has said. If you're going to go with a recorder that won't allow an XLR input, you might as well go with the cheapest you can get. It won't really matter at that price range.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
And for the OP's information, not having XLR on the full run is a deal breaker because an unbalanced run of audio (in this case, not having XLR on both ends) creates what is essentially a large antenna that will gather whatever noise is out there and insert it into your audio track. The way the XLR (3-pins) works is to take the signal at the source (mic) and send it down one lead normally, and another lead as an inverted wave (the third is the ground which is shared between the two leads). As it travels down the cable, RF does enter the line just as it would have normally with an unbalanced run. The magic happens when it gets back to the recording device (or next hop on the XLR happiness train as I like to call it). The signal on the second pin is flipped back and combined with the first pin's signal.

When we have a tone and invert it, then combine, the two opposing waves cancel each other out, causing the sound to disappear. Since the second pin has an inverted signal, once flipped back, anything that entered the lines on the cable run should be the same on each, so flipping them will cause the original signal to be normal, and the signal which snuck in during the run to be an inverse wave of the interference, thereby cancelling itself out and allowing the original (now-not-flipped) signal to come through as cleanly as it can.

As the XLR > 1/8" cable has no third pin inverted signal, and the recieving instrument (camera/recorder) has no circuitry to balance the signal, any line noise (from ceiling fans, lights, refrigerators, passing cars -- anything with a chance of an open spark) will be able to stroll right in and destroy your audio... it sounds like this (fluorescent lighting caused this):
http://yafiunderground.com/Video/Reel-5.100.mov
In the quiet parts, you can hear a buzzing... this is full spectrum - so scrubbing it out destroys the dialog... the only thing to be done with it is ADR the whole shoot.

This production convinced me to save up and purchase a better solution for audio. I had to learn by going to low-budget route with a $50 atr55 shotgun microphone (works great out doors) and have it destroy the audio on my footage for a couple of productions before I figured out what the fix was. The guys are trying to save you that headache.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
for fun.. is there AN APPROPRIATE application for these severally limited devices in less than pro film making? Using only the built in mics etc...

Capturing stereo ENV sound?
Documentary table top interview recording?
...?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top