Talent recruitment

I reread your posts, Jet. Assuming you are being honest now, you did not technically mislead anyone in your original posts as you did ask "would you pay for this service", rather than "should I pay for this service". However, we all operate under the assumption that you are asking because you are an indie film maker in need of advice. You'd have done better to have introduced yourself as a business person doing market research. I could have offered my experience, since I used One Model Place (OMP.com) for years to find local talent. I have very strong opinions and a lot of experience with how well that works for commercial gigs and casting for short movies. I, however, did not understand where you were going with your line of questioning, so I didn't share that experience with you.

You can't be too upfront about your motivation in these jaded times. :(

Doug
 
My suggestion would be to completely up front from the start.

For example - if you had said in your very first post what you say
here: ”My site that is production is called HotVoc.com and is a photo
ranking site where people submit photos of themselves and people vote
if they are attractive by giving them points.” and then asked if we
would consider hiring from a site like that, I wouldn’t have felt
mislead.

You gave me the impression you were a producer or director asking
your peers how we cast. But you are starting website and
wondering if producers or directors would find your site useful.

A line blurred. Confusion resulted. My BS meter started waving.

You don’t want that. You want honest answers from people you
respect. I detected deceit as the discussion went on. something
you didn’t do, but something you could have avoided by stating
right at the start that you were starting a website to compete
with Newfaces.com, hotornot.com, and plentyoffish.

Is there a reason you felt it necessary to not mention that you were
starting a web site that might offer this service to filmmakers?
 
I am gravely disappointed about how you feel about me and my questions. I am in NO way a spammer, scam artist or any bogus thing you keep refering to me as. Forgive me then If I did not clear mark who I am.
My Name is Jet. I am the CEO and head of marketing for a new site that is currently in beta stage. Newfaces.com, hotornot.com, and plentyoffish are our competiors. I am in no way affilatted with Newfaces.com.
Forgive me if I am wrong but I think you are claiming that I am an idoit among other ill reputed names that you seem to post on me. I hope you will withdraw those crude remarks because I have only the highest respect for people like Rik.
I am not pulling any strings here. This is not a scam or what not, this is my market research for people who be interested in using my free service compared to what Newfaces charges on agencies, producers and directors.
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If you're not pimping your own site and just conducting market research, then none of my generic comments about bogus marketers apply to you... and, as I stand by what I say, that people who do that are weasels, I'm not in the mood to withdraw it...

However, I'm with the rest of the guys on one thing, you haven't been as straight with us as you could have been. Now, I hope that wasn't a deliberate ploy to gain market intelligence, but merely an oversight caused by your enthusiasm for your new project.

And, because you've now been straight with me about who you are, I'll be straight with you about online model agencies.

Acting and modeling (and film making come to that) attracts thousands upon thousands of hopefuls to it, because they perceive it to be glamorous and their ticket to a better life. These people are very vulnerable to shysters, who are prepared to take money from them, in return for false hopes and promises.

Now, the fact that your competitors are charging for this service should tell you two things: firstly, they are making their money from vulnerable star-stuck people and are therefore lower than a snakes ass... and two, they're taking the money from their models, because they can't make a living off the agency commission.

It's a basic industry principle that: representation which has to charge its client base, WILL NOT find you work... otherwise they wouldn't need to charge.

Now you say you're not going to charge... Huzzah for you, I applaud that. However, if your business model relies on making a living from commissions, then your business model may have some severe problems.

The biggest problem you're going to face, is that even if you go into this project in an honourable manner, the online representation industry is generally perceived as being run by charlatans and crooks. I don't know of any legitimate filmmaker who has ever recruited anyone from an online service... why would I need to... if I'm looking for someone desperate to get into film, reasonably attractive and prepared to work on an indie film, all I have to do is stick my head out of the window and shout "anyone want to be in a movie"... and a cue will form.

Seriously, eight years ago I held an open casting call in a remote village in the Scottish Highlands, it was February and in the middle of one of the worst blizzards I've ever seen... the local radio station got hold of the story and by 10am we had 400 people dressed like yeti's lining up outside the hotel.

The whole "online voting" angle isn't a draw either... I can't see anyway to translate that into an actual audience.

So, if your only and honorable object was market research then job done... consensus seems to be "Nah, wouldn't use one, no advantages"... Oh course, if all of this market research was leading up to a "well, as it happens lads, I just happen to have a brand new site just like that right here" type reveal... guess it's sort of blown up in your face. Sorry, shit happens when you take your product to the market.

One final piece of advice... market research is exactly that... research. It's an essential part of any business, but only if it takes place before you get your new business cards printed. If it is used as part of an opening salvo marketing strategy, you end up in situations like this... and there is nothing worst in a business situation than having invested time and money in developing a shiny new product, that does not meet the needs of your target market.

Personally, I think you've come at your market research too late in your project... the giveaway is "but I don't think you quite get what newfaces does yet" ... what that tells me, is you're already convinced you have the right answer, even when the people you are polling are saying "nah, don't like it." That kind of blind faith in a product, unsupported by market evidence, is what causes 87.4% of all bankruptcies.
 
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clive said:
If you're not pimping your own site and just conducting market research, then none of my generic comments about bogus marketers apply to you... and, as I stand by what I say, that people who do that are weasels, I'm not in the mood to withdraw it...

However, I'm with the rest of the guys on one thing, you haven't been as straight with us as you could have been. Now, I hope that wasn't a deliberate ploy to gain market intelligence, but merely an oversight caused by your enthusiasm for your new project.

And, because you've now been straight with me about who you are, I'll be straight with you about online model agencies.

Acting and modeling (and film making come to that) attracts thousands upon thousands of hopefuls to it, because they perceive it to be glamorous and their ticket to a better life. These people are very vulnerable to shysters, who are prepared to take money from them, in return for false hopes and promises.

Now, the fact that your competitors are charging for this service should tell you two things: firstly, they are making their money from vulnerable star-stuck people and are therefore lower than a snakes ass... and two, they're taking the money from their models, because they can't make a living off the agency commission.

It's a basic industry principle that: representation which has to charge its client base, WILL NOT find you work... otherwise they wouldn't need to charge.

Now you say you're not going to charge... Huzzah for you, I applaud that. However, if your business model relies on making a living from commissions, then your business model may have some severe problems.

The biggest problem you're going to face, is that even if you go into this project in an honourable manner, the online representation industry is generally perceived as being run by charlatans and crooks. I don't know of any legitimate filmmaker who has ever recruited anyone from an online service... why would I need to... if I'm looking for someone desperate to get into film, reasonably attractive and prepared to work on an indie film, all I have to do is stick my head out of the window and shout "anyone want to be in a movie"... and a cue will form.

Seriously, eight years ago I held an open casting call in a remote village in the Scottish Highlands, it was February and in the middle of one of the worst blizzards I've ever seen... the local radio station got hold of the story and by 10am we had 400 people dressed like yeti's lining up outside the hotel.

The whole "online voting" angle isn't a draw either... I can't see anyway to translate that into an actual audience.

So, if your only and honorable object was market research then job done... consensus seems to be "Nah, wouldn't use one, no advantages"... Oh course, if all of this market research was leading up to a "well, as it happens lads, I just happen to have a brand new site just like that right here" type reveal... guess it's sort of blown up in your face. Sorry, shit happens when you take your product to the market.

One final piece of advice... market research is exactly that... research. It's an essential part of any business, but only if it takes place before you get your new business cards printed. If it is used as part of an opening salvo marketing strategy, you end up in situations like this... and there is nothing worst in a business situation than having invested time and money in developing a shiny new product, that does not meet the needs of your target market.

Personally, I think you've come at your market research too late in your project... the giveaway is "but I don't think you quite get what newfaces does yet" ... what that tells me, is you're already convinced you have the right answer, even when the people you are polling are saying "nah, don't like it." That kind of blind faith in a product, unsupported by market evidence, is what causes 87.4% of all bankruptcies.
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First my reason to conceal was not a reason as all. I think Clive describes it best when he says I was just over hyped about the site. I did not know that you guys seem to see me as a indie film maker instead of someone else. I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

I did not come too late in my project, in fact the "modeling/acting" side is optional. I am currently in the design phase these opinions are perfect for the research I am conducting.

Interesting on what you have said about online charlatans and such. As I am a web 2.0 guy that (loves films:)), I see thing differnetly than say a Indie Filmer would. I have no idea that you don't use such service but I don't think they are not legit. Just scroll down their casting call list (which the link is the word casting call list) and I see countless Hollywood studio names, TV stations and major modeling agencies.

These people have been in the business for over 14 years! If those names are as you say farce, then more power to me cause I could file suit against them for using a major Hollywood name. However they aren't :( and I can't do anything to tarnish their million dollar website or high rank. http://newfaces.com/how-newfaces-works.html thats in their own words what they are about and if you look at there success page or some of the agencies they represent you will see they are very legit.

They do offer a range or services, the most important one "networking".

My proposal is to create one for free, honest, and for Indies photographers, producers and such.

And if you still find no use in that service, that fine, cause my other "analytic" research shows that there is numbers in this business. I however value your opinion Clive and the others on the site heavy so thanks for the opinions, they really help.

Oh by the way Newfaces is my competitor and you seem to kind of forget that. And the only reason I say you don't really get what Newfaces does cause I seem to feel like you still don't understand what they do.

They don't charge "star-sucked" actors, models or any other people. The people they charge are talent agencies, photographers, and industry pros like you that would want to use the service to find actors and actresses. (But since you think they're not legit I don't think you will be using them).

Anyways hopes that answers all the questions and remarks. I hope....
 
Fair points and I genuinely wish you all the best in your business venture.

You are right about one point, I don't know what newfaces.com does... and, I'm also not that impressed by either testimonials or the client list.

I've got a friend who runs an extra agency in Scotland... when they filmed Braveheart and Highlander and they needed 400 people to run over a hill with wooden swords, he got a call and his people got some of the work.

Therefore his clients include those two major studios... but, I also happen to know that 98.9% of his actors don't get a call from one year to the next and that if they hadn't been with his agency, they would have got the work anyway, because they had two legs, two arms and they've lived near the shoot.

But that's not that important.

You see, I'm sure you are right. I'm sure there is money to be made in that industry... but my mom always told me, if you lie with dogs, then you're bound to get fleas... and that industry has a very bad press, for very good reasons.

You seem like a nice person, and I really believe you are genuine... I just hope this dialogue has helped you understand some of the dynamics of this industry. My reaction isn't about you personally, it's an accumulation of years of bitter experience, watching screenwriters and actors and film makers exploited by sites just like your competitors... and I'm not joking about doing something about this. I seriously intend to educate as many people as I can about the pitfalls of this industry and drive the scammers into the sea, where they belong... with the fish and seaweed... I think I might be overly tired! LOL
 
Jet, if you're still around, I'd like to add that I won't use any "agency" that doesn't screen applicants and remove the ones who show up late (or not at all) for gigs. The trouble with One Model Place was that new actors signed up all the time and most of them were testing the waters or trying to make a quick buck without working. They didn't understand why I sent them home without pay when they arrived on the set 2 hours late. Furthermore, there was no agency for me to complain to, so those actors went on to plague productions with unprofessional behavior. Eventually, I couldn't afford to use One Model Place for new talent. The cost of planning a shoot with unreliable contractors is too high. I have vowed to only use talent agencies that have a vested interest in keeping me happy.

I shoot mostly commercial stuff that we shoot in 1 or 2 days. I probably pay more than an indie film shoot (about $50/hour including 1-way travel time). A no-show puts me in a really bad spot with my client, in addition to wasting my time.

Doug
 
That’s an excellent point, Doug.

When a website only charges the talent agencies, photographers, and
industry pros then anyone with a picture can sign up and claim to
be a model or actor.

If a commissioned agency or casting director send inexperienced,
unprofessional person they will soon be out of business. Not so
with a web site that has a constant, continuos flow of new people.
 
I'll be around for quite some time Doug, if you guys don't mind :).

Anyways I see that you guys all have had bad experience or have been around bad press for online casting.

Doug your advice about paying for quality and screened people I will take into consideration. If you don't mind me talking about my competition once again, Newfaces "offers" quality screening by having actors upgrade to show their "seriousness" in the business of acting. Upgrading does cost money for the actor but they claim it makes sure the actor is serious.

OMD.com is different in that its completely free for actors and models. This poses a problem the people who end up holding the bill (agencies).

My experience in yachting business has taught me one thing, that service is as important as the product itself if not more.

Leaving the bill up to the agencies in my stand is fair as long as you get a guaranteed satisfaction product.

My solution to this plan is to instead guarantee that you are satisfied with your casting by personally checking each actor out through "interviews". The other solution is to request money like $1 other something like that.

Clive if you want to educate, I am all for that too. In my opinion scam artist are as low as any crook or thief. I know you are probably going to be loading the article on your site, but if you would like, you can help create create those same anti-scam articles on my site. As actors are coming, they can be educated about the many pitfalls and scams out there.

So what do you guys think of my solution of guaranteeing satisfaction( or at least as close as possibly)?
Saying that I am only offering this free for a years time, you have nothing to loose and the fact that once it is a paid version, it will be less than what you Doug paid an actor for an hour work.

And if your not satisfied, you don't pay (Well you already don't pay for a year so...)

And through interviews and video interviews they are required to send, you will get people that are willing to really use the job correctly. I understand that it looks bad to have bad actors.

And so what do you say, any givers? I believe I can be different by being personal. Since my site is not like their's full out talent or acting, technically I would be only partially in the same online industry.

Plus if it really is a success, I will start to have live events by March of next year in major cities around the U.S. There are two types of events but the ones that might pertain to you is the model/acting/agencies event. Agencies are free of course and in a social and relaxed setting, you can check out if those actors are the ones you really want.

Of course thats if everything works out.

Thanks once again for your guys help
 
I think the guarantee plan has some pitfalls. It could easily be exploited by people who didn't want to pay their bill.

The paid membership upgrade option, doesn't actually prove the actor can get to the job on time or won't act like an ass when they're there. It seems to me that what the industry needs is something like the comments system on ebay. You hire an actor and the site prompts you to leave a comment. The actor then builds up a score based on reliability, demeanor and ability to do the job.

Can I made a suggestion... why not open up the debate and ask us what we'd ideally want from a casting service and find out the problems we have recruiting talent? That way you can build in systems that address those issues.

I really think the ability to read feedback from previous client would help. This is going put people who haven''t worked at a disadvantage. However, if you encouraged those clients to do "pro-bono" work for indies, then they could build up a reputation and then try for real work.

On the articles issue, that's a very generous offer... I'd like to talk to you some more about that and I suggest you PM me your email address. On one level, I think it's a great idea, but at the same time I'd need to completely understand your business before I put my name to it... because in a sense it's an endorsement that you're not a scam artist (I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying my reputation is very, very important to me)

On a personal note, if you ever decide to quit this business and go into Radio Advertising Sales, give me a bell... because you have some very, very good qualities as a salesperson; in particular your ability to withstand objections and just smoothly move back to your pitch (slick). I'm not in the radio business anymore, but if you'd been on my team, we would have made some serious money. LOL
 
Comment system like E-bay would be very easy to integrate into the design of each potential actor/model. Anybody supportive of that idea?

clive said:
Can I made a suggestion... why not open up the debate and ask us what we'd ideally want from a casting service and find out the problems we have recruiting talent? That way you can build in systems that address those issues.
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Sure, what would you guys as Indle producers and directors ideally want from a casting service and what problems other than reliability, experience and punctuality would you like in a service.

We can solve most of them except the payment issue. My subscription plan for agencies etc is at a price of free for the first 100 that sign up and $5 a month for all other agencies etc. This will help cover the cost of the business, if you guys do not find that fair, please tell me the reason.

Compared to my competitors, charging at as high as $128 a month, I find it quite fair.

Other than pure analytic data that I have calculated, I now see there is bad press for both online dating, social networking, and online casting. I however strongly feel that since there is mistrust in my competitors, that is space waiting for a honest person to come and solve as much of the issues as possible that arise.

Clive I have pm you about the article issue. I feel the same about a good name so I totally understand the caution you are partaking in. I however am still cautious about reveal of business secrets, however if you truly would like to "test the waters" of the company being built, I am up for a presentation of my business plan. Just give me an e-mail and I explain the rest.

Radio advertisement, I'm most humbled that you think I would be great salesman :). Actually I have thought about podcasting once (similar to radio). Radio advertising does sound fun, and I wouldn't mind the possible income :). I am actually quite interested about advertising on radio, can you tell me more in a e-mail? Currently, web marketing and guerrilla marketing are my familiar fields but I have yet to understand the grounds of radio advertisement.
 
One Model Place had a comment and/or rating system. The trouble is that I don't think anybody posts negative comments, at least partly because the models/actors have a place where they can comment about producers and the producers cannot see what is being said. I think many producers are afraid of what models might say about them. And, of course, the models can also rate the producers.

The commissioned agency works better for at least 4 reasons ...

1) I don't pay the agency to find talent. I only pay if the talent shows up and does the job.

2) I can meet the agency face to face, establish a rapport, prove that I'm a real person offering a real, paying opportunity, not just some anonymous dude trying to lure some model into an alley.

3) The agency can find a replacement if an actor has a legitimate reason for not being able to make it for an appointment.

4) If an actor doesn't show up for work a few times, the agency is losing money, so that actor will be dealt with accordingly.

I really wanted OMP to work for me, and I hired 8 different actors for 6 different gigs. One of them showed up on time, 5 showed up late, one cancelled at the last minute and one just didn't show up. There is no way I can live with that. Having paid to be a member of OMP for several years, I can tell you that it was simply too easy for people to sign up and claim to be models or actors. There has to be a vetting process, and there has to be real consequences for arriving late on a set.

There is no way I'd go back to OMP or any similar service for actors.
 
oakstreetphotovideo said:
One Model Place had a comment and/or rating system. The trouble is that I don't think anybody posts negative comments, at least partly because the models/actors have a place where they can comment about producers and the producers cannot see what is being said. I think many producers are afraid of what models might say about them. And, of course, the models can also rate the producers.

The commissioned agency works better for at least 4 reasons ...

1) I don't pay the agency to find talent. I only pay if the talent shows up and does the job.

2) I can meet the agency face to face, establish a rapport, prove that I'm a real person offering a real, paying opportunity, not just some anonymous dude trying to lure some model into an alley.

3) The agency can find a replacement if an actor has a legitimate reason for not being able to make it for an appointment.

4) If an actor doesn't show up for work a few times, the agency is losing money, so that actor will be dealt with accordingly.

I really wanted OMP to work for me, and I hired 8 different actors for 6 different gigs. One of them showed up on time, 5 showed up late, one cancelled at the last minute and one just didn't show up. There is no way I can live with that. Having paid to be a member of OMP for several years, I can tell you that it was simply too easy for people to sign up and claim to be models or actors. There has to be a vetting process, and there has to be real consequences for arriving late on a set.

There is no way I'd go back to OMP or any similar service for actors.
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All I can say is that you have had some pretty bad experience with online services such as OMD. Seeing that that Omd market share has been going down, OMD has some major miscomings.

To solve the comments system problem is fairly simple, have comments on actors and producers become anonymous after working with each other. That way there is no fear in knowing who posted what.

The other solution to that problem can be easily solved with a scale of reliability, behavior, punctuality etc ranking from 1-10. A scale for both producers and actors allow them rate each other and gain rankings.

It is true that you can meet agencies face to face, but unless a agency lives right next door to you, that is extra time and money spent. By offering job posts that cost a certain amount of money, you have already established that you as a producers are serious. I will also have team that hand picks and screens every producer or agency that looks to hire.

It is true that an actor not showing up to work will be dealt with by the agency, but like so, you don't have to limit your listing call to "one" person. By listing online, applicants will come looking for you. After you check out the comments they have, their video interview, and their ratings, you can ask every one of the actors that you have chosen to come. Based on the rule of "first come, first serve", you have just locked in your actor/actresses. It is always, good to have insurance I say and you will not have to pay the actor anything until they show up.

If you still distrust online casting places like OMD.com, I totally understand that. I am grateful for the experience you have just shared with me. If there is anything else I can do to convince you of this service, tell me.

So the debates is still open, any other issues you guys find in online casting places?
 
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