Syncing Audio

[Beatlesfan1225]

So I wasn't exactly sure what category to put this in, but since it's mostly relating to how to sync audio AT the filming, I thought this was probably a good fit.

Anyway, I've decided to start recording the audio from my Rode VideoMic into an audio recorder to sync later in post, due to the fact that I get a lot of hissing noise when I plug it into my Canon T3i, and I don't want to hack my camera to overcome the AGC. (Which seems to be the cause of the problem)

So, when I am recording the audio during the filming, what is the easiest way to do this? Obviously I should use my clapper at the beginning of each shot, but do I just keep the recorder on the entire time, or do I turn it on and off at the same time I do so on the camera? I'm trying to find the simple way to do this.

Also while we're at it, does anyone have any suggestions for how to sync it well in post?

Thanks so much everyone!

 

[Cracker Funk]

During production, when you roll camera, roll audio. When you cut camera, cut audio. If you have the luxury of having someone log the file #s of which audio takes match which camera takes, that will help, though a slate is all that's really needed.

In post, syncing is actually pretty easy. Many people use Pluraleyes, and it has a free trial. Personally, I don't even feel it necessary. I don't even use the slate for syncing (only for logging); any hard consonant (p,t,k,whatever) is pretty easy to sync between audio and video.

I'm quite confident you could do it, without my instruction, but just to be safe -- here's the method:

For the shot you are trying to sync, play the video, and listen for anything that would be easy to sync. The traditional slate serves this purpose by being a loud and sudden clap. But the slate isn't part of your edited work, so syncing to that would be inconvenient. So, listen for anything else. Usually, dialogue is enough. Listen for when someone says a "t", or any other hard consonant. Pause at that moment, then dial it in to the exact frame when you first hear that "t". Do the same thing for the audio track. Line them up.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

During production, when you roll camera, roll audio. When you cut camera, cut audio. If you have the luxury of having someone log the file #s of which audio takes match which camera takes, that will help, though a slate is all that's really needed.

In post, syncing is actually pretty easy. Many people use Pluraleyes, and it has a free trial. Personally, I don't even feel it necessary. I don't even use the slate for syncing (only for logging); any hard consonant (p,t,k,whatever) is pretty easy to sync between audio and video.

I'm quite confident you could do it, without my instruction, but just to be safe -- here's the method:

For the shot you are trying to sync, play the video, and listen for anything that would be easy to sync. The traditional slate serves this purpose by being a loud and sudden clap. But the slate isn't part of your edited work, so syncing to that would be inconvenient. So, listen for anything else. Usually, dialogue is enough. Listen for when someone says a "t", or any other hard consonant. Pause at that moment, then dial it in to the exact frame when you first hear that "t". Do the same thing for the audio track. Line them up.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

All of this is amazingly helpful, thank you! So is running my Rode VideoMic through a Zoom H1 a good solution? I'm just wondering if I should do this, or find a way to make the mic input on the t3i work better with the Rode. So I suppose what I'm asking is, Is syncing the audio a worthwhile process to achieve good audio, or should I find a way to have the camera do it for me?

 

[Cracker Funk]

VERY worthwhile. Even if you find a way to disable the AGC, the T3i records really poor audio. The Zoom H1 would be MUCH better, just from this perspective.

There is another perspective that has nothing to do with the quality of the audio. I LOVE the fact that my camera is not bogged down by any connected cables. It is liberating to be able to move your camera wherever you want, without worrying about that stupid boom cable (a seasoned boom-operator would probably say that it is liberating to not be attached to that stupid camera). Perhaps you don't have that perspective, because you haven't yet tied down your camera with a boom-mic?

In my opinion, keeping camera and audio seperate is DEFINITELY the way to go.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

Now when you say the H1 will record much better than the T3i even if I get the AGC fixed... Do you mean the H1 standalone or attached to the Rode Videomic?

And yes, you bring up a fantastic point. I can attach my Rode VideoMic to my boom pole and feed that into the H1 recording, my operator can move wherever he needs to be, and also keeps my camera without any cables or clunky mic hotshoe'd on top.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Plug in a mic, and put it on the end of a stick.

BOOM!












Pun intended.

 

[Ash93]

i dont mean to hijack this thread but when it comes to editing, which dialogue would use for this: having a dialogue scene between 2 people in one angle, then reshooting at another angle. which audio would you use when editing? do you alternate audio whenever person a talks or what?

 

[Cracker Funk]

i dont mean to hijack this thread but when it comes to editing, which dialogue would use for this: having a dialogue scene between 2 people in one angle, then reshooting at another angle. which audio would you use when editing? do you alternate audio whenever person a talks or what?

That is entirely up to your audio editor (aka, you). If the audio is clean, you would probably use the actual audio from each video take. Hypothetically, you might find a reason to use audio from a take that is different from the video you are using. But in most situations, I think the matching audio works best.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

Plug in a mic, and put it on the end of a stick.

BOOM!

Pun intended.

Thanks haha, I will go out to Best Buy tomorrow and pick up the H1. As usual, your advice is solid and extremely helpful, thanks again Cracker!


Oh and to Ash93, CrackerFunk is right, it's up to you. But keep in mind if you shot it at different angles, the audio will be slightly different than if you had shot it continuously, so what I'd do is record your separate audio for each angle, and match it all up later.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Thanks haha, I will go out to Best Buy tomorrow and pick up the H1. As usual, your advice is solid and extremely helpful, thanks again Cracker!


Oh and to Ash93, CrackerFunk is right, it's up to you. But keep in mind if you shot it at different angles, the audio will be slightly different than if you had shot it continuously, so what I'd do is record your separate audio for each angle, and match it all up later.

You might not want the H1. All I said is that it would be better than recording in-camera. You might want to spend a little bit more (not much more).

I'd wait at least a day. Alcove will surely be online, and I think we can expect him to chime in, and all of your problems will be solved. Then, you make your purchase.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

You might not want the H1. All I said is that it would be better than recording in-camera. You might want to spend a little bit more (not much more).

I'd wait at least a day. Alcove will surely be online, and I think we can expect him to chime in, and all of your problems will be solved. Then, you make your purchase.

Alright I will.
The reason I'm highly considering the H1 is because-
1. I can get it at a good price locally. This is huge for me because I like to be able to have an easy quick return if I can't get it to work exactly how I want it to. (And audio equipment is always a bit iffy)
2. It's exactly in my price range. I don't want to spend more than 100 bucks on this if possible, I've already bought a brand new camera, lenses, the Rode VideoMic, I'd rather keep the recorder low.

But yes, Alcove is the person to ask. Hopefully he'll see this thread in the next day, and hopefully he could give me his 2 cents on the Zoom H1!

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

Also I'd like to pose another question with that of the one I just posted. Does it really matter if you use the H1, or any audio recorder if you are simply using it with an external mic anyway? It seems like the quality would be the same using the H1 vs a more expensive recorder if I'm only using it to plug into a VideoMic and monitor it via the headphone jack.

 

[harmonica44]

It matters which audio recorder, because of the preamps. Unless your mic has amps, as I am not familiar with that mic. However, I hear that most recorders have better amps, compared to mics that come with their own. So yes it matters, depending on your amps. Not sure if it matters otherwise, but I only know my own equipment mostly and not yours. You might want to get something that records in 96 khz as well, but ask Alcove about that, as I am not sure if that's as important.

Here's a tip though. When you do editing you will probably only end up using 50% of the audios from the takes you want to use. That's what I find on average with the way I edit. Let's say the camera is on actor A, while he is talking. I usually use the original audio track from the original take, if the track is clean enough. But as soon as the take cuts to Actor B, and actor A is still talking I can then switch the audio, to whatever audio take, was best for that line, since the camera is not on the actor.

So probably 50% of your audio will not be the original take cause of that. Sometimes I like switching words here and there though, if I felt the words were said better in other takes, just so long as you can match them up. You can match them up syllable by syllable I was told on here, but I'm still learning to and am yet to try it. You can also add in other things. I was playing back one of my video takes, and I didn't like it as much, but I love how the actor too a deep breath in frustration. I like another video take better, so I used it, but I dubbed the deep breath sound from the other take, over it, and it worked perfectly without looking fake. It's good to think about things like that and how they make a difference.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

It matters which audio recorder, because of the preamps. Unless your mic has amps, as I am not familiar with that mic. However, I hear that most recorders have better amps, compared to mics that come with their own. So yes it matters, depending on your amps. Not sure if it matters otherwise, but I only know my own equipment mostly and not yours. You might want to get something that records in 96 khz as well, but ask Alcove about that, as I am not sure if that's as important.

Here's a tip though. When you do editing you will probably only end up using 50% of the audios from the takes you want to use. That's what I find on average with the way I edit. Let's say the camera is on actor A, while he is talking. I usually use the original audio track from the original take, if the track is clean enough. But as soon as the take cuts to Actor B, and actor A is still talking I can then switch the audio, to whatever audio take, was best for that line, since the camera is not on the actor.

So probably 50% of your audio will not be the original take cause of that. Sometimes I like switching words here and there though, if I felt the words were said better in other takes, just so long as you can match them up. You can match them up syllable by syllable I was told on here, but I'm still learning to and am yet to try it. You can also add in other things. I was playing back one of my video takes, and I didn't like it as much, but I love how the actor too a deep breath in frustration. I like another video take better, so I used it, but I dubbed the deep breath sound from the other take, over it, and it worked perfectly without looking fake. It's good to think about things like that and how they make a difference.

Very good advice Harmonica, thank you. So how are the preamps on the H1? Anyone know?

 

[Chrisk]

Doesn't the T3i have manual audio levels without hacking? Always thought that was one of the key things about it.
Whatever the answer if you've got money for a recorder, that's gonna be better.

When I'm on set (taking sound) I have a clipboard and log my file numbers against scene, slate and take numbers which I hand over either to the director or the script supervisor who tends to be logging the takes too. Also am able to name file numbers according to scene and take numbers quickly too but prefer the paper way as you can log more info. Always handy to still log takes you are not recording but just mark MOS where your filename would of been.

Generally the procedure goes as follows.
Once everyone seems set the AD will ask everyone to 'turnover'. Sound will enter record and notify the AD, generally by loudly calling 'Speed', then the CO will enter record and notify everyone by yelling 'Rolling' (sometimes they will call speed too so I call 'Sound speed' to differentiate'). Once the camera has a fix on the slate he will ask the clapper to 'mark it'. Then the clapper/loader will call out shot information and clap. Once the CO/focus puller has adjusted focus to the subject the director will call 'Action'

Sometimes I also need a moment to move the boom from the board over to the talent. It's normally pretty obvious when the mic is in the right place and nearly always beat the CO but will call when I'm set.

I try to always record before the camera and cut after. It's no good being too hasty stopping record because sometimes everyone else carries on rolling and either use second sticks or just repeat a small section. If you have dropped out don't just restart, call the cut so everyone is 'on the same page'.

 

[knightly]

With that H1, you'll be stuck with the 1/8" input... which will soon frustrate you as it did me. Any fluorescent lights, ceiling fans or refridgerators anywhere near where you're shooting will end up sending full spectrum RF interference into your audio. It will drive you to distraction.

The solution is an XLR system. The circuitry in the XLR technology virtually eliminates line noise (your mic cable is a long antenna) and allows you to capture much more pristine audio. You'll want to upgrade past the video mic... and you'll need something that will allow you to do so. Since you're in the market for a recorder now, upgrade to the Zoom H4N (you'll possible need a cheap adapter to get the audio into this guy). This will allow you to upgrade your microphone at some point and only have the 3 (Mic, Mic, Recorder) expenses rather than 4 (Mic, Mic, Recorder, Recorder). This will save you $200ish somewhere in the not to distant future.

 

[Alcove Audio]

It's all been fairly well covered.

Until you have the scratch to invest in even prosumer gear (read: low impedance - units that use XLR connections) you will have to pay a lot of attention to the limitations of consumer products.

Using the Rode VM and any of the cheap pocket recorders means that you will have to keep your cable lengths short (10' or less) and be very sure to keep those cables away from electric cords, cell phones, PDAs, etc. as well as fluorescent lights, as Knightly mentioned. The minipin (3.5mm, 1/8") audio inputs (preamps) of pocket recorders are marginally better than on a DSLR.

Do all of the right things on the set - slate and announce each take, keep detailed audio & video logs, and listen to the audio via headphones at all times. This will save you headaches in audio post.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

Ok to answer the question about the T3i- Yes it has manual so you can turn down the AGC, but in result it just weakens your sound and your volume goes way down... It's not a good solution at all, Canon has yet to make it simple to simply turn the AGC off.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the tips. I think at this point in time I'm going to go with the H1 simply because it's in my price range, and I don't plan to upgrade my VM for awhile. I don't really mind the 1/8 plugs, I'll just make sure to pack adapters.

Thanks so much for the info everyone!

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

Also I found this test online that actually relates to everything in this thread, the T3i, the Rode, and the H1. The guy starts off with the Rode plugged into the T3i, and you'll notice the hissing from AGC right off the bat. Now he conducts tests with every available configuration with these devices, and you'll notice when he plugs the Rode into the H1, that's when he gets the clearest sound, and it actually sounds fairly decent!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDe4O-GoDzk



Indietalk seems to always give my Youtube links a white box.. so here's the link if you are getting that too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDe4O-GoDzk

 

[Alcove Audio]

It matters which audio recorder, because of the preamps. Unless your mic has amps, as I am not familiar with that mic. However, I hear that most recorders have better amps, compared to mics that come with their own.

No prosumer or professional mic has "amps". No stand-alone recorder has any "amps" (except possibly for the headphones). "Amp" is short for amplifier, that which is used to increase the gain of sound to be played through a speaker.

A mixer and/or recorder (and other devices used to capture sound) use "pre-amps" (before or pre- amplification). A pre-amp processes audio signals in preparation for use further down the audio stream. If you don't want to say "pre-amps" then call them "pres".

Pre-amps are audio signal processors; amps make audio signals LOUD.

Please, harmonica, don't talk about things of which you have insufficient knowledge.