Super 8 and Sound Sync Issues

[JamesB]

Hello.

I had a question about Super 8 cameras and syncing sound please.

What exactly is the reason why super 8 do not sync well? Is there a limit to the amount
of dialogue which should be written with such a camera? I have read about "crystal sync"
but do not quite understand what this refers to.

Just wondering because I'm about to shoot with a Nizo and wanted some
speaking parts in the film,..thanks.

 

[Zensteve]

The average wind-up or battery-powered Super-8 (or other film camera, for that matter) does its best to maintain a constant fps, but it won't be precise enough for matching the recorded audio without a lot of drifting. The result ends up looking like a badly-dubbed kungfu movie.

A synched motor on the camera is a precision device that ensures that the motor is always giving a constant 24 (or whatever's selected) fps, that can be reliably matched up to audio.

If you don't have crystal-sync, you can get away with shorter cuts. The longer a cut, the more drift there will be. You can also make a lot of manual adjustments in your NLE these days, so if you like fixing up audio you can still make something fairly decent.

What you shooting with it?

 

[directorik]

If the camera does not have "crystal sync" that means it does
not run at a constant speed. The speed varies very slightly due
to power fluctuations, film tautness, or slight slipping over the
sprockets. The eyes cannot notice it when projected but the slight
variations are there. Crystal sync on both the camera and the
audio recorder keep both machines running at exactly the same,
constant speed. So they stay in sync.

You can write all the dialogue you want - it's the shooting of the
dialogue that presents a problem. You'll never know, exactly, when
there will be a speed variation that will alter sync. Could be a couple
of minutes - could be a few frames. In order to plan for problems
you will need to shoot cut-aways. I believe Robert Rodriguez is famous
for using cut-aways when editing "El Mariachi " because he used a
non-sync camera.

 

[JamesB]

Hi Zen-
Thanks for the response.
Initially it was going to be a 5-7 minute art film without dialogue, just something visually beautiful with minor plot, but I got to thinking maybe some audio and more plot wouldn't be bad, but of course, that complicated things a little more.

May just play it safe with merely a soundtrack until I can afford sound luxuries. I have pretty much used up any sound budget in shooting tests of Kodak 100D(more error than trial!).

 

[JamesB]

If the camera does not have "crystal sync" that means it does
not run at a constant speed. The speed varies very slightly due
to power fluctuations, film tautness, or slight slipping over the
sprockets. The eyes cannot notice it when projected but the slight
variations are there. Crystal sync on both the camera and the
audio recorder keep both machines running at exactly the same,
constant speed. So they stay in sync.

Ahhh..thank you. So this is basically a problem of analog vs. digital. That makes sense.

 

[Alcove Audio]

It's not the difference between digital and analog. The crystals are - in essence - highly accurate "tuning forks" that oscillate at the same frequencies. These crystals regulated the speed at which the analog audio recorders and film cameras run.

Probably before your time, but before digital watches it was a big deal to have a watch with quartz movement (quartz crystal) so that the watch kept extremely accurate time. A very expensive watch could be accurate within a few seconds over the course of a month.

 

[2001 Productions]

FWIW, my first feature was shot with a non-crystal Super-8 camera and double-system sound. I figured, eh, how bad could it be?

BIG MISTAKE!!! In most cases, the sync was good for about 2 seconds or less, then started to drift. And, since this was the pre-digi days (1989) I had no way to cheat it (speed up/slow down audio or video). It was horrible!

IT's Scoopicman was smarter than me. He also shot a feature on Super-8, but he post-dubbed all his dialogue. If you can't get a crystal-sync camera, I highly recommend you follow his example, not mine.

 

[JamesB]

IT's Scoopicman was smarter than me. He also shot a feature on Super-8, but he post-dubbed all his dialogue. If you can't get a crystal-sync camera, I highly recommend you follow his example, not mine.

That still sounds like a pain in the arse. They had to record the audio inhouse I take it? Something nice about recording film and audio simultaneously, seems more natural.

So I take that Super 8 with sound is going to be a near impossibility unless there is some luck and heavy editing involved. Hmmm, might possibly go with a cheap 16mm when I can afford to do so. A friend told me to go HD, which can be done for about $2000 with a camera, but I really like the look of film. Plus I want to learn manual editing and experience all that. I will probably telecine at home here - I am a control freak like that lol.

 

[directorik]

If your 16mm camera is a non-sync camera you will have
the same issues. There are super 8 cameras that are sync
cameras and there is a company that will add crystal sync
to any electric super 8 camera. I had my Beaulieu 4008
and Canon 1041 converted.

I think there is a company that has an external crystal
sync motor you can use to control the camera.

 

[Zensteve]

So I take that Super 8 with sound is going to be a near impossibility unless there is some luck and heavy editing involved.

No... just knowledge & preparation.

I will probably telecine at home here - I am a control freak like that lol.

It will look like crap compared to having a lab do it on a machine made for the job.

Why would you go to so much trouble to shoot on film (because you like the look), and then be satisfied with a dodgy digital capture? You'd be better off shooting digital to start with, if that's your plan.

Just my opiniated opinion.

 

[JamesB]

No... just knowledge & preparation.

It will look like crap compared to having a lab do it on a machine made for the job.

Very true. It's not the cost of processing the film that scares me, it's the thought of having to mail it or something going wrong with the film when it's in other hands. Especially genius such as mine. bwahaha.

 

[2001 Productions]

It's not the cost of processing the film that scares me, it's the thought of having to mail it or something going wrong with the film when it's in other hands.

That's a bit confusing. You have to ship the exposed stock to a lab to have it processed anyway, so it's out of your hands at that point -- unless of course you have your own lab.

Once it's processed, the lab can very likely Telecine you a digital work print at the same facility, so there is no increase in risk.

Unless I missed your point, which is entirely possible.

And yes, post-sync'ing dialogue would be a PITA, but less so than trying to sync live tracks to non-governed footage. Trust me on this one! If you're gonna shoot film with double-system sound, get yourself a crystal-governed camera.

 

[JamesB]

That's a bit confusing. You have to ship the exposed stock to a lab to have it processed anyway, so it's out of your hands at that point -- unless of course you have your own lab.

Once it's processed, the lab can very likely Telecine you a digital work print at the same facility, so there is no increase in risk.

Unless I missed your point, which is entirely possible.

And yes, post-sync'ing dialogue would be a PITA, but less so than trying to sync live tracks to non-governed footage. Trust me on this one! If you're gonna shoot film with double-system sound, get yourself a crystal-governed camera.

Ah ok, sorry about that. I was always under the impression you had to send it off to be processed and then to another place for telecine. my bad!

 

[Zensteve]

I was always under the impression you had to send it off to be processed and then to another place for telecine

That can be the case sometimes, sure.

Btw, in case you are looking for recomendations:

Yale Film & Video - they have decent rates for processing & telecine, though the last time I used them it was to SD. I would hope they have an HD transfer option by now.