SSD Field Recorders and the 5DMKIII 4K and RAW

OmarMagdi

OmarMagdi

Has anybody ever wondered why not one field recorder has 4K and Raw abilities or at least one of them, and I prefer 4K with ProRes or DNxHD, while they all store data on SSD's which are pretty darn fast and data storage and quality will have no issues since there are 1TB SSD's nowadays and you wont have to sell a kidney to get one, Samsung sells it's evo 1TB for 600USD give or take!

It's driving me crazy! not everyone can afford a red or so!!

and honestly that will have huge benefits, because the sensor won't have to crop much, which will cause less Aliasing and so on.. The field recorder industry needs to step it up, and they need to do something for 5D users and so, because all we have is HDMI on the 5DMKIII which I own SDI won't work, and It should be affordable too, the Samurai blade from atomOS is for around 1,300USD, if any company was able to make a 4K/RAW recorder which is compact too, and it got up to somewhere around 1,500-1,700USD or even 2,000USD filmmakers and DSLR shooters will go crazy over such product!

What do you think? and why do you think the companies are not moving towards such innovations?​
 
The Odyssey7Q does all of that for a bit over $2,000, and has HDMI (though admittedly you need to purchase the 'module' for your camera).

The issue is not the recorder - it's the camera itself. The 5D is outputting 1080 via HDMI, so even if you could record in 4K, all you'd get is a 1080 image inside a large black box.

Even at 10-bit 4:2:2, you're limited by what the camera's giving you.

Also in terms of HDMI vs SDI, there are plenty of options for HDMI recorders, and SDI is probably the most commonly used professional connection for video output, so it stands to reason that field recorders aimed at a professional market would implement it.
 
True!
I totally forgot about the 5D's HDMI output thing.. Hmm, I hope Canon rolls out an update, Though I dont think it will happen so they can market and sell the 1DC and the C line... :grumpy:
 
why does a Photo Camera, need a raw video accessory add on? surely you would invest in a proper video camera and save money.
 
Well have you got more than $15K to invest in just a camera brain and a sensor?
I don't, Most filmmakers like myself don't, so we try as much as we can to get the most of what we can afford without selling our kidneys.
 
OmarMagdi said:
What do you think? and why do you think the companies are not moving towards such innovations?​
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They are. 4k in general is still in the early stages of adoption, so it will take a couple of years but it's clearly where everything is going.

The Blackmagic 4k camera is basically what you've described, except cheaper as you don't need to buy both a camera and recorder seperately. While it's clearly been delayed I'd be really surprised if it's not generally available by this time next year. That'll likely start prompting a lot of similar responses from their competitors - but it's clear that commonly available inexpensive 4k/raw isn't very far off, just a year or two.

OmarMagdi said:
It's driving me crazy! not everyone can afford a red or so!!​
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Not everybody needs a red either. Do you really need one?

I'm not sure why you're so adamant that a camera you bought knowing that it doesn't do 4k raw should be able to do so, and cheaply at that - why did you buy it if you really needed 4k? Why not rent a 4k camera if you really need it? Or buy a used Red One?

Does it drive you crazy that your Honda Accord can't be upgraded to BMW M5 performance for $2000? Do you angrily demand that someone should come up with a solution for this? What makes your camera any different?
 
ItDonnedOnMe said:
I'm not sure why you're so adamant that a camera you bought knowing that it doesn't do 4k raw should be able to do so, and cheaply at that - why did you buy it if you really needed 4k? Why not rent a 4k camera if you really need it? Or buy a used Red One?
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I do respect your point here, and regarding the Blackmagic, I thought about it a lot, and got it from a friend for a week or so to play with, But I chose the 5D over it because I am a full frame guy, though I own a 60D a t2i and got a GH3 as a gift recently, they're more of a backup and the 60D was my first HDSLR and I got the 550D for a bargain 'Just so no one comes and tells me you're spending all of this money which you could've saved and got a scarlet'

And me wanting to get 4K Raw for cheap is not a bad thing? Hell! the sensor can do it, and the camera can process Raw, just a matter of storage speed and capacity which a recorder with an SSD can do, so why not?!

And you just made a point, you just said the the whole market is and will be moving towards 4K sooner or later, and that was the main thing I thought about when I was buying my 5D, that hey you'll be getting 4K very soon, and I don't need it as a NEED NEED, I want it because it will give me more flexibility when I am shooting, If I want to do some stuff in post and the quality is going to be greater than 1080P, for cropping for stabilizing for a ton of things, I don't need it to solely project in 4K, there is not much for that either so far.
 
OmarMagdi said:
enlighten me please...
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You have been enlightened, you have been given information, the solution is simple yet you look for poor alternatives that are costly and not mass produced.

If you want 4k DSLR go buy a canon 1D-C

If you want Raw buy a black magic.

So many solutions... Cost less than what your asking for too...
 
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Firstly, the 5D is not designed to do 4k, or raw processing, and even the Magic Lantern hack stresses it out more than should be necessary. REDs and Alexas which do raw 'for a living' (the Alexa doesn't even do raw out of the box) have fans and heatsinks, which te 5D does not. Even the Blackmagic Pocket revolves around delivering raw.

The 5DmkIII is a camera for photographers. Why people buy it and expect it to suddenly have a firmware update that gives them 6k ProRes, raw, and a magic 'make it look like Hollywood button' is beyond me.

Apart from that, Canon have a pro/cinema line of cameras to protect, so there's no way the 5D would get anything like the same features as cameras 10x their price, simply as a business move.

The 5D can do what it can do. What are you shooting? Feature films? No? Well why do you need raw then? Feature films and Documentaries? No? Well why do you need 4k?

If you really needed those things, you'd have bought a camera which has them or you'd rent a camera as you need it.

Hey, I mean if you desperately needed those things, you'd probably have bought a Blackmagic and simply worked around the lens size non-issue.

They still use 5D's without hack on television and 5D's and 1D's alongside Alexas, Reds and C500s on big budget Hollywood feature films. It's always been about the person behind the camera.
 
Wait, when did magic lantern enable 4k raw from the 5DmkIII? The best I've seen from ML is ~2.5k - but that's in a crop mode that's even smaller than BM's 3x crop, so not much use if full frame is your primary concern. I'm pretty sure there's no way to get even close to full frame 4k out of it, and it's not just a limitation of the card speeds - it's how fast the data can be read from the sensor.

And the upcoming 4k blackmagic camera is a super35 sized sensor, so it's not that far off of full frame. I'm a "full frame" guy myself, but after shooting my first project on the pocket I'm pretty well convinced it's a better upgrade to my mkII than a mkIII would be. Sure, it'll take some recalibration of my mind & eye to get used to the crop, but it's worth it for the quality.
 
Full frame and lens crop really doesn't mean much - you get slightly more depth of field for the field of view on a full frame, but so what?

The only really difference is how you think about frame sizes, and if that's the one thing stopping you from getting a higher resolution camera... Well, I guess higher resolution really isn't that important to you after all
 
8salacious9 said:
You have been enlightened, you have been given information, the solution is simple yet you look for poor alternatives that are costly and not mass produced.

If you want 4k DSLR go buy a canon 1D-C

If you want Raw buy a black magic.

So many solutions... Cost less than what your asking for too...
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Whoa man, calm down, this is just a simple discussion, I am here to learn and share experience.. so hold your horses man :wait:

jax_rox said:
The 5DmkIII is a camera for photographers. Why people buy it and expect it to suddenly have a firmware update that gives them 6k ProRes, raw, and a magic 'make it look like Hollywood button' is beyond me.

Apart from that, Canon have a pro/cinema line of cameras to protect, so there's no way the 5D would get anything like the same features as cameras 10x their price, simply as a business move.
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That's a good point, but me using the 5D MKII and MKIII a lot and owning a 60D for sometime now kind of raised my expectations about it and maybe thats why I am thinking in a different direction!

jax_rox said:
The 5DmkIII is a camera for photographers. Why people buy it and expect it to suddenly have a firmware update that gives them 6k ProRes, raw, and a magic 'make it look like Hollywood button' is beyond me.

Apart from that, Canon have a pro/cinema line of cameras to protect, so there's no way the 5D would get anything like the same features as cameras 10x their price, simply as a business move.
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I guess I'll make that move in sometime, but I just need to go and try the BMCC on my rigs and stuff to make sure it fits and so on because changing the body form might cost me a shit load of money, specially that rigs and such equipment here in Egypt cost a ton of money, Thanks!


And guys c'mon this is a forum for people like me and yourselves who want to learn and know more about their craft there's nothing wrong with us being different with how we think, everybody thinks in a way that suits them and when someone comes and changes that way in a convincing way like how (ItDonnedOnMe) did with me, then it's a success and that's why we are all here.​
 
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jax_rox said:
Full frame and lens crop really doesn't mean much - you get slightly more depth of field for the field of view on a full frame, but so what?

The only really difference is how you think about frame sizes, and if that's the one thing stopping you from getting a higher resolution camera... Well, I guess higher resolution really isn't that important to you after all
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Well, Higher res does matter to me, That's why I started this whole thread :yes:

And I'll wait for the Blackmagic Cinema Production Camera to be released so I can get my hands on one.
 
OmarMagdi said:
That's a good point, but me using the 5D MKII and MKIII a lot and owning a 60D for sometime now kind of raised my expectations about it and maybe thats why I am thinking in a different direction!
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I totally understand, but again you seem to be missing the fact that the 5DmkII or III is a camera designed for photographers, and indeed from a photography standpoint is much of a step-up. A mkIII over a 60D doesn't provide much better in terms of video, apart from a slightly better codec and a larger sensor.

I guess I'll make that move in sometime, but I just need to go and try the BMCC on my rigs and stuff to make sure it fits and so on because changing the body form might cost me a shit load of money, specially that rigs and such equipment here in Egypt cost a ton of money, Thanks!
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It depends on the rigs. The BMPCC is more likely to fit than the BMCC, the BMCC is a bit bigger than a standard DSLR, and a lot mroe awkward to hold.


OmarMagdi said:
Well, Higher res does matter to me, That's why I started this whole thread :yes:

And I'll wait for the Blackmagic Cinema Production Camera to be released so I can get my hands on one.
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My point is - you can go and get the ProRes quality you want now (or even raw) in a Pocket cam for $1,000. If you were that keen for it, you'd have already done it - so you don't really need ProRes or raw, and then that begs the question do you really need 4K?

Most feature films are exhibited in 2k still. So do you need 4k?

If not, then why spend another $1-4k on a camera body that's going to be outdated again in 18 months? Spend your money on glass, good glass is a better investment than any camera body.
 
jax_rox said:
I totally understand, but again you seem to be missing the fact that the 5DmkII or III is a camera designed for photographers, and indeed from a photography standpoint is much of a step-up. A mkIII over a 60D doesn't provide much better in terms of video, apart from a slightly better codec and a larger sensor.
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That is true.. unfortunately.


jax_rox said:
It depends on the rigs. The BMPCC is more likely to fit than the BMCC, the BMCC is a bit bigger than a standard DSLR, and a lot mroe awkward to hold.
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Well, I have a Zacuto Scorpion, I don't know if that will fit or I'll need to get the BM Stinger from Zacuto Also.


jax_rox said:
If not, then why spend another $1-4k on a camera body that's going to be outdated again in 18 months? Spend your money on glass, good glass is a better investment than any camera body.
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Thank god that I have bought most of the L range that I will need in the past two years or so, actually I spent 90% of what I made for about 15 months buying lenses and I hope it will be a long time before I need glass, I have about 8-9 L lenses that I have invensted a lot, A LOT of money into, and now, I feel it's time to get better quality in other aspects like Rigs, EVF's, Audio, Editing and so on.
 
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