Sound on the Big Screen

[mckinise]

I have a project that we are thinking about bringing to film festivals. We are worried about proper audio video syncing. Currently, the original sound, ADR, Foley, and score playback flawlessly on computer, and we have gotten it to play back on a couple different televisions with excellent synchronization of both spoken word and action sequences.

We are worried about the synchronization of sound in a larger theater. Does anyone have any tips or ideas that would help us get proper sound on the big screen?

Particulars:

GH2 Video
Basic audio was recorded with a Tascam DR-40 via Audio Technica Shotgun mic
Foley was recorded into the DR-40
Edited on laptop with external speakers and Studio Monitors
Video Editing Sony Vegas Pro 12
Audio Editing Sony Vegas Pro 12 and Audacity

Currently experimenting with 5.1 Surround Sound

And just to be precise, no budget. And sound was captured with a mixture of stereo mics for ambient noise/room noise. Shotgun for the majority of vocals with some spoken parts recorded directly into the DR-40 in mono mode.

 

[Alcove Audio]

It doesn't matter one bit what you used to record the sound, all that matters is the mixing platform and, ultimately, the compatibility of the film/mix with the playback system.

Mixing 5.1 for theatrical playback really needs, at the very least, some semblance of a real mix facility. You say that it "plays back flawlessly on computer ... and ... a couple different televisions;" okay, it's in sync; but how did it sound?

As for playback format, what do the festivals require?

 

[mckinise]

It doesn't matter one bit what you used to record the sound, all that matters is the mixing platform and, ultimately, the compatibility of the film/mix with the playback system.

Mixing 5.1 for theatrical playback really needs, at the very least, some semblance of a real mix facility. You say that it "plays back flawlessly on computer ... and ... a couple different televisions;" okay, it's in sync; but how did it sound?

As for playback format, what do the festivals require?

The festivals I am thinking want a DVD for entry, and one requires a blu-ray for playback. I will have to get more information from both of them.

As far as sound goes, I am happy with it. I am sure someone with more experience could do more with it, but I have been studying as much as possible to get it as close to professional as I can with my meager equipment and budget.

The dialog is very clear. I was able to remove a lot of the noise from it while keeping the sound strong. I did this for each track from dialog, to foley, to score. I then added slight room noise for each scene that wasn't scored. The sound fades out as the music begins, and fades in as it concludes. There is some overlap, but I figured it would take away from the sound if there were two competing tracks.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

If you've checked the sound on a couple of TVs, you've probably done as much as you can at this stage, as the festival are probably only going to be evaluating your DVD (or bluray) on a standard consumer TV or computer anyway. I would advise though to listen on a TV with the volume turned up higher than is comfortable and listen carefully for any problems at that higher level.

If you get accepted for screening, the game changes dramatically. If you can, post on this thread the festivals specs for the required exhibition copy and Alcove and I will try and give you some pointers. For the time being I would advise you to stay away from a 5.1 mix. 5.1 was always intended as a solely professional audio format and doesn't lend itself well to hobbyists or aspiring pros experimenting or playing with it, there are quite a few hidden potholes which almost seem deliberately designed to trip up the inexperienced, unwary and ill equipped!

G

 

[mckinise]

DCP if we make it to one of the majors. We are thinking Blu ray for the rest.

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

I would advise though to listen on a TV with the volume turned up higher than is comfortable and listen carefully for any problems at that higher level.

This is also where I find headphones to be useful - I actually like to run a pass with my etymotic earbuds, not for the actual mix but because they almost completely isolate what you're hearing and let you pick up on tiny details and noises you might not hear otherwise - but which show up a large theatrical sound system.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

DCP if we make it in the majors we are thinking. Blu ray for the rest.

OK. BluRay will take a stereo mix but you don't want to be using a stereo mix for screening in a cinema (this thread explains why). As DCP is purely a theatrical format it does not support stereo, 3.0 is the minimum audio mix supported by DCP but to be honest, if DCP is the exhibition format, the vast majority (if not all) of the films being screened will have a 5.1 mix. In other words, to compete on an equal footing with the other films in the competition you will need a 5.1 mix.

Creating a 5.1 mix for playback in a cinema is not going to be easy though. You can't use a consumer 5.1 system to create a mix for theatrical playback. Consumer 5.1 systems are very different to theatrical 5.1 systems, for starters they are bass managed rather than full range, so the frequency response is completely different as are the output levels and the signal timings/phase. Bare in mind that all sound comprises just three properties: Frequency, amplitude (level) and timing!Therefore, a consumer 5.1 system really has virtually nothing in common with a 5.1 theatrical system. In other words, a theatrical 5.1 mix will sound very different on a consumer 5.1 system and vice versa. That's why commercial theatrical films are re-mixed (re-versioned) for BluRay/DVD release and TV broadcast. There's no simple solution to this problem with little or no budget. The proper way to do it (for a feature length project) will cost anything from about $100k to several million dollars, depending on the genre, duration, etc. Paring it down to the bone, using every trick in the bargain basement book, even with a budget of $10k or so your chances of getting anywhere near minimum professional standards are slim to zero.

I know that no budget filmmakers will scoff at these kinds of figures for audio post as they are used to finding $50 solutions to $10k or $20k problems but you have to realise that for audio post, $10k to $20k IS the $50 solution!

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

This is also where I find headphones to be useful - I actually like to run a pass with my etymotic earbuds, not for the actual mix but because they almost completely isolate what you're hearing and let you pick up on tiny details and noises you might not hear otherwise - but which show up a large theatrical sound system.

For dialogue editing there is some merit to using earbuds or good headphones, although even for theatrical dialogue editing headphones (or earbuds) are still far from the best option. But for listening to a theatrical mix they are useless because they can only playback 2 channels of audio simultaneously.

G

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

Right, I'm specifically talking about using them to identify issues in things like dialogue, background noise, etc. And they may not be the best option, but I'm assuming we're talking about situations where someone doesn't have access to a proper audio mixing facility or studio monitoring system.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Right, I'm specifically talking about using them to identify issues in things like dialogue, background noise, etc. And they may not be the best option, but I'm assuming we're talking about situations where someone doesn't have access to a proper audio mixing facility or studio monitoring system.

Hmm, sort of. Without a proper mixing facility though it's going to be difficult to know what to do with any issues identified, such as background noise and of course you can only check certain things.

G

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

Sure, but that's the reality of what most of us here are working with.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Sure, but that's the reality of what most of us here are working with.

You can't just work blindly because that's all you've got to work with! For example, enytimotics tend to overhype the mid and high frequencies, so you might be tempted to reduce hiss/noise on some dialogue by applying a low pass filter, which will sound fine. But, at a film festival in a cinema which almost certainly has attenuated (reduced) HF response to start with, your original dialogue would already have sounded a little lifeless and your added LPF will hammer the nail into the coffin. It's more than likely that your cure is worse than the disease!

At what point is your monitoring so unrepresentative that you are effectively working blind and don't know whether your processing is making your mix better or worse? At or beyond that point is it even worth your time trying to fix problems you've identified? It's maybe time to spend a little money wisely and get someone who has the equipment to do the job properly or if you don't have any money, just leave it alone and move on to some other aspect of the film you can be more sure you're actually improving? At the very least, filmmakers need to be considering these issues rather than just continuing on blindly because that's all they have to work with.

G

 

[rayw]

Sound Advice: How to Ensure Your Audio Playback Comes Through Loud and Clear
http://www.documentary.org/magazine...r-audio-playback-comes-through-loud-and-clear

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

At what point is your monitoring so unrepresentative that you are effectively working blind and don't know whether your processing is making your mix better or worse? At or beyond that point is it even worth your time trying to fix problems you've identified? It's maybe time to spend a little money wisely and get someone who has the equipment to do the job properly or if you don't have any money, just leave it alone and move on to some other aspect of the film you can be more sure you're actually improving? At the very least, filmmakers need to be considering these issues rather than just continuing on blindly because that's all they have to work with.

Sure, it's something to consider. But personally I just can't go for the 'throw your hands in the air and give up because you don't have the perfect tools' approach. I use the etymotics, 7506, and decent but not studio quality desktop monitors to check my sound. I've learned how they differ from one another and use that to guide my decisions. I've also had the opportunity to hear quite a few of my projects in one of the best screening theaters in the country, as well as several different local movie theaters, and am fairly confident because of that that what I'm doing with my equipment is rarely making things worse than if I'd just left it alone. Is it perfect? No - and if perfect is necessary I'm going to hand everything over to someone who has the tools and skills necessary to approach that. But in the meantime I'm going to do the best I can with the tools I've got at hand.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

But personally I just can't go for the 'throw your hands in the air and give up because you don't have the perfect tools' approach.

I'm not talking about the perfect tools, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm not even talking about good tools, decent tools, mediocre tools or even fairly poor tools! I'm talking about tools which were never designed for and are completely inappropriate for what you are trying to use them for. For example if all you've got is an old 1960's black and white TV would you try to do the best you can with it to colour grade your 1080p film or would there simply no point? Sure there's a chance it might look good in the cinema when projected in colour but it's pretty unlikely, it's far more likely that your colour grading did more harm than good. But then I don't know much about colour grading so maybe it is possible to do it decently on an old B&W TV.

BTW, thanks for the link Ray. There are quite a few articles on sound or which include sound for indie filmmakers, frequently they are so inaccurate as to be worse than useless and appear to be "the blind leading the blind". This was NOT one of those articles! It was all good information which ties in very well with my experiences and I could not see a single factual inaccuracy. I think there are many here who should read that article, and understand it!

G

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

For example if all you've got is an old 1960's black and white TV would you try to do the best you can with it to colour grade your 1080p film or would there simply no point?

Sure, but that completely ignores what I said. Using your analogy I don't only have a B&W TV, I've got several different display devices of varying quality, I've compared them to one another and to theatrical projection, and through that process come to understand how each tool can be useful for the given task - rather than simply dismissing them out of hand as useless and giving up on any attempt to improve things.

I'm not talking about the perfect tools, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm not even talking about good tools, decent tools, mediocre tools or even fairly poor tools!

Just curious - where would you put the 7506's on your scale of perfect, good, decent, mediocre or fairly poor? Or are they 'completely inappropriate' for audio mixing for video?

 

[Alcove Audio]

Just curious - where would you put the 7506's on your scale of perfect, good, decent, mediocre or fairly poor? Or are they 'completely inappropriate' for audio mixing for video?

Unless your audience is listening on -7506's or something equivalent it's not going to be a good choice. You need at the very least a reasonable facsimile of the playback system that your audience will be using.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Just curious - where would you put the 7506's on your scale of perfect, good, decent, mediocre or fairly poor? Or are they 'completely inappropriate' for audio mixing for video?

The equipment you've mentioned, the entymotics and the desktop monitors, both of them are completely inappropriate! Hence my analogy of using the B&W TV for colour correction.

As I said in my post #7: All humanly audible sound has just three properties; Frequency, amplitude (level) and phase (timing). In many respects, the entymotics while relatively flat (certainly compared to your monitors), have an entirely different frequency response to a cinema system, headphones or earbuds cannot be calibrated for level (amplitude) and as for timing!: How much more different can you get than the sound being produced about quarter of an inch from your eardrum and say 50ft or more away from your eardrum? In some respects (but not quite all), of all the different types of equipment on this planet designed to reproduce audio you could not find something more inappropriate! Your desktop monitors are marginally less inappropriate in some respects to your earbuds but more inappropriate in others, overall though, still totally inappropriate. I'm not talking about "perfect" here, I'm talking about the diametrically opposite end of the spectrum to perfect!

G

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

The equipment you've mentioned, the entymotics and the desktop monitors, both of them are completely inappropriate! Hence my analogy of using the B&W TV for colour correction.

As I said in my post #7: All humanly audible sound has just three properties; Frequency, amplitude (level) and phase (timing).

And color is simply hue, saturation and brightness. With your 60's B&W tv I can't do much work in color correction to judge the hue or saturation, but I can use it to adjust the brightness. I can feed a test signal into it to determine how it renders brightness, or play a commercial film on it to see how it renders a properly corrected piece, then use that knowledge to judge which brightness adjustments to make to my own video and what to ignore. I can go shot to shot and adjust the brightness to create a consistent level of contrast, exposure and tone throughout the piece. It's certainly not ideal, and the finished result may not be great but it'll be better than if I'd just given up because I didn't have the ideal tools - because it will be more consistent from shot to shot, and I've found through experience that inconsistency is more distracting to audiences than imperfection.

So no, I'm not going to try to use earbuds to judge timing. But I can use them to judge relative levels of background hiss between two lines of dialogue and hear if there's a step in that noise between them, and decide whether they're close enough to simply smooth the step with a crossfade or whether I need to apply noise reduction to one or both clips. And that's exactly the kind of thing that will be audible in a quiet theater with a good sound system and will be distracting to an audience - so if I can eliminate it using the tools I've got the end result is a better experience for the audience. Personally I've found the etymotics work better for that than the 7506 or desktop monitors because I'm not in a studio and they almost completely eliminate outside noise.

I'm not talking about "perfect" here, I'm talking about the diametrically opposite end of the spectrum to perfect!

And to me the opposite end of that spectrum is simply not trying. I know from experience that I can improve the audience's experience of my audio with the tools I've got, even when those tools are less than ideal for the job.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

So no, I'm not going to try to use earbuds to judge timing. But I can use them to judge relative levels of background hiss between two lines of dialogue and hear if there's a step in that noise between them, and decide whether they're close enough to simply smooth the step with a crossfade or whether I need to apply noise reduction to one or both clips.

You're convinced you can do a decent job like this, I'm convinced you can't.

I know from experience that I can improve the audience's experience of my audio with the tools I've got, even when those tools are less than ideal for the job.

You're talking about less than ideal tools for the job, I'm talking about tools which could hardly be any worse. That's a pretty big difference! I can only imagine we also have a pretty big difference between what we consider to be barely acceptable quality audio.

G