Recording dialogue around a campfire.

[harmonica44]

I was asked to take over audio, since the director has not been able to record around a fire, without getting too much noise from the fire. I was wondering how could I do this, without possibly getting the mic and boom too close, as I do not want to overheat it, or anything of that sort.

I was thinking I could get ask the director to use his long lens, and make the actors look like they are closer to the fire than they are. And then I could get the boom mic, further away from the fire, but would this work? He says he is up for it, but I don't know if he will do practice shots before the shoot, so I want to be able to have the right solution before shooting if I can.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

Couldn't you just use a more directional mic and do it in pieces? Like, move the boom so it's facing whoever is talking, thus away from the fire, and cut to a different angle every couple lines.

 

[harmonica44]

I could ask him but I want to give the director freedom over his shots, and so far he likes doing scenes with out cutting. He likes moving the camera from person to person, and have them do it all in one go. It's just his artistic choice, and I already feel like I am compromising it by asking him to do long lens shots of people. I'll ask him but what if he says he doesn't want to shoot it that way, style choice wise?

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

I could ask him but I want to give the director freedom over his shots, and so far he likes doing scenes with out cutting. He likes moving the camera from person to person, and have them do it all in one go. It's just his artistic choice, and I already feel like I am compromising it by asking him to do long lens shots of people. I'll ask him but what if he says he doesn't want to shoot it that way, style choice wise?

That's difficult, but I respect that you respect his artistic decision to shoot like that - Scenes like that can look very nice if done right and the actors hold their own for long shots.

It's tough, though, because it may be difficult to put a boom over the area and cover all the actors, let alone the amount of fire-noise you'll get if you did that. Do you have access to multiple microphones? That's the only way I could think of to handle it... Since it's nighttime, you could probably hide them quite effectively in the shot.

Or... have the people sit on 2/3 of the side of the fire, side by side rather than across it. Then you can mic relatively in one direction.

 

[harmonica44]

I only have two mics right now, one shotgun and one hyper. I probably should use only the shotgun, so the audio sounds the same throughout the scene.

I think he would do individual close ups as additional coverage if I tell him the situation probably. I have boomed for him a couple of times now, and I had to move from actor to actor without many close ups in the end. He chooses the close up, if it's called for, which isn't a lot for him.

 

[Sweetie]

Options:
A). Use an artificial light source. Don't use a real fire. Real fires make noise.
B). ADR.
C). Put up with unclean audio and increase the signal to noise ratio as much as you can, note it on your logs and let post audio figure it out.

Your job is to give the powers that be the options, let them know the consequences of each option and let them make the decision. Your job is to capture the best audio under the circumstances given to you.

 

[Alcove Audio]

There's something brand new which I'm sure that you've never heard of, but may be of great interest to you. They are called lavaliere microphones ("lavs" for short). They can be hidden on the actors under a shirt, in a bra (how scandalous!), in a hat, in the hair and lots of other places. There's another brand new miracle of modern technology called wireless; you plug the lavaliere microphone to a battery powered transmitter that is hidden on the actor, and there is a receiver that you plug into your audio recorder so you can actually record what is being said by the actors without having to use a microphone on the end of a boom-pole!!!

There are also very super-special, highly classified, top secret methods used by the most elite of the filmmaking industry (but I'm going to break silence just for you and spend the rest of my life dodging entertainment media assassins), such as cheating angles, booming from the sides or underneath just out of camera range, and after the scene is shot you can have the actors say their lines into your microphone after the scene has been shot; this is a process known as dialog wilds. You can even - OH MY GOD! - consider dialog editing (using the dialog from 2-shots and close ups) and even (such radical heresy!) Automated Dialog Replacement (ADR)!!!!!!!!!




The director is going to have to choose a compromise between his artistic vision and his budget (extensive audio post versus clean production sound). Since he has dumped the production sound on your shoulders it is your obligation to educate him regarding the ins and outs of production sound versus audio post - or, preferably, point him in the direction of someone who has knowledge and experience, since you haven't retained even 2% of what we have discussed about production sound and post audio over the last three years.


No matter what you do, a real fire is noisy; even lavs will pick up a lot, depending upon the size of the fire. An option that should be pointed out is artificial lighting for the scene and a CGI campfire as an alternative to DX editing and/or ADR.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

since you haven't retained even 2% of what we have discussed about production sound and post audio over the last three years.

I always appreciate your expertise on the site Alcove, but you can suggest to him lav mics without being quite as aggressive or condescending about it. We're all here learning, sometimes we need to ask simple questions to troubleshoot. I didn't suggest lavs, because I assumed he likely would have already resorted to them if he had them - I think it would be fairly expensive to purchase lavs if the production hadn't already allocated money towards it.


Potentially using a synthesized fire is a good idea, though, Harmonica. Fires are incredibly loud. If you wanted, you probably wouldn't even have to show a fire - just get the right lighting flickering across their faces and cut a bit closer in.

 

[harmonica44]

Yes I do not have lavs. Just the two condenser mics I mentioned. I will suggest not to show the fire, and just light it so it looks like one. Although the director who is doing the shooting himself, is really not a good lighter. But I will tell him his options.

As for dialogue wilds, almost every time I have recorded them so far, they do not match. The lines were either said a little differently, or the emotion does not match the actor's face. Dialog wilds are not the best solution in my experience, especially when the actor likes to do things in one take. I will tell him to show a lot of reaction shots, rather than to keep his camera on the actors speaking, when he does his all in one take shot.

I will also suggest close up coverage shots. Perhaps the fire should only be seen in a master, so the audience knows it's a fire. then we put it out, and light accordingly for the close ups.

I will tell him that. If he cannot make it look like a convincing fire through lighting, then dialog wilds will be best.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I always appreciate your expertise on the site Alcove, but you can suggest to him lav mics without being quite as aggressive or condescending about it.

We've been over these types of situations with H44 dozens of times already; I've been very patient, but it gets very frustrating after a while. Instead of thinking it through on his own he always wants someone else to solve his problems for him, and that doesn't work when you have to think & act fast on a set or on a tight deadline in audio post. Maybe a slap in the face and a kick in the ass will help it sink in this time.


Hey, I was a beginner too. But when I asked those who were more experienced than myself I would write about the options I've already considered, and then I would ask if there were more options of which I was not aware.

I think it would be fairly expensive to purchase lavs if the production hadn't already allocated money towards it.

But you can always rent, and we've been over that too.

I've also suggested that he participate on Jeff Wexlers site (a site for production sound professionals), people who know far more than I do, but he never posts over there.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

I see where you're coming from, just thought I'd try to diffuse some of the tension/fumes of the thread.

You've got a point - renting lavs for an evening is probably their best bet if the director is insisting on shooting it in a specific style with a real fire.

 

[harmonica44]

I will go to Jeff's website. As far as renting, yes we have been over that, and I said before that there is no rental store that will do that here, accept one, but you are put on a waiting list, and most directors want to get shooting and do not postpone projects for that.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I will go to Jeff's website. As far as renting, yes we have been over that, and I said before that there is no rental store that will do that here, accept

you mean EXCEPT

one, but you are put on a waiting list, and most directors want to get shooting and do not postpone projects for that.

As I have also mentioned quite frequently, Trew Audio will deliver anywhere in North America. They're in Toronto and Vancouver as well as Nashville and LA. Very professional, very well stocked, competitive prices.

http://www.trewaudio.com/

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

you mean EXCEPT

As I have also mentioned quite frequently, Trew Audio will deliver anywhere in North America. They're in Toronto and Vancouver as well as Nashville and LA. Very professional, very well stocked, competitive prices.

http://www.trewaudio.com/

Are you sure you don't mean that they deliver purchases to anywhere? Their rentals seem to be restricted to the four major cities they're stationed on. I'm not sure if they could do too much for H44 - because that would just send him down the route of purchasing equipment, in which case, Amazon, eBay, B&H, and places like that may be even better bets.

 

[Beatlesfan1225]

most directors want to get shooting and do not postpone projects for that.

In all honesty, this quote struck me as odd. If you don't want to postpone your projects to get good sound, what kind of director are you? More so, it shouldn't even be an issue of postponing, because a good director would work with his producer and pre-production team to work these logistics out before they even begin shooting.

 

[Alcove Audio]

From the rental terms and conditions:

Shipping Costs​

The renter is liable for all shipping and shipping insurance costs. Further, the renter is liable for the equipment while in transit. It is preferable that the customer provides a shipping account number through a major carrier for shipping and shipping insurance costs. If this is not available, Trew Audio Canada will bill shipping costs and shipping insurance charges to the customer. While a reasonable attempt may be made to estimate these shipping charges ahead of time, actual charges may vary and will remain the responsibility of the renter.

So yes, they ship rentals. As far as I know, they are the only major rental house to do so. Yeah, when you add it all up it gets a bit pricey, but buying three or four Sennheiser or Lectro wireless systems is a hell of a lot more expensive than renting for a week.

Sennheiser G3 System w/ Sanken COS-11 lav

To rent: CA $160/wk + shipping
To buy: US $1,100

Lectro 400 W/ Sanken COS-11 lav

To rent: CA $300/wk + shipping
To buy: US $3,050

 

[Alcove Audio]

H44 could also talk about the set "design."

I once did a wide shot with four people sitting on the floor around a coffee table, one actor on each end and two on the long side. We didn't have the budget to rent lavs, so I laid on my back partly under the coffee table and used a hypercardioid on a pistol grip. I got hot and uncomfortable. They put various props on the camera side of the coffee table on and in front of the coffee table to hide me. Depending on the angle I could only get two or very rarely three actors at a time. We ended up piecing the dialog together using alternate takes from close-ups, 2-shots, medium shots and dialog wilds; that's what dialog editing is for.

They could put a few logs, backpacks, etc. between the camera and the actors and H44 could lay on the ground with pistol grip - the mic would be facing away from the fire, so the fire noise would be a bit less.

It's never perfect, you have to get creative and make compromises - ya gotta do whacha gotta do. H44 cannot seem to think outside the box or compromise on his rigid rules.

 

[AcousticAl]

There are a couple other options:

First, wide shots with the fire burning, over which wilds or alternate takes can be used; then, close-ups with artificial lighting and no fire to solve the noise issue.

Second: FAKE CAMPFIRE. I have seen this used many times, and it takes away the crackles, pops, and roar of the fire. Fake logs, a hidden gas line run to the fire pit, and a tank located off-camera. It's quiet, it's real fire, and you don't have to worry about continuity with the logs or the size of the fire over an extended shoot.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

C). Put up with unclean audio and increase the signal to noise ratio as much as you can, note it on your logs and let post audio figure it out.

Yeh, thanks for handing out that advice. BTW, do you have a mailing address? I'd like to send you a surprise "gift"!

Seriously though, this advice is fraught with danger. Sometimes I'm given dialogue which the director/editor tells me is going to need ADR, I clean it up nicely and they think I'm a miracle worker. Other times I'm given dialogue which doesn't appear (to the director/editor) to be too bad but there's simply nothing (or rather not enough) which can be done to make it usable. Although not the norm, I have had many situations where the noisier take is actually the one which cleans up the best. In other words, the cleanest dialogue does not always equate to the best (or most usable) dialogue. A good, experienced, professional PSM will have a pretty good idea of what is easy/possible/difficult/impossible in post and will record the production sound accordingly or advise the director accordingly. The obviously problem is that no-budget indies can't afford a good, experienced, pro PSM. In which case, this option is very risky advice, even more so as no-budget indies generally can't afford good, well equipped audio-post professionals either!

In this particular case, and as a general rule, fire is usually very tricky or impossible to adequately deal with in post. Fire isn't a noise but an irregular collection of noises; crackles, pops, hisses, wheezes, roars, etc. Dealing with any one of these might not be too problematic but dealing with several, or all, of them occurring simultaneously will be.

It should go without saying that if one of Alcove's (or some other) creative solutions are attempted to try and get usable production dialogue (as opposed to getting guide dialogue for ADR use) then at least several takes (and then an additional safety take!), plus one or more complete sets of dialogue wilds, as well as several minutes of recordings of the fire itself, will dramatically increase the audio-post editing options and therefore the chances of the production sound ultimately being usable.

G

 

[harmonica44]

In all honesty, this quote struck me as odd. If you don't want to postpone your projects to get good sound, what kind of director are you? More so, it shouldn't even be an issue of postponing, because a good director would work with his producer and pre-production team to work these logistics out before they even begin shooting.

I am not directing this, someone else is, I am just working for her. If it were me directing I would have come up with my own solution and had time to plan it out.

And thanks for the advice. She doesn't have the budget to rent lavs, express from Vancouver. But I will tell her all the other options and we will get lots of takes and wild dialog, away from the fire. I cannot figure out how to do the fake fire in time unfortunately. Thanks.