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That entire email exchanged was fabricated. Even though my dialogue was pinged as "poor" ...I can sniff out a completely contrived email exchange.

-Birdman
 
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Regardless of whether this particular exchange is entirely real or not, it's still completely relevant. The moral of the story is that if you ask for feedback, you might get feedback you don't like. Deal with it. Don't argue about people's opinions; everybody is entitled to them. Asume they're right, especially if they're a potential customer. The customer is always right.

Oh... And always do your best to remain friendly with those who might determine the next steps you take in life!
 
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Inarius said:
Birdman, why would someone fabricate the email exchange? For what?
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...because they have a pre-determined agenda and they cant find a real-life example to fulfill their agenda.



mad_hatter said:
Regardless of whether this particular exchange is entirely real or not, it's still completely relevant. The moral of the story is that if you ask for feedback, you might get feedback you don't like. Deal with it. Don't argue about people's opinions; everybody is entitled to them. Asume they're right, especially if they're a potential customer. The customer is always right.

Oh... And always do your best to remain friendly with those who might determine the next steps you take in life!
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...I don't see someone reacting the way the person did in this "supposed" email exchange. When you're trying to get your foot in the door, it's THEIR DOOR you're sticking your foot in. However, if you're PAYING someone for feedback, the person/company providing the feedback is working for YOU.

If I send my script in to a production studio with the hopes that they will like it enough to maybe buy/option it, I am at their mercy. If they don't want it, ...it's on to the next. If I pay someone for constructive feedback and their feedback is not inline with what my script is all about ...then we have a problem.

If you wrote "Back to the Future" and a PAID ANALYST tells you, "using a Delorean is a bad idea", ..."Doc is a scientist. Scientists are smart people. He would be better prepared than how you have him written" ..."lose the 88 miles per hour thing because that's not how time travel works" and "You should study the Terminator series for a better understanding of time travel" ...you'd probably have a problem with the advice.

BTW: What I was hoping for the MOST was isolating my good points and bad points on whatever subject was being analyzed.

If I have areas with bad dialogue ...show me where I had good dialogue

If I have bad action scenes ...show me where I had a good action scene.

If I have bad descriptive text ...show me where I had some good descriptive text.

....Having a review on the first 33 pages that says, "This is bad" and a link to their website for me to study is not the feedback I was looking for. I wanted to see where my best work was so I can use that as a guide for my other parts that need work.

-Birdman
 
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Great advice from mad_hatter above.

I would say that exchange could be 100% legitimate.

When you invest hundreds (for some, thousands) of hours in a screenplay, some writers find criticism/advice exceptionally difficult to deal with. Some simply will not accept it, and continue to believe that their screenplay is exceptional and the next tent pole movie.

Personally, my first script got hammered by a professional reviewer. It hurt but I took it onboard and learnt from it. Looking back (some 6+ years later), I now know that my first script was actually no where near as good as I thought it was. My writing is exponentially better for that advice now but back then it was a very tough lesson.

The best pro screenwriters are paid mid/high six figures and even seven figures for a script for a reason. Writing at that level takes a huge amount of skill, knowledge and experience. The majority of non-pro screenwriters somehow expect to reach that level in their first screenplay (I know I expected lots of commercial interest in my first script) - it's simply not possible for 99.999% of cases. That level of skill typically takes years to develop. When you tell a writer this via their feedback (i.e. point out the areas that need improving etc), some take it very badly. That email exchange is likely legitimate.
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Inarius said:
Birdman, why would someone fabricate the email exchange? For what?
Click to expand...

FYI: If you read the bottoms of each email, you'll notice that the Director uses "Kind Regards" and the Exec does the same. Later the Director changes his sign-off to "Best" ...and amazingly the Exec does the same. "Best of luck" is used frequently by both parties.

That's because they were all written by the same person who didn't take the time to work out all the bugs.

People have a certain way they sign off in emails and letters. It's too coincidental that both parties have the exact same sign-off and also switch their sign-off at the same time.

-Birdman
 
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Birdman said:
...because they have a pre-determined agenda and they cant find a real-life example to fulfill their agenda.
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I'm sure this is an exaggeration. Why would they have that agenda? Why? You know what is producer vs. newbie screenwriter? It's an elephant against a bug. Elephants don't need to go that far to kill a bug.
 
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In my experience this kind of exchange is typical – if the exec lets
it get that far. Usually after the first “none of them jumped out at
them sufficiently to want to take things forward” email there would
be no further contact. Making the assumption that the exec and
the writer had met in a social setting or the writer is a referral then
the second attempt is likely to have happened.

And as Chris pointed out, this is exactly why producers shy away from
direct contact with writers. Perhaps this exchange was entirely
fabricated – it was fabricated using many years of experience and
(likely) a few thousand very typical exchanges.

It astounds me how so many writers and directors and writer/directors
and writer/director/actors will sabotage a potential personal contact
with exactly this type of attitude. The desire to “win” so many times
outweighs common sense. I've seen it with my agent; I've seen if with
producers I have covered for. Not rarely but often. It's self destructive.
I suppose the writer then tells his friends how he “told him!” and when
he makes it and the producer comes begging him to work together the
producer will learn his lesson.

If I were a betting man I would bet that email exchange is totally legit.
 
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"Hi XXXXX,

We’ve now reviewed the script, and I’m afraid that it didn’t deliver to the level you had promised and, in fact, both my head of development and I found it pretty derivative and not fully convincing.

It’s a pass for us on this basis, but best of luck in placing it elsewhere.

Best

XXXX
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In REAL life, the Executive would not have responded in his second email the way that he did. And if there was an actual script review (and a subsequent third response) he would have probably written back something like this:


Dear XXXXX,

We have reviewed your script. Nice work! It is very well constructed and you demonstrate a great deal of talent as a Screenplay author. As stated before, we have many projects that we must complete and we are already behind schedule. We will definitely keep your contact information of file for future reference.


Sincerely,
Mr. Executive
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...In real life, there would be no more responses from the Executive after that no matter what the Director wrote.



-Birdman
 
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I've had conversations that could have gone like this if it were done on email. Had the occasional one go like that on the phone too.

As IndiePaul said, when you invest hundreds of hours only to be dismissed is heartbreaking. Something that makes writers good is conflict. I can only assume it can leak into real life.

Sometimes you're too close to the material. One thing that writers don't always understand, particular producers are looking for what's right for them. It doesn't always mean the material is bad, it's sometimes just not a good fit for them.
 
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Birdman said:
...because they have a pre-determined agenda and they cant find a real-life example to fulfill their agenda.
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You have no proof that that's what happened, and I have nothing to prove you wrong. But I can tell you that there are examples of people being rude, snide, or aggressive with people that have significantly more power and influence.
 
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in a Batman meets Titanic sort of way
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I'm sold! :lol:

That was a hilarious read. I know a few authors just like that. Secret Agent Man has some solid gold stories about actors, too. :abduct:

Oh lordy. Just realised I'm in the Screenwriting forum by mistake. Gotta vamoose. Script writers are crazy. :seeya:
 
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Birdman said:
...if you're PAYING someone for feedback, the person/company providing the feedback is working for YOU.
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Which is a completely separate issue altogether.


Birdman said:
In REAL life....

Dear XXXXX,

We have reviewed your script. Nice work! It is very well constructed and you demonstrate a great deal of talent as a Screenplay author. As stated before, we have many projects that we must complete and we are already behind schedule. We will definitely keep your contact information of file for future reference.


Sincerely,
Mr. Executive
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


So, you believe the executive would lie to the writer? Why would the executive do that? Why say "Nice Work", when he actually thinks it's "derivative and not fully convincing"? Why say "It is very well constructed and you demonstrate a great deal of talent as a Screenplay author" when they actually think "it didn’t deliver to the level you had promised"?

In this example, real or fictional, this is a studio exec./producer telling a prospective screenwriter that their work isn't good enough. It's not the job of the producer to offer feedback of any kind. The producer should have just said "No".
 
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ChimpPhobiaFilms said:
You have no proof that that's what happened, and I have nothing to prove you wrong. But I can tell you that there are examples of people being rude, snide, or aggressive with people that have significantly more power and influence.
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Actually, I DO have proof .....and I already posted it.

This is just like those deeply warm email chain-letter stories that get tossed into everyone's inbpx about how some amazing miracle happened to someone. And there's always a moral listed at the end. Then they tell you to pass it onto a friend. Completely contrived.

The person who wrote this email exchange is a "writer". He used his dialogue talents to fabricate this exchange just like someone would do in a screenplay. I find it humorous, though, that I picked this off after the third email... yet I'm the one who gets pinged for bad dialogue.

In real life the Executive would have been considerate, tossed out a few accolades and moved on. After all, he's busy with all the work they already have going. The reason the writer made all of this up was to help illustrate the point that he wanted to make.

-Birdman
 
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mad_hatter said:
So, you believe the executive would lie to the writer? Why would the executive do that? Why say "Nice Work", when he actually thinks it's "derivative and not fully convincing"? Why say "It is very well constructed and you demonstrate a great deal of talent as a Screenplay author" when they actually think "it didn’t deliver to the level you had promised"?

In this example, real or fictional, this is a studio exec./producer telling a prospective screenwriter that their work isn't good enough. It's not the job of the producer to offer feedback of any kind. The producer should have just said "No".
Click to expand...

The "Director" person wrote this in his opening email:

I am a produced and optioned writer.
I have 3 ready to go, high concept, highly marketable scripts.
I am a writer, director; actor and producer who wants to mainly concentrate on writing only at this time.
I have made several short films, including best short XXXXXXX at the XXXXX film festival.
I have written, produced and directed low budget flick ‘XXXXXXXXX’

Based on that, the guy probably has a grip on how to write a good, well-constructed screenplay. The Executive isn't a liar. The Executive told the truth. He pointed out some good qualities about the writer, offered some encouragement ...and then moved on.


-Birdman
 
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Birdman said:
Actually, I DO have proof .....and I already posted it.
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Where? I don’t see any “proof”, just an opinion or an assumption, based on people’s e-mail sign-off’s. For the record, I use “Kind regards” and “Best regards” interchangeably.


Birdman said:
In real life the Executive would have been considerate, tossed out a few accolades and moved on.
Click to expand...

Would he? And you know this how?


Birdman said:
The "Director" person wrote this in his opening email:

I am a produced and optioned writer.
I have 3 ready to go, high concept, highly marketable scripts.
I am a writer, director; actor and producer who wants to mainly concentrate on writing only at this time.
I have made several short films, including best short XXXXXXX at the XXXXX film festival.
I have written, produced and directed low budget flick ‘XXXXXXXXX’
Click to expand...

And what he could have meant was:

I am a produced and optioned writer of a short film, produced by my fifteen year old sister.
I have 3 ready to go, high concept, highly marketable scripts, even if I do say so myself.
I am a writer, director; actor and producer who wants to mainly concentrate on writing only at this time, despite the fact that I may or may not be very good at it.
I have made several short films, including best short winner at the Cheesestrings Underground film festival, which had a very poor attendance and was judged by two blind monkeys.
I have written, produced and directed low budget flick ‘XXXXXXXXX’, which, as you can see on Rotten Tomatoes, has a current rating of 19%.

And from this you are making assumptions, believing, based on a person’s own personal opinion of himself, that they are a good writer.

Regardless of whether this is a work of fiction or not, we know that, in this instance, the producer didn’t like the script. You’re suggesting he should tell the writer that it’s “good work” anyway. What benefit does that offer to anybody?
 
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Hatter,

You (and several others) are free to believe whatever you want to. The reason many want to believe this was a true email exchange is for the following reasons:

(1). The exchange matches up with a personal view that you have regarding this industry. You WANT this to be true!

(2). You consider yourselves to be sharp, savvy writers (which many of you are) and the idea that another writer has pulled a fast one on you cuts at the very fabric of your scriptwriting soul.

(3). Whenever someone gets caught being an asshole or doing something stupid, (as the Director is depicted) EVERYONE loves to pile on the idiot in question. That's human nature. It places a greater amount of distance between you and whatever the stupid person did. It allows you to say to yourself and others, "This guy's an idiot ...and I know better than to behave like he did." This clouds one's judgment on whether or not what they are reading is really true or not.

When you read something posted on the internet like this you have to strip away all emotion, all human tendencies, all pre-conceived notions about what you are reading.

The TRUTH is, like it or not, is there are too many similarities between the Director and the Executive's writing style with regard to sentence structure, use of commas, sign-offs, and the lack of business acumen demonstrated by both parties. There was far too much coincidental similarities for it to be a true exchange between two completely different individuals.

Police detectives are experts at determining if what they are reading or hearing is bullshit based on some of the items I listed above. As writers we are charged with creating two totally different characters and make them sound believable. Many times we get pinged for having two characters sound too much like the same character. That is a common rookie mistake.

I had two characters in my screenplay say "as one might say" in the middle of their dialogue. Even though this is a common phrase, it still points towards the characters sounding too similar ... So I changed it. BTW: my Analyst made no mention of this.

The IRONY of all of this is that the "Director" believes that he is correct and the "Executive" is pointing out the truth of the situation. The Director doesn't believe what the Executive is saying because he wants/needs for himselft to be the one who's right. The whole purpose of the writer fabricating the email exchange was to illustrate how people sometimes don't want to listen to any criticism. They look away from reality because reality is just too damned hard to face .

This is amazingly just like this thread. You can look and see exactly what I've pointed out ... But you don't want to accept the reality of it.

-Birdman
 
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