Question about film-schools and is it worth it

[kenyappers]

Hello. First and foremost I'd like to apologize as this would be a long post, and also if there are any (which most probably be plenty) grammatical errors, sorry!

That aside, I'm a 20 year old student from the country of Malaysia who is currently studying my first-year degree in International Trade and Marketing in a local private university. Getting right into it, I'm very keen on switching my course into film-making (in a film school) as I'm really passionate and keen on working things creatively and I'd love to learn more about film-making/cinematography/videography. Though I have to admit that I have no background of working with any heavy projects in terms of filming/post-production. In fact, I've only played around with Premiere Pro no more than 10 times editing minor videos for any school work that required me filming a video presentation. Truth be told, I think it's just the passion that's really driving me, I hate to see myself continuing my studies in a business degree knowing all the time I find absolutely no joy in studying. Now, being your typical asian parents, they weren't so receptive to the idea of me switching courses to one such as 'film-making' as they could pretty much tell that it's not something that could 'support my future' and it was a tad bit risky (seeing circumstances in our local film industry). But I reassured them that creative work is much more (maybe?) appreciated in the western countries and that if I made connections during my studying it would benefit me more in the future. Even after saying that, I wasn't very sure if that was even true. On top of that, I even asked if I could perhaps even study in a film-school in the States. But as a Malaysian, it would be costly for me to even live there, let alone study.

With all that being said, I have some questions that I would love it if it could be answered in this forum, which are:

1. Is a studying in a film school abroad worth it?

2. Is creative work such as film-making/cinematography/videography really much more recognized and appreciated in the Western countries?

3. If so, are there any College/Universities you'd recommend worth checking out?

Additional question: Am I actually too old to start learning basics? (Age 20)

Thank you for your time!

 

[SkyCopeland]

Hello. First and foremost I'd like to apologize as this would be a long post, and also if there are any (which most probably be plenty) grammatical errors, sorry!

That aside, I'm a 20 year old student from the country of Malaysia who is currently studying my first-year degree in International Trade and Marketing in a local private university. Getting right into it, I'm very keen on switching my course into film-making (in a film school) as I'm really passionate and keen on working things creatively and I'd love to learn more about film-making/cinematography/videography. Though I have to admit that I have no background of working with any heavy projects in terms of filming/post-production. In fact, I've only played around with Premiere Pro no more than 10 times editing minor videos for any school work that required me filming a video presentation. Truth be told, I think it's just the passion that's really driving me, I hate to see myself continuing my studies in a business degree knowing all the time I find absolutely no joy in studying. Now, being your typical asian parents, they weren't so receptive to the idea of me switching courses to one such as 'film-making' as they could pretty much tell that it's not something that could 'support my future' and it was a tad bit risky (seeing circumstances in our local film industry). But I reassured them that creative work is much more (maybe?) appreciated in the western countries and that if I made connections during my studying it would benefit me more in the future. Even after saying that, I wasn't very sure if that was even true. On top of that, I even asked if I could perhaps even study in a film-school in the States. But as a Malaysian, it would be costly for me to even live there, let alone study.

Thank you for your time!

So much was said... how to approach... let's go step by step with your tl;dr questions you provided.

1. Is a studying in a film school abroad worth it?

You'll only get out of film school what you put into it. No film school is going to make you a good filmmaker. Like any educational resource, it is a tool that you must leverage.

2. Is creative work such as film-making/cinematography/videography really much more recognized and appreciated in the Western countries?

Everyone except the crew of Need for Speed would say Yes to that question. (that's a joke because Need for Speed only did good in China, and is now a US/China Co-Production for the sequel, but yea Hollywood is a huge apart of America.)

3. If so, are there any College/Universities you'd recommend worth checking out?

No one can really recommend to you is the best film school... because no one has attended them all. However there are a number of us here that have been to film school or are currently attending. Myself included.

So I guess I'll throw my school into that hate? Full Sail University is a great school with very talented teachers. The drawback is that it's a ruthless school on your health, you will barely sleep and lose any chance at a social life. As well there is a high amount of stress involved as you can fuck up one thing on your practical exams and fail the class. Overall though, good school. HAS ONE OF THE HIGHEST TUITIONS FOR FILM SCHOOLS.

Additional question: Am I actually too old to start learning basics? (Age 20)

Dude, you're 20. Yes, that's more than 1/4 your average life span, but consider this; Barely anyone begins seriously learning to filmmaking until at LEAST 18 years old. One of my classmates is like 50 or 60, but damn he's dedicated as hell and I have no doubt he can get a job in the industry.

 

[jrusso]

You'll only get out of film school what you put into it. No film school is going to make you a good filmmaker. Like any educational resource, it is a tool that you must leveraged.

Correct.

 

[jrusso]

1. Is a studying in a film school abroad worth it?

There's alot of information on the internet nowadays which will save you a shit ton of money going to film school.

Check out Dov S. Simen's 2 day film school. He has a good deal of it on youtube. You don't have to waste over $30,000 on film school if you don't want to. In fact, the majority of crew/directors/producers have NEVER gone to film school.

Checkout an example of Dov S. Simens school on YouTube. You need nothing more.

https://youtu.be/zbM8KWZ7BVs

 

[SkyCopeland]

There's alot of information on the internet nowadays which will save you a shit ton of money going to film school.

Check out Dov S. Simen's 2 day film school. He has a good deal of it on youtube. You don't have to waste over $30,000 on film school if you don't want to. In fact, the majority of crew/directors/producers have NEVER gone to film school.

Checkout an example of Dov S. Simens school on YouTube. You need nothing more.

https://youtu.be/zbM8KWZ7BVs

I understand you now. You watched an infomercial and eat every disgusting word.

Hey my final project teacher is a graduate of the DGA Training Program, guess what? He has never directed a feature film. He's very open about what he did on the program. Worked on a bunch of television shows? Yea. Directed an episode? No, DGA Training Program puts you as a PA specifically assigned to the AD and 2nd AD.

Is he at least successful? Yea. He is. That's at least true. He's worked on a few of Marvel as 2nd Assistant Director.

No your no budget film will not enter a film festival and find distribution... it might, low chance, get someone to have faith in your next project making a profit though.

Can you join the DGA? No. Sorry, but it's a very hard to get into guild... You can look up the very difficult requirements if you'd like, I don't keep them in my head because the thought of joining is well beyond me. (More of an IATSE person)

This isn't even a good looking infomercial... I now understand why you didn't learn the 30 Degree Rule, you were taught film by a get-rich-quick con man.

 

[film_autre]

no its not worth it, use the money to make a couple of shorts, you'll learn more from that than you will film school.

 

[WhiteOpus]

the only real benefits of going to film school would be having complex tech questions about specific gear answered by experienced instructors, getting hooked up with like-minded people who will work on your films for free, the chance to work on other students' films (for free), and possibly a better understanding of the legal side of filmmaking.

i suppose the biggest question you have to ask yourself is, "Am I confident that I can earn back that $30,000 (and more) by making films?"

 

[Sweetie]

get out of film school what you put into it

There are two schools of thought. One for Film School and one for the School of Hard Knocks. Which is right? In my opinion, that depends on you. Both options are right, both are wrong. Neither is perfect.

For the OP, this is true. Unfortunately this is also the reason that film school may be and may not be right for you. It really comes down to how you learn the best. Film school does many things right and many things wrong.

The biggest crutch to film school is you get what you put into it. A lot of that is on you. The benefits is it puts you in an environment of like minded people... mostly. what if you get teamed with idiots who are in love with the idea of being a film maker, but don't share your same passion? That's wasted time, but that can happen in real life too.

Since it's up to you to get the most out of film school, the real question is, would you be able to create the same opportunities on your own outside film school?

If your answer is yes, then skip film school. If your answer is no, film school may be for you.

Checkout an example of Dov S. Simens school on YouTube. You need nothing more.

You watched an infomercial and eat every disgusting word.

That's about as insulting as someone saying, "So you bought into the Full Sail BS, hook, line and sinker". have you gone through Dov S. Simens material? While I don't agree with everything he says, listen to what he says, ignore what doesn't make sense to you and absorb and apply the rest.

I think it's disgusting that film schools pump out heaps of useless film makers who have no hope of a career every year.

While Dov is firmly in the B grade bracket, his views do offer a real world, though perhaps need some updating, alternative. He does focus on producing. I believe that only a fool takes one point of view as gospel. As with film school, having multiple teachers gets the best effect as you form your skill set. Relying on Dov as your only source of film making knowledge is likely to dig you a very deep hole.

 

[SkyCopeland]

That's about as insulting as someone saying, "So you bought into the Full Sail BS, hook, line and sinker". have you gone through Dov S. Simens material? While I don't agree with everything he says, listen to what he says, ignore what doesn't make sense to you and absorb and apply the rest.

You're right. I'll go ahead and buy this dvd set (if Full Sail doesn't already own it; or it being on Creative Edge as most educational dvds and texts are on Creative Edge, highly recommend). I hope this guy does more than tell me about benefits of being a DGA member in the actual dvds...

Then I'll have the right to compare the two, correct?

http://www.gregmasuda.com/blog/?p=1347

If this review is to believed... I'm in for a painful 14 hours.

I think it's disgusting that film schools pump out heaps of useless film makers who have no hope of a career every year.

I think it's disgusting as well. Luckily they do have no hope of a career. The ones that did very well in the program, well they mostly find work pretty easy.

While Dov is firmly in the B grade bracket, his views do offer a real world, though perhaps need some updating, alternative. He does focus on producing. I believe that only a fool takes one point of view as gospel. As with film school, having multiple teachers gets the best effect as you form your skill set. Relying on Dov as your only source of film making knowledge is likely to dig you a very deep hole.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1167662/

How is that B grade?

 

[NickClapper]

If you can go to university, you should go to university. I'm ambivalent about film school, but college, whatever your major, is 9 times out of 10 a positive experience. Academically, socially and economically, it'll stand you in good stead.

I find some of the debates on this forum about film school vs no film school a bit tiring and unconstructive.

A DVD learning course will never be a replacement for a full college experience, that much is obvious. Which isn't to say that Dov Simens doesn't have a place – a lot of people can't afford college, or can't take the time, or simply don't want to go away for 3-4 years. And, in those circumstances, it'll serve them well.

I don't know much about film schools in the US, but in the UK Film Production is not a hugely popular undergraduate 'major', and only offered by less academically oriented universities. This is why I think a lot of people flock to the US because, at an undergraduate level at least, it seems to be the best, if not only, place to study film.

That said, I had a look at the Full Sail university website and a few things stood out. Bear in mind that I don't know much about US film schools but I was wondering about A) it being private, are there not cheaper options on an academic par? What about schools like NYU and UCLA? and B) the list of alumni seem to include very few successful filmmakers, so why is there so much confidence that your film school education will lead to greater success than taking an online learning course?

I can understand being very pro-film school if there's a lot of empirical evidence for the success of graduates. And I understand that the grad school programs at places like AFI and USC are very highly rated. But given that we're all involved in a bit of a crapshoot anyway, I'm not sure that talking about film school like it's some direct route to success is very fruitful.

 

[Sweetie]

Then I'll have the right to compare the two, correct?

The benefit of living in a free society is you already have the right to compare the two. If you experience both, you can make an informed comparison. You've seemed to already have formed your opinion and quite frankly, you're entitled to it.

Look, I don't really care if you watch it or not. I don't know if you'll get anything out of it. I know I did. Did I swallow everything he says, of course not. I think he's a nutcase and a relic from a time long forgotten. He also has a valid point of view.

For all I know, your Full Sail teaches you everything you need to launch your successful career. Who knows. Maybe you already know it all and you're paying your tuition for that piece of paper? That's your business.

Maybe your destiny is to walk into fully funded 8+ figure studio budgeted productions straight out of film school. If that's the case, this will likely waste your time.

I'm in for a painful 14 hours.

Both my wife and I agree with this point. It is painful. That being said, so is half the shit they put you through in film school. It doesn't mean there isn't something worthwhile to learn.

How is that B grade?

What did you link to?

If I'm not mistaken, here's his company, Troma:

http://www.imdb.com/company/co0019150/?ref_=tt_dt_co

While the material he makes is not my cup of tea, I believe there are still things you can learn from those who've been in the industry that long.

 

[SkyCopeland]

That said, I had a look at the Full Sail university website and a few things stood out. Bear in mind that I don't know much about US film schools but I was wondering about A) it being private, are there not cheaper options on an academic par? What about schools like NYU and UCLA?

Well you have two types of film school... you have Theory and Science. Most "film schools" are theory based and teach you the rules and history of film. How to analyse film.

Then schools like Full Sail University and (sadly) New York Film Academy are Science degrees, meaning you're taught how to actually use the equipment and implement those theories. These schools generally are for-profit and have high tuition costs. However, if you can't afford it, financial aid can.

and B) the list of alumni seem to include very few successful filmmakers, so why is there so much confidence that your film school education will lead to greater success than taking an online learning course?

I can understand being very pro-film school if there's a lot of empirical evidence for the success of graduates. And I understand that the grad school programs at places like AFI and USC are very highly rated. But given that we're all involved in a bit of a crapshoot anyway, I'm not sure that talking about film school like it's some direct route to success is very fruitful.

Darren Lynn Bousman
Steven C. Miller I don't think he's on our Hall of Fame yet... but he's really big right now, making a movie with Bruce Willies, previously directed Malcolm McDowell for the Silent as Night reboot.
Ryan Connolly Film Riot, pro tip, he's basically just reteaching what his instructors at Full Sail taught him. We find it kinda fun to identify which teachers he had based on how he talks about stuff.
Ric Viers His IMDb is lacking because he mainly just sells his sound effects. He's famous however for the go-to film sound handbooks "The Location Sound Bible" and "The Sound Effects Bible". (I believe he teaches on the sound program now)
Larry Katz Not only does he have great AD credits and graduated the DGA Training Program directly after graduating FS, but he is the Final Project Instructor at Full Sail and teaches us how to get jobs as PAs with PA Boot Camp.
Hunter M. Via I didn't forget an editor. Edited 10+ episodes of The Walking Dead (I think the very early ones), Sons of Anarchy, The Shield, and worked on some of the Saw films with Darren Bousman (not IMDb credited, but they discussed it this year at a Full Sail panel where Hunter was inducted to Hall of Fame.) He and Darren were in the same class. Graduated together. Moved together to LA. The teachers remember these two a lot for their extreme passion and drive.

there are a lot more, but these are the ones I know off the top of my head as well as have met and talked with... We've had plenty of successful graduates and even more successful teachers (some of which have a few hundred credits)... with almost a hundred grads working last year on nominated Oscar films.

 

[SkyCopeland]

Both my wife and I agree with this point. It is painful. That being said, so is half the shit they put you through in film school. It doesn't mean there isn't something worthwhile to learn.

You've watched this dvd series of his? Hmm... anyways... I greatly enjoy my classes? I make short films every with a crew of 12+ like-minded people. Also I work in the soundstage and get payed for it... I have no pain waking up in the morning for class or work, shit I'm excited.

What did you link to?

If I'm not mistaken, here's his company, Troma:

http://www.imdb.com/company/co0019150/?ref_=tt_dt_co

While the material he makes is not my cup of tea, I believe there are still things you can learn from those who've been in the industry that long.

I linked you to HIS IMDb page.

Troma is owned by Lloyd Kaufman and Michael Herz and has been since 1974 and as far as their company is concerned, they have never reported working with the guy we are discussing.

 

[Sweetie]

You've watched this dvd series of his?

I have watched Dov S. Simens 2 Day Film School. I can only assume it's the same, it was a while ago. It may have been updated, changed for all I know.

I greatly enjoy my classes?

Hey, that's great for you. These days I find classroom studies very tedious. The pace is often designed for the lowest common denominator and often the slow pace of learning infuriates me. Each to their own I suppose.

they have never reported working with the guy we are discussing

Maybe I'm mistaken. I don't think so, but it's a possibility. Maybe there was some teaching material that came from that company that I subconsciously linked to Dov.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying film school is bad. I know what its like to go through the film school grind.

On a side note, I'd love to see some more recent samples of your work. I don't remember seeing anything.

 

[elemental]

I have been in film school Finland and after that working 5 years. If you know lot of things before going. There is lot of boring stuff and repeating. It depends lot of about your self and what type of teachers you got. I don't know much about US Schools, but School is good place to get different type of equipment to your hands. Without school you have to know lot of people or rent different cameras and lights etc. I think in the beginning is good to try different equipment's and learn how to use new equipment's fast. School is good place to make mistakes.

If you learn by yourself. You don't maybe know how to work in professional group. If you are used to that all people doing little bit every thing it can be hard to work when every one have they own job if you are not used to that.

It is little bit about luck too that what type of people you get studying with. Maybe you get some people who work with you rest of you life or not.

After school not every one can be famous directors, but good thing is that there is lot of job's that don't need so much talent. But good people have always work and I don't recommend this career to people who want stable life work with 8 hours of the day. I have heard that if you want to be good at some thing you have to work for at least 10 000 hours so it is much more than just going to school.

Think what type of one thing you are interested and try to find school where they teach it like editing, filming, directing, lights, sound.....?

 

[mrpink89]

it all depends. i'm sure some people want to go to film school to work on movies and not direct. in retrospect how cool would that be? even though you're not the one who's directing but you're still on set doing whatever job it is you do. Probably get to meet a bunch of actors maybe kiss an actress or five?

 

[jrusso]

I understand you now. You watched an infomercial and eat every disgusting word.

Not very nice.

No, actually, I haven't had the need to spend $30K on film school and I haven't had to purchase and sit through Dov S. Simens 2 day film school. However, I have found that the majority of what he says, rings true. So it's a good option for someone who doesn't want to waste $30,000 at Full Sail. Because the majority of what they spread over a year, can be taught in a 2 day film school in reality. It's the slow of learning who would find something like that of benefit.

In the end, I'm an advocate of researching and learning on your own, which is what higher education tends to be about anyways. Lots of time in a classroom wasted only to boil down to 5 - 10 hours of self study and research per week.

 

[jrusso]

Can you join the DGA? No. Sorry, but it's a very hard to get into guild... You can look up the very difficult requirements if you'd like, I don't keep them in my head because the thought of joining is well beyond me. (More of an IATSE person)

I once was you. Young, "full of knowledge" I had learned from people who dumped their garbage down my ears, and telling every adult around me how foolish they were. Just as you did the other day when you shit on my Kickstarter campaign, when you yourself had funded a $10 cookie.

Trust me, although I lost my temper at you and your nastiness the other day, I am MUCH more experienced with people and business than you are. So, I can tell you with a much greater degree of accuracy, how to sell yourself and make a name for yourself without the need for following a track that the majority are failing to succeed at.

I personally have no interest in making it big in film, and I bet because of that, I will make it much farther than you will. Because I don't give a shit what happens with my film career, and you actually do. I have a good career. If film happens for me, WONDERFUL. If not, I'm more than happy to shoot low / micro budget features/short films that never do more than sit on my shelf filled with all my other shitty films.

Know how I know I'll go farther by not caring? Experience. Not on film sets, but in general business dealings. Let's let time do the trick and we'll keep tabs on each other. If you do better than I do, I promise, I will actually be happy. Because I DON'T CARE!!!

 

[jrusso]

No your no budget film will not enter a film festival and find distribution... it might, low chance, get someone to have faith in your next project making a profit though.

I'm guessing based on your 0% accuracy in predicting that my Kickstarter campaign wouldn't fund, then my film probably will win huge awards/accolades. Great to have you around kid. Thx.

Good news is, I don't have $30,000 in student loans to have to pay back and I have a lucrative career as a software engineer should my film tank. Yay for having options. My mortgage is paid ahead of schedule, and our cars are nearly paid off, and my son is off to Law School in a few years. (An upper level education that actually means something.) I have a good life. Film doesn't define it. It only enhances it.

LOL

 

[sfoster]

If I were a troll this is exactly the kind of thread I would create.
Because it's something that people are always going to argue about.

I'm not saying you're a troll I'm just trying to make a point.