Proposed $1,000 ~ $1,200 setup ~ Your opinion?

[g9m3c]

Hello everyone! I come from the world of DSLR stills and have recently gotten the bug for filmmaking. A friend (who is much more experienced) and I are looking to buy a complete gear setup for $1,000 ~ $1,200. We recently shot a 5 minute film with a T2i and Zoom H2, so I am familiar and aware of the capabilities of those two devices. Here is the list I have compiled so far. Your advice and suggestions are very much welcomed.


Canon T3i w/ 18-55 kit lens ~ $700
Zoom H2n with accessory pack ~ $185
Pelican 1450 case w/foam pack for T3i, H2n and accessories ~ $75
Audio Technica ATR 6550 shotgun mic ~ $50
Sunpak 8001 UT Tripod ~ $25
Supplies to build audio boom ~ $50

Total ~ $1,085 which leaves enough room for inevitable necessities

Our thinking is the T2i produces really nice video for its class and the addition of the multi-angle screen and other small improvements in the T3i should fit our bill pretty well. The H2n, I'm a bit more unsure about. I have watched multiple review videos on it but haven't seen much mention of it here. It's the successor to the H2 which is talked about here a lot as an entry level recorder. Maybe it's not old enough yet to have a large user base? I know my tripod selection is quite cheap, but it actually seems to be the best bang-for-the-buck tripod under $50. Plus, we used its little brother (2001) during our most recent shoot and although we didn't test it too hard, it never failed us. The shotgun mic has been mentioned here a good bit, as well. I have yet to find a better solution for $50. My thinking is use the H2n itself for ambient/field recording and the 6550 connected to the H2n for dialogue/close range audio.


Now, how far off-base am I?

Cheers!

~Grant

 

[Zensteve]

Zoom H2 doesn't accept XLR jacks. The Zoom H4 does.

Alcove posted some very legit looking latest generation field recorders for about $300 just the other day, btw.

 

[IndieBudget]

You will have a basic LOW budget setup. Master it, then move up to better tools. You can do some cool things with the gear you are talking about. Alcove will wince when he sees the sound stuff, but on a shoestring budget it will do. You must use proper techniques for sound otherwise it will sound horrid, be warned. BUT it is a good start.

Im hoping on my next project to hire people who have pro gear to do both the camera work and the sound. That way my dollars will go farther.

Good Luck & be creative

 

[g9m3c]

Zoom H2 doesn't accept XLR jacks. The Zoom H4 does.

Alcove posted some very legit looking latest generation field recorders for about $300 just the other day, btw.

I did read that thread earlier today. Unfortunately, that would push our budget to its breaking point. How necessary are XLR jacks to the kind of films that would be produced on this budget anyway?

 

[g9m3c]

You will have a basic LOW budget setup. Master it, then move up to better tools. You can do some cool things with the gear you are talking about. Alcove will wince when he sees the sound stuff, but on a shoestring budget it will do. You must use proper techniques for sound otherwise it will sound horrid, be warned. BUT it is a good start.

Im hoping on my next project to hire people who have pro gear to do both the camera work and the sound. That way my dollars will go farther.

Good Luck & be creative

We'll fix it in POST, RIGHT?

Thanks for the encouragement. We do what we can. I just want to ensure we aren't missing similarly priced equipment that will work better for us. It seems as though I came to the right place.

 

[IndieBudget]

Main thing is NOT having XLR cables , the cord on the mic will attract plenty of buzz and hiss if you use an extension cord and you are running lights. A solution is to mount the recorder onto the boom and not use an extension, use the extension for some headphones so you can monitor the sound.. TEST, TEST , TEST and master your tools.

The setup is low end as one can get, but you can get passable sound for learning. Develop your skills and amaze us w/ your passion and story, then get better tools.

HAVE FUN !

 

[Alcove Audio]

You're right; I looked at that list and thought "Oh f***ing s**t, here we go again."

BTW, you left out the most important piece of audio gear - HEADPHONES.

The way to defeat the problems you will encounter is with knowledge and technique, and lots of it. Unfortunately, no matter how much you read, most of that knowledge and technique will be learned in the field, so unless you do large amounts of experimentation prior to shooting the audio garbage will end up in your projects. IndieBudget can probably give you chapter and verse.

As I point out so frequently, someone whose job is audio, only audio and nothing but audio is essential, and if they happen have some idea of what they're doing it's a huge help. If they actually know what they're doing you may even end up with acceptable audio with your budget kit.

Your project will only look as good as it sounds, because "Sound is half of the experience."

So why aren't you spending half the money on audio?

 

[g9m3c]

You're right; I looked at that list and thought "Oh f***ing s**t, here we go again."

BTW, you left out the most important piece of audio gear - HEADPHONES.

The way to defeat the problems you will encounter is with knowledge and technique, and lots of it. Unfortunately, no matter how much you read, most of that knowledge and technique will be learned in the field, so unless you do large amount of experimentation prior to shooting the audio garbage will end up in your projects. IndieBudget can probably give you chapter and verse.

As I point out so frequently, someone whose job is audio, only audio and nothing but audio is essential, and if they happen have some idea of what they're doing it's a huge help. If they actually know what they're doing you may even end up with acceptable audio with your budget kit.

Your project will only look as good as it sounds, because "Sound is half of the experience."

So why aren't you spending half the money on audio?

I already have a couple sets of really nice headphones. I used them for our first shoot and was satisfied. We're not spending half the money on audio because that wouldn't leave us enough for a decent video DSLR and we are more concerned with look than sound. I know the last part of that sentence sounds crude and ignorant but it is true. I have much more experience with audio editing than I do video editing and I have heard some recordings with the H2n that sound very nice and workable.

Now, with that said....the main gripe I had with the Zoom H2 was the amount of buzz or hum you would get in a dead silent environment. We were using it attached directly to the end of our boom with no external microphone, so I know the 3.5mm ungrounded connections couldn't be at fault. I would be all for the H4 or other recorders that have XLR connections if this humming or buzzing is reduced (when using their onboard mics). The XLR connections would be great for the future. Coming from a music background, we have a good selection of mics that use XLR connections from on-stage vocal mics to condenser mics, drum set mic kits, etc. The only issue is most of these require phantom power. I haven't read enough on recorders and mics that require phantom power, but I assume they exist? I definitely still have more research to do....

 

[PaulGriffith]

Might be better off with some vintage (fairly cheap) primes instead of the kit, but it will work.

Extra batteries a must! eBay for those, can get some good deals on gray market batteries.

If you are concerned with image, then lighting is something to think about. Unless you shoot 100% outdoor daylight, need some lights. Even "low and natural light" DSLRs generally look like junk without a properly lit set.

 

[g9m3c]

Might be better off with some vintage (fairly cheap) primes instead of the kit, but it will work.

Extra batteries a must! eBay for those, can get some good deals on gray market batteries.

If you are concerned with image, then lighting is something to think about. Unless you shoot 100% outdoor daylight, need some lights. Even "low and natural light" DSLRs generally look like junk without a properly lit set.

Definitely. We bought 2 of these for our first shoot. Ran off of a vehicle and power inverter with 75 watt bulbs. We clamped them to tripods. hahaha

I'm really not sure what a better setup would be that would be portable. Suggestions?

We definitely ran into battery issues with the T2i on set. At least one extra battery is a must.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I already have a couple sets of really nice headphones.

Okay, good.

We're not spending half the money on audio because that wouldn't leave us enough for a decent video DSLR and we are more concerned with look than sound.

You didn't notice the smilies?

Now, with that said....the main gripe I had with the Zoom H2 was the amount of buzz or hum you would get in a dead silent environment. We were using it attached directly to the end of our boom with no external microphone, so I know the 3.5mm ungrounded connections couldn't be at fault.

The unit itself has crappy shielding, which makes sense since it's only around $100. Also keep in mind that sounds are exaggerated by the recording process, so things you would not hear with your ears and your mental "editing" function are much more noticeable.

Oh, one more... Reminds me of a guy who was booming an H1 It sounded fine in his hand, but couldn't figure out why there was a buzz when on the boom near the ceiling. Turns out there were florescent lights in the ceiling. In addition to the buzz from the florescent lights the (unshielded) H1 was coming into the RF "interference zone" that some florescent lighting causes.

If you're familiar with audio you should know about shielding problems. You should also know that there are all sorts of odd RF and electrical problems that crop up in even the most seemingly benign sonic environment. And the problem is only getting worse with the proliferation of cell phones, PDAs and wi-fi devices like tablets and laptops.

 

[rayw]

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=36403
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=37136

Your camera is fine.
Really consider "exchanging" the Zoom H2n for the Tascam DR-100.
The XLR jacks and cables will allow you to record with considerably less audio artifact and "junk" to clean up and filter later.
You'll likely need a good Manfrotto tripod and head, and don't be surprised if you find yourself building a DIY shoulder rig and roller track.

What sort of projects do you guys plan on tackling and their destination? Festivals or youtube funNgames?

 

[Utopia]

The Tascam DR-40 isn't actually that bad of a unit - I can get it for around $150

 

[g9m3c]

The unit itself has crappy shielding, which makes sense since it's only around $100. Also keep in mind that sounds are exaggerated by the recording process, so things you would not hear with your ears and your mental "editing" function are much more noticeable.

Oh, one more... Reminds me of a guy who was booming an H1 It sounded fine in his hand, but couldn't figure out why there was a buzz when on the boom near the ceiling. Turns out there were florescent lights in the ceiling. In addition to the buzz from the florescent lights the (unshielded) H1 was coming into the RF "interference zone" that some florescent lighting causes.

If you're familiar with audio you should know about shielding problems. You should also know that there are all sorts of odd RF and electrical problems that crop up in even the most seemingly benign sonic environment. And the problem is only getting worse with the proliferation of cell phones, PDAs and wi-fi devices like tablets and laptops.

That's the thing, though. I could be standing in the middle of an unlit parking lot (literally, I was) and the recording would have a bit of constant buzz. Underground electrical lines or just a buzzy device? I had issues with cell phones and lighting with it, but I don't think shielding was an issue in that parking lot. I just want to know if we upgrade (if we do, it will be the DR-100) we won't have a native buzz like that on all recordings.

Your camera is fine.
Really consider "exchanging" the Zoom H2n for the Tascam DR-100.
The XLR jacks and cables will allow you to record with considerably less audio artifact and "junk" to clean up and filter later.
You'll likely need a good Manfrotto tripod and head, and don't be surprised if you find yourself building a DIY shoulder rig and roller track.

What sort of projects do you guys plan on tackling and their destination? Festivals or youtube funNgames?

We are considering it. My friend is getting $750 tomorrow for a wedding shoot he has scheduled, so upgrading the audio seems viable now. He needs the equipment for his side business and our plan is to split the cost now and he will make payments to me until he eventually owns it all. We have also been looking into a DIY roller track. Should be easy as cake. Right now, we are just using it for youtube fun. If we got exposure, then great. If not, it'll still be one hell of a time. I live with all of these guys and the amount of talent in this house is outstanding. I can't wait to see what we all can do together.


EDIT:
I've been reading through countless microphone threads tonight and I am becoming more and more confused. We have decided that the DR-100 is worth buying up front but we also need an XLR mic to go with it. I was thinking about a shotgun mic, but is that really my best option? We definitely do not have the budget for 2 or more decent mics right now. I think we need a good "all-around" mic to begin with that will capture acceptable dialogue (inside and outside), environment noise, cars, etc. Would some kind of a cardioid be our best bet? The budget for this mic will have to be around $100 as much as I hate to say it. This will be attached to our boom pole.

 

[brianluce]

GH2 whips that Canon and it's the same price more or less.
There are some good close outs on the Tascam DR100 because it's been replaced by DR100 Mk II, it's got XLR's and separate level controls.

 

[Phil_UK]

F**k the sound, spend it all on video equipment..

Buy a T2i, get a Samyang 35mm F1.4 or something equally as nice and spend the rest on cards, batteries and a propper tripd.





Hire a sound guy..

 

[Alcove Audio]

That's the thing, though. I could be standing in the middle of an unlit parking lot (literally, I was) and the recording would have a bit of constant buzz. Underground electrical lines or just a buzzy device? I had issues with cell phones and lighting with it, but I don't think shielding was an issue in that parking lot. I just want to know if we upgrade (if we do, it will be the DR-100) we won't have a native buzz like that on all recordings.

There's always the chance that you have a defective unit, or that you have a bad cable.

(As an aside; another reason I dislike most inexpensive, high impedance consumer fare is if the cable breaks it cannot be replaced and the whole thing is useless; and most likely it will cost more to repair than replace it.)

Light stanchions still have power running through them even though they aren't lit, and the RF from a neon sign (especially a cheap one) can travel a long way, and they have their own buzzing noise that can travel quite a ways as well. And there are still radio transmission towers about as well as electric towers; and yes, underground electric can generate interference not to mention good old fashioned electric wires on poles; transformers on these poles are especially guilty. Plus, it's getting harder and harder to get away from civilization, and sounds can travel an amazingly long way.

(Insert Uncle Bob Stories )

High impedance sound gear is especially susceptible to all sorts of RF and other interferences. The unshielded cabling acts like an antenna and captures stray RF and electric.

You also must keep in mind that a microphone captures sounds much differently than your ears capture sounds and your brain immediately "edits" them before you actually hear them - one reason to wear headphones all the time. And most audio playback is another artificial medium (most of us can't afford 14.2 surround). So sounds that are very quiet and unnoticed when in the field are artificially magnified by the recording and playback process.

The combination of these circumstances can be a misery for we audio types.

I've been reading through countless microphone threads tonight and I am becoming more and more confused. We have decided that the DR-100 is worth buying up front but we also need an XLR mic to go with it. I was thinking about a shotgun mic, but is that really my best option? We definitely do not have the budget for 2 or more decent mics right now. I think we need a good "all-around" mic to begin with that will capture acceptable dialogue (inside and outside), environment noise, cars, etc. Would some kind of a cardioid be our best bet? The budget for this mic will have to be around $100 as much as I hate to say it. This will be attached to our boom pole.

I will repeat myself - it all comes down to technique. You can use a shotgun indoors, but have to spend even more time preparing the set, and be especially good with your boom technique. A hypercardioid mitigates, but does not eliminate, the echoey roomy sound. As a musician you know something about mics, but when you venture into film production sound you have to learn a whole new way of thinking; I know that it took me a while to readjust my thought processes.

Your biggest concern is supplying phantom power to the shotgun. The NTG-2 and AT897 can both use an internal battery, but for some reason mics that self-supply phantom seem to have lower output levels. However, if you choose a mic like the NTG-1 or AT875 they will need to be supplied phantom power from an external source, and phantom power drains the batteries of budget recorders like the DR-100, H4n, etc. very rapidly, so battery packs (an additional cost) are recommended.

 

[Anim8]

I would recommend the GH2 and a few vintage primes over the Canon also....

 

[g9m3c]

GH2 whips that Canon and it's the same price more or less.
There are some good close outs on the Tascam DR100 because it's been replaced by DR100 Mk II, it's got XLR's and separate level controls.

Not hardly. The body only is $100 more than the T3i. Add a decent lens and you're in the $950+ range.

F**k the sound, spend it all on video equipment..

Buy a T2i, get a Samyang 35mm F1.4 or something equally as nice and spend the rest on cards, batteries and a propper tripd.





Hire a sound guy..

No way. We're in this to learn and DIY. We'll make it work one way or the other.

I will repeat myself - it all comes down to technique. You can use a shotgun indoors, but have to spend even more time preparing the set, and be especially good with your boom technique. A hypercardioid mitigates, but does not eliminate, the echoey roomy sound. As a musician you know something about mics, but when you venture into film production sound you have to learn a whole new way of thinking; I know that it took me a while to readjust my thought processes.

Your biggest concern is supplying phantom power to the shotgun. The NTG-2 and AT897 can both use an internal battery, but for some reason mics that self-supply phantom seem to have power output levels. However, if you choose a mic like the NTG-1 or AT875 they will need to be supplied phantom power from an external source, and phantom power drains the batteries of budget recorders like the DR-100, H4n, etc. very rapidly, so battery packs (an additional cost) are recommended.

We will definitely invest in a spare battery and probably the power supply for the DR100.

For $200, which shotgun mic would you choose? I would assume that we also need a dead cat for it. I've heard more good things about the Sennheiser ME66 than other mics at that price range...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that we're adding an EF 50mm f/1.8 to the mix. We will be shooting in low light quite frequently...

 

[Alcove Audio]

As I already mentioned, the AT875 and NTG-1 (they require external phantom power) are the more popular mics in that price range.

The ME-66 is $500. If you see it for $200 you're only getting the capsule, not the entire mic.