Pet Peeve - People Can't Understand "For Credit Only" Requests?

[Graeme]

I'm sure, like many of you I operate on a low-budget/low-budget productions. I'm wondering if this happens only to me, or is it common, and your suggestions on how to avoid such people.

The Scenario:
I'm the producer of a low-budget movie/short. I put up an ad clearly stating "for credit only" and people contact me with services because they want exposure. I find someone I want to work with and contact them to discuss what they are willing to do for the project given that is "for credit only". They explain that they would do x, y, z (such as provide 1 pre-made song, or a few hours of their time to help with editing, etc). Then we get to the written agreement stage (basically to cover each others behinds) and suddenly they stop talking "for credit only" and start demanding extra renumeration, such as: Cash up front, cash on completion, percentage of revenue (where by their percentage is far and excess the amount their work actually represents in the movie), royalty fees, etc.

One Example:
Talked to a local about writing a script for me, they have written a few small unpublished books and a few plays etc. But they are unpublished and have never had something turned into a motion picture. I start talking to them about the possibility they could help me with my next project and they seem very on-board (again for credit only - it would be their first story made into a movie so that is actually worth something to a newcomer vs. seasoned writer) and once I send them my list of available resources, cast number, etc, they turn around and ask for $5000 - far more than I had budgeted for the movie (capital equipment aside). Thats just aggravating...

What gives? This has happen to me quite a number of times in various production tasks. I know I'm asking for something for as close to "free" as possible, but I tend to be very clear from the beginning that there will be no cash in the transaction. Yet I'm still getting people who think they can smile and talk nice to me about my project, seem to go along with the idea but as soon as you get to the written agreement stage they suddenly want cold hard cash, and often more than I would pay for, if I was paying!

Do you have suggestions? Or am I just barking up the wrong tree thinking that credit means something to anyone?

 

[Zensteve]

The ability to say "No" is what really makes the difference between a someone trying and an actual professional.

But that's not what Graeme (the OP) is talking about.

He's talking about people who agree to do things for free (or credit, which is essentially the same)... and who change their mind when it's time to deliver.

There's nothing wrong with straight up declining work, or trying to negotiate a better deal when first responding to requests. That's very different from agreeing to volunteer time/gear/skill for free, and then stickin' it to the production when one gets the chance.

 

[Brooksy]

Good point Zensteve. I clearly got a little side tracked. Sorry.

 

[Graeme]

Wow that is an interesting discussion that broke out. I agree with the sentiment that if your a sound guy / DP / Guy with Grip Truck and I'm asking you to help me out with your equipment, free doesn't cut it (at least pay them what it would cost to rent the equipment). That is why I purchased all the equipment I use in my movies (and yes I know what hypercardoid means). And it would be "work-for-hire" as I need to own the movie 100%, if I can I would pay out pre-defined deferred honorariums for a feature, when and if I can get some positive cash flow out of this.

That said my issue is that people will give me soft commitments saying they will do something (for credit/free) but when I want them to sign a piece of paper they get all complicated and start demanding terms we never discussed or lots of money (this has been a major issue in getting music). So end result is I do it myself, I am capable of it (not the same quality) and it does take more time, but it does get done... eventually.

Things that I had hoped not to have to do for my movie which I'm doing:
Music
Editing
CGI
DP
Foley

Things it looks like I will be doing for my next movie that I would really like to out-source:
All of the Above
Script
Costumes
All Post Work

There are some great opportunities (or at least I think so) for people to get experience and get some recognition, but people don't seem interested, and those who do keep yanking my chain when it comes to the bottom line.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

But that's not what Graeme (the OP) is talking about.

He's talking about people who agree to do things for free (or credit, which is essentially the same)... and who change their mind when it's time to deliver.

There's nothing wrong with straight up declining work, or trying to negotiate a better deal when first responding to requests. That's very different from agreeing to volunteer time/gear/skill for free, and then stickin' it to the production when one gets the chance.

Flaking out?

When someone develops that reputation, finding work is hard to do.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Wow that is an interesting discussion that broke out. I agree with the sentiment that if your a sound guy / DP / Guy with Grip Truck and I'm asking you to help me out with your equipment, free doesn't cut it (at least pay them what it would cost to rent the equipment). That is why I purchased all the equipment I use in my movies (and yes I know what hypercardoid means). And it would be "work-for-hire" as I need to own the movie 100%, if I can I would pay out pre-defined deferred honorariums for a feature, when and if I can get some positive cash flow out of this.

That said my issue is that people will give me soft commitments saying they will do something (for credit/free) but when I want them to sign a piece of paper they get all complicated and start demanding terms we never discussed or lots of money (this has been a major issue in getting music). So end result is I do it myself, I am capable of it (not the same quality) and it does take more time, but it does get done... eventually.

Things that I had hoped not to have to do for my movie which I'm doing:
Music
Editing
CGI
DP
Foley

Things it looks like I will be doing for my next movie that I would really like to out-source:
All of the Above
Script
Costumes
All Post Work

There are some great opportunities (or at least I think so) for people to get experience and get some recognition, but people don't seem interested, and those who do keep yanking my chain when it comes to the bottom line.

You may want to learn how to write your own scripts.

A writer has the right to copyright their own spec scripts. In which case, you will have to pay a fee to obtain the rights to the script.

Costumes: Everyday wear you can have the actors bring in from home.

Special costumes, they will cost to be:

a) designed

b) constructed

Post work?

If your takes aren't slated and logged, your script does not have scene numbers and storyboards that correspond to the footage, and your tapes, hard drives, and material is all disorganized with no or bad labeling, incomplete, and not in standard formats, no one will do post for you. NEVER waste an editors time. Indie editors get paid $600 to $2,000 a day. A post audio editing house can charge $20,000 to edit 10 minutes of footage. So, don't waste any post people's time.

The more you can help yourself in post, the better.

You may want to see if you can find any entry level work in a post house. Even logging in footage for editors is a good learning experience to appreciate the importance of being organized for an editor and post people.

 

[Graeme]

You may want to learn how to write your own scripts.

I wrote the first short on Celtx. I wrote/produced/directed/DP the whole thing, got one of the actors to do 1/2 the sound and the rest was people acting out the movie.

The more you can help yourself in post, the better.
You may want to see if you can find any entry level work in a post house.

Yeah I have a day job so I'm learning as I go in After Effects and Premier, so far so good, it just takes time.


So my free time is spent between writing the script to my next movie and working on the post for the last one.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

I wrote the first short on Celtx. I wrote/produced/directed/DP the whole thing, got one of the actors to do 1/2 the sound and the rest was people acting out the movie.



Yeah I have a day job so I'm learning as I go in After Effects and Premier, so far so good, it just takes time.


So my free time is spent between writing the script to my next movie and working on the post for the last one.

Excellent! You're ahead of other producers just starting out.

 

[Mindmaster]

People always get confused with what a producer is. Producers aren't about money they are about making sure the film is getting finished. That's to say that on a no-budget film he's the guy that is making sure every single bit of the film happens logistically, and that has nothing to do with MONEY he personally may put NOTHING into this film. Executive producers source money, co-producers invest the money, associate producers are married to one of these people or may have introduced one of these folks to the producer. Directors are in this tier as well... Actors are above the line as well as long as they're not extras.

There is no place in Hollywood nor in Chicago that you're going to get a piece of this work unless you are above the line. That's to say one of the people I mentioned above. You can be the best sound guy or editor there is whatever there is, but if you are below the line you are not getting dibs on anything. Why? You don't risk a damn thing really... your rep isn't on the line if this bellies up, and you aren't losing cash or face...

If ANYONE asks me for a piece on a film I'm working on and their not performing the roles above they're immediately out. They know what they get even if it's credit, and if they accept the deal then I'm not going to argue with them. I try to be fair, but if someone is truly experienced they know they don't normally get parts of the action for what they do so why are they asking? To rip me off? Ahh... Yep, that's it.

Why worry about it? If you're even talking with the low-budget or no budget guy you know what is in his wallet... aka nothing... so you want a screen credit? Are you going to do your best work or cripe about the loot? Get your resume and be cool with people and the money will come.

 

[directorik]

I’m with you 100% gpforet. I see exactly where you’re coming from
and I see nothing wrong with the way you approach your jobs. I
understand that donating time to a project is very similar to
being a producer.

I respond to "back-end compensation negotiable postings only to find that most will not commit anything to writing.

How many movies do you own 10% of? I'm curious how many producers
go for this deal.

 

[Cracker Funk]

People always get confused with what a producer is. Producers aren't about money they are about making sure the film is getting finished. That's to say that on a no-budget film he's the guy that is making sure every single bit of the film happens logistically, and that has nothing to do with MONEY he personally may put NOTHING into this film. Executive producers source money, co-producers invest the money, associate producers are married to one of these people or may have introduced one of these folks to the producer. Directors are in this tier as well... Actors are above the line as well as long as they're not extras.

There is no place in Hollywood nor in Chicago that you're going to get a piece of this work unless you are above the line. That's to say one of the people I mentioned above. You can be the best sound guy or editor there is whatever there is, but if you are below the line you are not getting dibs on anything. Why? You don't risk a damn thing really... your rep isn't on the line if this bellies up, and you aren't losing cash or face...

If ANYONE asks me for a piece on a film I'm working on and their not performing the roles above they're immediately out. They know what they get even if it's credit, and if they accept the deal then I'm not going to argue with them. I try to be fair, but if someone is truly experienced they know they don't normally get parts of the action for what they do so why are they asking? To rip me off? Ahh... Yep, that's it.

Why worry about it? If you're even talking with the low-budget or no budget guy you know what is in his wallet... aka nothing... so you want a screen credit? Are you going to do your best work or cripe about the loot? Get your resume and be cool with people and the money will come.

I like a lot of what you're saying. However, I feel like you're forgetting about the fact that we're talking about people working for no pay upfront. You don't really expect an experienced sound-guy, bringing his/her own equipment to work completely for free, do you? If the film profits, doesn't this person deserve to be rewarded for their time?

You say that they aren't risking anything -- I beg to differ. Time is money. For many people, this euphemism is quite literal. If I'm volunteering my time to your project, when I could've invested my time elsewhere (say, maybe in my own project), I'm definitely risking something. Time ain't free. And everybody who offers their time deserves a piece of the pie.

 

[directorik]

You may be right. But, anyone with any considerable experience I've come into contact with want to be paid for their time.

That's too bad. I have run into dozens of people
with considerable experience who are willing to
donate their time. But I can understand why you
won't even ask anymore and why you advise others
not to ask.

I'm going to continue to suggest that filmmakers
ask even people with considerable experience. You
never know when you'll come into contact with those
who will volunteer.

 

[Mindmaster]

I like a lot of what you're saying. However, I feel like you're forgetting about the fact that we're talking about people working for no pay upfront. You don't really expect an experienced sound-guy, bringing his/her own equipment to work completely for free, do you? If the film profits, doesn't this person deserve to be rewarded for their time?

You say that they aren't risking anything -- I beg to differ. Time is money. For many people, this euphemism is quite literal. If I'm volunteering my time to your project, when I could've invested my time elsewhere (say, maybe in my own project), I'm definitely risking something. Time ain't free. And everybody who offers their time deserves a piece of the pie.

Since I won't beat around the bush: People deserve money when they prove they do. A new sound guy might think his time is worth $100 but the new director doesn't see any worth to his time any more than the directors time (who isn't getting paid either). And, the equipment isn't free but did he buy the stuff for my film or his or geeking? Generally, he'll have the stuff whether I'm standing there or not. If he's already getting a reliable stream of cash out of this he's out of my league anyway.

What exactly are the profits of these low budget films? Say you make 50k on something through some home video deal... Is there profit or is that a starter for the next production? You need to make 3-5 productions before you have the money to really pay anyone as if you have much less than 100k you are really damaging the films chances of being able to hit a movie screen. Go ask around for a the prices on a single 35mm transfer for a 90min movie. Anyone have a concept of how much film costs itself? The people initially have to understand that you are creating a company. Don't take any pay yourself (other than the expenses) and fold the cash into the next film. Neither you or your company is making money at that juncture, but you are positioning yourself for the big leagues. If you take all the money out of the kitty everyone (including the lovely people you want to keep on the pay roll) are screwed. You are also done in film at this point because your bad rep will precede you.

Everyone wants to hit at the producers take basically, and what you don't realize is that is the kitty that will make you a new job and build the resume for others. So what if you don't get a piece of an accidental $25 million dollar film? You didn't miss nothing, you got a credit on a major flick and now can get any damn job you want probably. All decisions to pay people are based on budgets and starting films have no budget so 20% of nothing is nothing. You want to take 10% from the producer so when he makes the next film he has 10% less to fund the next project. See the difference is producer guy is putting money in the kitty, but all the help is taking it and running. I don't see why you get a cut when you never give anything back. The producer doesn't want to screw you, but he's a business person and if he actually wants to pay you regularly at some date he knows there is only one way... from the bottom up.. Say our $25 million guy ends up with $5 million in cash profits.. well what you think he's doing next? He's going to start hiring people and getting together the next blockbuster while the iron is hot and the hype machine is going. He wants to time his next release with rewards so that after he gets a couple of lines on the marquee. First thing he's going to do is tap all his associates, and one of those is YOU. At this point though he is big leagues, has all the guild memberships and pays all the standard rates. Are you crying now?

People argue about a buck when they don't realize it costs them hundreds or thousands. Your time is worth money only if you put down a money gig for a non-money gig otherwise you're expanding your horizons and launching a career. Don't expect anyone to foot the bill for your education. Be grateful at every turn that you even have an opportunity, and be thankful that someone will work with you and get it done. Do your best at every turn, and don't whine about anything! Seriously, pro's don't whine!

 

[Cracker Funk]

You've basically just made an argument as to why it's okay for a producer to F everybody in the ass. It's all about the future of the production company, you see. Any profit should be spent on the next production.

That's great. For you. The producer. But what about all those other people? They don't have a share in the production company. Only you do. So, you're justifying not paying people by saying that it's okay, because their investment will reap benefits for YOU in the future.

The biggest mistake I think you're making is assuming that everybody who associates with you is lending themselves to the success of your production company. No, they are lending themselves to the success of a specific production. If someone offers work on one film, they are offering work on THAT FILM, not every film in the potential future of your production company.

If a single film turns profit, then the people who put in work on that film are deserving of a share of the profit. And the bigger picture that you're trying to communicate has nothing to do with it. When people volunteer for a film, they're not volunteering their services forever and ever, to the success of a production company; they're volunteering their services to the end of a single, specific production.

 

[gpforet]

Honestly, never. That's kinda the point. The producer will be quick to say in the advertisement that they are offering some kind of "back-end" compensation, but when pressed, they do not have any formal idea about what they would be wiling to give up, and in most cases, as depicted in this discussion, they're not willing to give up ANYTHING, at least, not contractually. This is why I approach them in this way. This discussion has indicated that some will use the phrase "deferred pay" and think that it means "no pay". It doesn't. Why even use the word "deferred" if you really mean "no pay"?

So, I respond to ads with the word "deferred" and when I ask for specifics about the deferment I get the kind of gripping the OP mentions. I discuss this with them rationally, and about 50% of the time, I've wasted my time meeting with the producer, and 50% of the time, I get a low budget rate, sometimes deferred for a few weeks after the shoot to give them time to raise the cash. I will say that, so far, I've never been burned and all who have agreed to deferred pay have mailed the check in the time agreed to.

I have signed agreements with up to a 10% share for speculation work, specifically pilots for potential series.

I’m with you 100% gpforet. I see exactly where you’re coming from
and I see nothing wrong with the way you approach your jobs. I
understand that donating time to a project is very similar to
being a producer.

How many movies do you own 10% of? I'm curious how many producers
go for this deal.

 

[M1chae1]

I called B&H and they said they will not accept screen credit, a copy of the DVD, and two slices of pizza in exchange for $2,500/channel lectronic wireless set, or even for the $600/channel entry level sennheiser.

Then don't take the job if you don't like the terms.

But give a newbie a shotgun on a stick, no way to monitor the mic, and tell him/her to go for it and what you'll get is worth every penny you spent.

Why does it instantly go to hiring a noob who has no way of monitoring the sound? They don't have headphones also? Well, look if your project can't even give the boom op or DP headphones for monitoring, of course you're going to have sound issues. That's a bit extreme though. Typically, even micro-budgets will have headphones.

I had no boom experience...I was handed a boom three features ago on an indie project (I was also one of the leads) and I boomed. Because of the quality of my booming, I have since boomed on two other features. One of which are seeing national distro, and one premiering next month. I didn't boom the entire time obviously...but when I wasn't on screen I did. This was a shotgun mic XLR right into the camera. The sound quality is good. The dialog is clean and clear. The reviews say the sound is good enough...which is fine for our $8K movie. It's a non-issue.

My point is, you don't have to hire an expensive sound guy with expensive equipment to work on your movie--especially one that is going to make demands about part ownership of the film. Just get a steady hand, and someone who understands how sound in film works. It's not hard to monitor levels. Do some sound checks and look at the levels and then listen carefully while the scene plays out. And before anyone jumps on my ass...I'm not demeaning the job of a solid sound guy or boom op. I know it takes more than a monkey to record good audio. My point is, it's not rocket science, and a person can quickly be taught how to capture good audio on an indie set.


The finer details are only needed when you're shooting larger budgets, or have an external rig that has bells and whistles--this will take a little time to learn.

If you have a solid sound designer and a steady hand intelligent boom op...you'll be fine without a 'pro.' I seriously am not trying to be an ass here...I just think it's silly how some of you think an indie feature is suppose to run. I take it those of you who are telling me my methods are inappropriate have a few features under belt? Maybe a few seeing distribution? Everyone is telling me, basically, that my methods and ideals suck...but honestly, it's all I've seen and known, and I've worked on dozens of indie projects. So, how are all of my past experience wrong?

We're not out to screw anyone here. And we work with solid talent...none of which have asked for a 'percentage' of ownership. Yes, to be clear, as I said before, if we made a lot of money on a picture, the major players would see some cash (especially those investing equipment). But it's just not an issue, and never even brought up.

Thank you. I'm a little annoyed at my own life this morning...forgive my candor.

 

[M1chae1]

I guessing you sign a lot of contracts and don't make very much money. That's too bad. You seem to have a pretty good head on you, and some talent. If you start acting professional you could probably make some decent money in this business.

I am for doing some free work every now and then but to say yes to everything that comes my way is going to make me look like a recent college grad that doesn't know any better. The ability to say "No" is what really makes the difference between a someone trying and an actual professional.

I've done the brunt of my work on the east coast...no matter how good I am, I'm not going to make 'good money.' Trust me, I say 'no' all the time. And I don't always work for free, don't get me wrong. I'm also very picky about who I work with now'adays...so if I'm working pro bono, I want to be there.

Now, of course I'll play my cards differently when I move out to LA in March. But right now, New England doesn't have a 'day rate' for talent. Most of the work is pro bono. There are only a few people (DPs and such) who get paid decently out here. The rest of us suck it up.

Which is fine by me, because due to the myriad work I've done out here, I'll be able to go to LA with a stronger day rate than the average guy, and a confidence to ask for it.

 

[M1chae1]

But that's not what Graeme (the OP) is talking about.

He's talking about people who agree to do things for free (or credit, which is essentially the same)... and who change their mind when it's time to deliver.

There's nothing wrong with straight up declining work, or trying to negotiate a better deal when first responding to requests. That's very different from agreeing to volunteer time/gear/skill for free, and then stickin' it to the production when one gets the chance.

Exactly.

 

[M1chae1]

Indie editors get paid $600 to $2,000 a day. A post audio editing house can charge $20,000 to edit 10 minutes of footage.

I'm sorry, but where are you getting your numbers? Clearly you're talking about LA-based editors, working on low budget (not micro) budget films.

Because I've *never* heard of an editor getting paid that much for an 'indie' project out here. Most editors of indie projects work pro bono.

 

[M1chae1]

What exactly are the profits of these low budget films? Say you make 50k on something through some home video deal... Is there profit or is that a starter for the next production? You need to make 3-5 productions before you have the money to really pay anyone as if you have much less than 100k you are really damaging the films chances of being able to hit a movie screen. Go ask around for a the prices on a single 35mm transfer for a 90min movie. Anyone have a concept of how much film costs itself? The people initially have to understand that you are creating a company. Don't take any pay yourself (other than the expenses) and fold the cash into the next film. Neither you or your company is making money at that juncture, but you are positioning yourself for the big leagues. If you take all the money out of the kitty everyone (including the lovely people you want to keep on the pay roll) are screwed. You are also done in film at this point because your bad rep will precede you.

Bingo. And no Cracker, this isn't an excuse to F talent in the ass. I do *not* feel F'ed when I'm sitting at the premiere of our film and proud of my product. I do not feel F'ed when I hear we got picked up for national distro. I do not feel F'ed when I hear we got picked up for VOD. All my pro bono contribution pays itself off.

Most of the indies I work on (especially the one that always sees distro) fold any profits they make into the next project. If you were the sound guy on the previous project, were good, and professional...you will be asked to come back for the next feature.

We all hope that we are on a team that gets recognition. You pick your pro-bono work wisely. You never know who your working with and where they are going. And will they seek *you* out when they are offered a hefty budget to shoot a picture. If you told them to 'go screw' when they said I can't pay you, and I don't have a profit-bearing contract for you, then you might be screwing yourself out of future gigs and opportunity.

But while working for the good teams for free (in the beginning) you start making a name for yourself as a solid boom guy, and you have a resume. Then, you can start asking for money.

You also have to remember where you are...east coast ethics are *way* different than west.

Quick story. True story. LA film guy comes to New England after having working PA on big movies, a grip job here, a grip job there...he's got LA experience, and he comes out here demanding to get paid all the time. He thinks he's entitled to a day rate on every project. He can't seem to get hired on any films. It pisses him off. He publicly rants about this (on local forum, etc). Know what happened? He won't get hired by *any* one now. Not a single person will touch this douche bag. He started calling us 'hacks' and 'wannabes' because we couldn't pay him. He kept bringing up his 'LA experience'...know where that got him? Stuck in his moms basement, jobless, with zero prospects and a bad rep.

 

[M1chae1]

This discussion has indicated that some will use the phrase "deferred pay" and think that it means "no pay". It doesn't. Why even use the word "deferred" if you really mean "no pay"

Look, man, I'm just telling you like it is on the east coast. The term 'deferred' is used for food, credit, and copy of the DVD. It also will state somewhere that *if* the movie profits, you will see some money. Whether there is a future outlook in profit, who freakin' cares. You're working on a micro budget film, and will most likely never see any profit. If the contract states that you get a percentage of the profit...that's awesome. Good for you. If you come to them and say, "Well this is listed as a 'deferred' contract, so how much will I be getting paid after the movie, and how long until I get paid?"...most of them will say, "Well, actually, you're not getting paid. That's not what I mean by 'deferred'. What I mean is, IF we see profit, you'll get so and so amount." Fine...sit down with them, and sketch out the details. If you sound like you're going to hold them to it, you may not even get hired. They don't plan on making a profit. And most of them won't.

If you want to jump into the deep contractual workings of a micro budget film, and make sure you definitely receive a percentage. You go right ahead. To me, it's almost a waste of time. The day I start getting paid on a regular basis, is the day I'll start worrying about residuals and profit. But for Jonny's little zombie film...I honestly don't give a hoot about making money off it in the future.

I'M SORRY I PUT ALL THESE BACK-TO-BACK REPLIES IN SEPARATE POSTS.