No-Budget Career Path

And his twin joins in ;)

A bit of advice: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Despite what the internet has lead you to believe, the expression of an opinion is not necessarily an invitation for argument.

Everyone is free to express themselves with the written word as they see fit; just as the others in the world will see fit to evaluate the author's suitability for employment based on the said same. ;)
 
Despite what the internet has lead you to believe, the expression of an opinion is not necessarily an invitation for argument.

Everyone is free to express themselves with the written word as they see fit; just as the others in the world will see fit to evaluate the author's suitability for employment based on the said same. ;)

These next few lines are made in jest = smiley faces everywhere:

If you wanna be grammer police, you wanna make damn sure you don't make any mistakes yourself. So what you meant was "Despite what the internet has led you to believe," not "lead." :D


We might now want to get back to the topic of discussion, which is, how to become a successful filmmaker.

:)
 
Mad Hatter, it's possible. I don't have a complete theory yet, as I haven't done it myself.

Part of the theory goes like this:
1. Have a low cost vision
2. Learn how to actually make a story flow visually
3. At this low cost stage of our film lives, prioritize funds on an audio person (not equipment)
4. Write something that means something to you, and it will be real, and some people will get it.
5. Plan, plan and plan some more.
6. Shoot other crap in the meantime to verify that your planning is actually meaningful.
7. Time yourself on every shoot. See if you make time. Have a beer if you do.
8. Other stuff I can't think of right now

Point is, you can do it :)
 
These next few lines are made in jest = smiley faces everywhere:

If you wanna be grammer police, you wanna make damn sure you don't make any mistakes yourself. So what you meant was "Despite what the internet has led you to believe," not "lead." :D

;) Grammar. This was covered in that other thread, lol.

As to the content, I object to the phrase, but you didn't see me pointing out the errors now did you. :D I'm as shitty a typist as the next guy, as evidenced by the above.

The point is that I think the flippancy with which written communication is treated on the internet can be detrimental to people still trying to build communication habits that would otherwise help them in their careers later in life.

You won't find me lurking around pointing out every single little error, but you'll definitely see me defending the reason everyone should be able to recognize when they occur.
 
I believe it's important to understand this is a forum. Typo's happen, wrong words creep in and they happen a lot.

Posts get written, changed, re-written, typo's happen, words get missed, accidentally left in etc. In regards to worrying about grammar, spelling, incorrect words, a forum post isn't as important to me as say an important document for work.

Don't believe me, even those who believe that internet grammar flippancy is detrimental to their later in life career, just check this out:

communication is treat on the internet

It's not my cup of tea pulling people up on it and while I do care about it, it's just not that high on my priority list. In my opinion, you just have to accept a lower care factor on an internet forum post or you're just going to drive yourself mad and miss the forest (information that's being presented) for the trees. In the end, it's your choice.
 
It's not my cup of tea pulling people up on it and while I do care about it, it's just not that high on my priority list. In my opinion, you just have to accept a lower care factor on an internet forum post or you're just going to drive yourself mad and miss the forest (information that's being presented) for the trees. In the end, it's your choice.

Apparently you missed this the first time it was posted.

As to the content, I object to the phrase, but you didn't see me pointing out the errors now did you. :D I'm as shitty a typist as the next guy, as evidenced by the above.

Like I said, I fully acknowledge my own typographical failings. Which is why you don't see me calling out errors when I see them. In fact, I imagine you would be hard pressed to find many instances of me correcting anyone's grammar on this board in the <5 years I've been around here.

I still think the term "Grammar Nazi" is a childish idiom and seeing it in use makes me a sad panda. I'm not expecting perfection on an internet forum, no reasonable person is, but the use of the term "Grammar Nazi" tells me that the person using it may not recognize that there is a time and place for more careful use of speech, and that they could possibly have benefited from better instruction on how to receive constructive criticism as well.

To more directly answer trueindie, no I don't want to be the "Grammar Police," I like to think of my self as more of a caretaker. Grammar's Groundskeeper if you will.
 
You can decide whether or not the person (me) using the phrase "Grammar Nazi" falls into that category or description. Personally I don't get the issue with the phrase, then again, it may be a local idiom that has different connotations elsewhere, though I doubt it. I believe it's more of a take from the "Soup Nazi" name coined in Seinfeld.
 
Godwin's law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches. . . . There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. (from wiki)
 
Godwin's law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches. . . . There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. (from wiki)

ff5.jpg



:lol::lol::lol:
 
3. At this low cost stage of our film lives, prioritize funds on an audio person (not equipment).

As strange as it might seem to some (who haven't properly read what I've written in the past), I don't agree with this statement. Or rather, I would only agree with it under certain specific conditions, such as:

1. Audio is by far your weakest filmmaking skill and you can't find someone for little/no money who can match the quality of the rest of your filmmaking skills.
2. You are looking at a distribution channel which has an audio specification which you can't meet, while you are able to meet the other specs.

Prioritising one's funds on achieving decent audio is pointless if say the acting or camera work is terrible. You need to balance the skills and qualities of your films and in practise this almost always means audio should not be a financial priority. The reason why Alcove and I bang on about audio so much is because most lo/no budget film makers do not balance their filmmaking and the audio is usually of a lower or much lower standard than the rest of their film, which seriously detracts from the film and from whatever other filmmaking abilities they may have.

G
 
You can decide whether or not the person (me) using the phrase "Grammar Nazi" falls into that category or description. Personally I don't get the issue with the phrase, then again, it may be a local idiom that has different connotations elsewhere, though I doubt it. I believe it's more of a take from the "Soup Nazi" name coined in Seinfeld.

Well, at the risk of taking this discussion father afield than is appropriate, my objection to it has nothing to do with the use of the word Nazi, its connotations in any part of the world, or any of its context in history.

The reason that I do not think the terms use is appropriate here is that this isn't a board for a bunch of video gamers talking trash to each other. It's a board for all levels of production people from professional to amateur to discuss something we not only enjoy, but that some of us do professionally.

In specific, this thread was about career paths and career advice, which was given in the form of "communication skills are important, including the written word." The person giving said advice was then called a Grammar Nazi for his trouble. Which, imo, is inappropriate not only on a board where we are all supposed to be treating each other with a level of professionalism, but also as a way to respond to someone trying to help out a third party. We don't all have to be perfect little church kids or anything either, but it would be nice to think that the members here are a little more "career minded" in their word choice than elsewhere.

It's all about context. My buddies and I can sit around, have a couple beers, and starting verbally tearing each other apart all in good fun. Try that at any of our workplaces and we're out the door post haste. The point is that if you want to sling around terms like "Grammar Nazi," there are places on the internet where that level of discourse is both accepted and appropriate. Tossing it around in a thread where someone is looking for career help isn't one of them.
 
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Prioritising one's funds on achieving decent audio is pointless if say the acting or camera work is terrible. You need to balance the skills and qualities of your films and in practise this almost always means audio should not be a financial priority. The reason why Alcove and I bang on about audio so much is because most lo/no budget film makers do not balance their filmmaking and the audio is usually of a lower or much lower standard than the rest of their film, which seriously detracts from the film and from whatever other filmmaking abilities they may have.

G

APE I agree with you. I suppose I was speaking from my own experience and not in a general sort of way. I can tell you why I feel that way.

Here's what used to happen in my shoots, and I don't really mean to sound like a dick, this is just how I feel.

I'd look for crew, and somebody would be audio, and somebody would be DP. The audio guy would be anybody willing to wield a boom pole. No specific audio experience was necessary. I would insist that the DP meet with me at least twice before the shoot. Most of the time the DPs were busy doing other stuff in order pay for their lives and their rent and would meet with me once. I would realize at the meeting that s/he had not really had time to read through my script, and they were more interested in shooting one part of the scene as opposed to all the other little "unimportant" scenes, such as, when someone walks into a room, nurses a drink, or some other 'cut to' scene. The DP would insist that I concentrate on a scene, and make it great, and I would insist that I wanted to compromise on the scene and finish the entire shoot.

So moving on, if something didn't look right during the shoot, or if the acting wasn't satisfactory, I could do multiple takes, until I was either satisfied, or decided I'd just have to wrap that scene, as lunch was near, and I had lots of other scenes to shoot before dinner. Obviously lots of other mistakes would happen along the way. I would come home look at the footage and discover all these mistakes. But that is also the first time I'd listen to the audio. And that's when I would discover that during a perfect take, something went wrong with the audio, and I was never notified during the shoot. Since I was happy with the scene visually, I'd move on. But the scene would be worthless since the corresponding audio had the microphone bumping against the ceiling, etc. And whoever was the audio guy would never notify me. And I would forget during the euphoria of the shoot to ask the audio guy if everything went well (this is on me).

Sometimes the audio would be fine, sometimes it would be bad. There was just no consistency. And also, if the audio was good, it was never really that good.

Anyway, this is getting long. The point of my story is that I realize that I don't pay people. I therefore accept, that people who volunteer have their own lives, and don't go to bed thinking about my film. So I like to have as much control over the shoot as possible, and I don't relinquish control to anybody for any reason, as every time I do that, I run over time. I run over time as the DPs do their experiments on my shoot. They haven't really thought through their idea because they were busy doing other things until they came to the set. And on set they suddenly get all artistic and tell me how they think a scene should be shot and how many camera angles I need, and how I need to adjust lights for every angle. They seem oblivious to the fact that I have three other scenes to shoot before lunch. So, what I've done is I've essentially gotten rid of DPs in my shoot. There is only one real DP friend I have who sometimes helps me shoot. He's a busy guy and I don't always get him. But I like working with him, because once I explain what I want, he goes along. He gives me his input, and I take what I like and if I say no to something, he doesn't take it personally. So I find it easy to work with him.

Now, (holy moly this is getting long), this is a kind of control I cannot exert with audio. I have no control over it. Some people might be able to do this, but I personally cannot concentrate on the visuals and then also listen to audio to make sure that is perfect. At least at this moment, I cannot do it. I generally budget my films. A lot of people want to show up on my shoots. And I don't mind. On any given shoot there are 10 to 15 people on my set. I feed all these people coffee, lunch, afternoon sandwiches whatever. I end up spending at least around $300 on a shoot. Some people may think this is stupid, but I enjoy the interaction, and a bustling set. So it's really for my own personal gratification. And I love it, and enjoy it immensely :).

In some of my recent shoots, I decided to spend on an audio guy, just to relieve my brain of the stress and the excruciating pain audio was causing deep inside my head. And I hired this dude for $150. I wanted to conduct a test of shooting actors from a distance, and I wanted to see how the audio would work in that scene. This dude was fantastic. It was unbelievable. He had lavs, booms everything going, 6 or 8 (can't remember) separate inputs. The entire time I was only concentrating on visuals and so many other things were going wrong outside with the sunlight and the clouds and even the occasional drizzle, not to mention traffic noise and police sirens. And when I got back to my computer, the best thing about the shoot was the audio.

Anyway. My point about audio is that, yes, you are correct. I suck at it. I cannot do both audio and video, and I need someone who really is an audio guy, who comes up and whispers to me as I'm rejoicing over how happy I am with a take, that I need to redo it because something went wrong with the audio. A real audio guy will do that to you. Non-real audio people will keep quiet and you'll discover the disaster on your computer after the shoot is over. I'd rather that I'm apprised of this during the shoot.

Oh my lord this is long. Now I have to read through all this before I hit submit to keep the grammar police at bay. :D

So APE, what I was really trying to say is that for someone like me, since audio is not my strong suit, I'd rather concentrate on developing skills that I can exert more control over, and leave audio to someone who really loves it, has been doing it for a long time, and is so passionate about it, that they won't let me make a mistake.

Apologies for the long and directionless post. It's not personal. If you're a DP, don't take offense. Just consider it to be how the other side thinks. It's never personal. All we all want to do is make a good film.

Cheers,
Aveek

Edit: Also, before a shoot, if I get the chance, I do a rehearsal with the actors. Almost every time, I find that actors come to the set unprepared for their lines. So if it's complicated and has a lot of dialog, I insist on a rehearsal. That way I get the lines drilled into their heads before the day of the shoot. That way actors know exactly what I want and I spend less time with the actors while all the other crew stands around during the day of the shoot, while I talk with the actors. This has another major benefit. I get to correct my script for inauthentic sounding dialog. And since the actor becomes more familiar with the character, s/he can improvise in a more realistic way. Again, this is not personal. If you are an actor who always knows his/her lines, I hope I get the chance to one day work with you.
 
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@David. You win. Moving on.

@Trueindie. You summed up the exact issue with a lot of no budget filmmaking. It doesn't happen on every set, but it does happen.
 
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