Music With Lyrics

[L Trick]

I've always had trouble getting my mind around splicing music with film. I tend to over-think things to a flaw, but what if there is a word said in the song that doesn't resonate with the themes in the scene?

When I think of music in film, It is a wordless rhythm that follows the tone of the movie; In fact, many of my favorite movies have consisted of a soundtrack with exclusively classical music.

But I would like to put songs with lyrics in the narrative, which would have to be less volume than a wordless song. It's difficult for me to accept music in my narrative, because you focus on the song, when in reality, the audience ignores it as background thunder, flowing with the image (if done right).

So, what I'm mainly asking: Are there select times where music with lyrics should be played, like tracking shots with no dialogue, etc? Or can they flow, even in scenes with dialogue, if put below the volume of the characters?

 

[MetalRenard]

This, my friend, is why you need a dedicated composer.
The problem you describe there would not happen if you had a composer working for you as
A) A song could be extensively edited to fit however you need it to be
B) You could still have great music as if you selected a song yourself AND it would not only support your film directly by being appropriate in theme, but also have lyrics if and when you need them.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Watch any Wes Anderson film, especially Rushmore, for beautiful examples of how to mix music that has lyrics with film.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Watch any Wes Anderson film, especially Rushmore, for beautiful examples of how to mix music that has lyrics with film.

I'm not sure this is a good example. Although Rushmore proves it can be done, we're talking about one of the top re-recording mixers in the world, working in arguably the best audio post facility in the world and with one of the world's most experienced and best audio post teams. So unless the OP already has 4 Oscars for film sound mixing and a $100m audio post facility at their disposal, I'm not sure if Rushmore is a particularly good example.

So, what I'm mainly asking: Are there select times where music with lyrics should be played, like tracking shots with no dialogue, etc? Or can they flow, even in scenes with dialogue, if put below the volume of the characters?

The biggest problem is going to be the lyrics fighting with the dialogue and standing any chance of hearing both clearly at the same time. So obviously having music with lyrics when there is no dialogue would be a sensible choice. If you want to have both lyrics and dialogue you'll need a good sound designer and a very good re-recording mixer. Lyrics can even clash with a lot of sound FX, so again a good sound designer and mixer are essential.

The problem you describe there would not happen if you had a composer working for you ...

Although I agree that having a dedicated experienced composer is always a good idea, I do not agree that the problem "would not happen if you had a composer"! In the example of music with lyrics during dialogue (or possibly other sound), the composer can only help indirectly, by providing the re-recording mixer with splits.

G

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

My theory would be if you want to learn how to paint, look at a Rembrandt. Wes Anderson and Randall Poster are probably the best ever at utilizing soundtrack in film (though Moonrise Kingdom not their best effort). They are an example that it CAN be done, flawlessly. They are also an example of what it can bring to a film. The soundtrack takes Rushmore from a good film to a really great film.

Though you'll note, of course, it tends to be used when there is no dialogue or fades down to way in the background (as it should be) when there is dialogue.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

My theory would be if you want to learn how to paint, look at a Rembrandt.

I agree entirely with your basic premise of what can be done and of what a soundtrack can contribute to a film but I'm not so keen on your analogies. We can all go out and spend a few hundred dollars on the required raw materials and tools and then there's nothing stopping us, apart from our skill and talent, from painting a masterpiece like Rembrandt. But that's not true of a great soundtrack because the tools and raw materials are going to cost millions and without the tools and raw materials, skill and talent are going to be severely compromised. A better analogy would be: "If you want to learn how to drive a car then look at Michael Schumacher". This analogy is better because much of what you would learn from watching Michael Schumacher would be of no use unless you owned $40m worth of formula 1 race car and had access to a race circuit. Michael Schumacher has proven that you can corner a car at 180mph but that's not such a good example to try and follow when driving your Ford Focus to the shopping mall!

I'm not saying that micro-budget and no budget filmmakers shouldn't be aware of what's possible, far from it. But in general I find that indy filmmakers lack objectivity and are highly unrealistic about what is possible in practice when it comes to sound.

G

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Right.. and you can't make a competent film visually without an Alexa and million dollar color correction budget.... Sure you can. It will have a lot of challenges, there are certainly things you won't be able to do as well, but you can do a perfectly competent job with a $3K camera, After Effects, and a lot of time. Assuming you have some talent and know what you're doing.

The exact same is true of sound (and music). If you care about it and find a competent person to do it, the barriers in 2012 are actually very very low budgetwise. Is a 25 year old with Pro Tools going to do AS good a job as a pro audio post house, probably not, but if they are talented and dedicated they can do a very competent job in their bedroom on a laptop.

My Wes Anderson reference is about WHEN to use musc, HOW to use music. The technical aspects really aren't that difficult for a competent audio person.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

If you care about it and find a competent person to do it, the barriers in 2012 are actually very very low budgetwise. Is a 25 year old with Pro Tools going to do AS good a job as a pro audio post house, probably not, but if they are talented and dedicated they can do a very competent job in their bedroom on a laptop.

You are so wrong on this statement I don't even know where to start! You are joking right, you do know really that the 25 year old doesn't stand a hope in hell of doing a competent job on a laptop?

G

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

You are so wrong on this statement I don't even know where to start! You are joking right, you do know really that the 25 year old doesn't stand a hope in hell of doing a competent job on a laptop?

G

No, I don't know that. Is he going to do a flawless 5.1 surround mix, no he's not. However, if he's talented and he puts in the hours he can create a soundscape that adds to and doesn't detract from the overall quality of the film... absolutely he can. I don't mean some filmmaker who just got his copy of Sonar, I mean a real audio guy with several years of experience, some talent, and about $5K worth of gear. That's really all you need (besides actually caring about it) to create a decent end result.

That a filmmaker even cares enough about sound to turn it over to an audio post guy on any level and actually put in the hours to attempt to do a good job puts you in the top 5% of micro budget filmmakers.

 

[JoshL]

Point the 1st: I of course agree with MetalRenard...you should always have a composer That said, there is a lot to be said for using songs with lyrics in addition to score. If you get rights to a song by <reasonably popular band>, fans of that band will love hearing it in your movie, and fans of your movie might discover a new band they like. There's a reason that Kevin Smith spent most of his budget on Clerks licensing music. Most films have pop songs (using pop as opposed to orchestral, not as a description of style), and soundtrack albums that are compilations of bands are always more popular than score albums. That said, if you get a good band and a good composer, you can even weave some of the melodic ideas from the song into the rest of the score, making it all the more cohesive.

Point the 2nd: I agree with Gonzo; Wes Anderson is a good example to learn how to use pop music. And just because it is more difficult to mix (which I totally agree with AudioPostExpert on, and being able to get a seperated vocal/instrumental mix would make it so much easier in lots of ways) doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. You learn by trying. And failing. Then trying again. I'd also point out, for how-not-to do it, the first Resident Evil movie. The military guys crash into the house, set to a blaring Marilyn Manson song. Going for badass, okay, cool. Then they start talking and the music volume doesn't change. It's competing for space rather than making room. Awful, awful scene that could have worked out so much better.

Point the 3rd: lyrical content. One of the big differences between score and pop music: a scene in a film (and thus the score) is a complex mix of shifting moods and emotions. A pop song is (I'm over simplifying here) about ONE. Understanding that will help you use it. Say you have a romantic song, and the scene is a couple arguing and then making up. If the song comes in at the end, it makes more sense. If it plays during the argument, not only is the mood dissonant, but it gives away the fact that everything will be okay. On the other end of the spectrum, a happy song played over a disturbing scene is still dissonant, but that dissonance can make the scene MORE uncomfortable.

That said, you don't want the lyrical content to match the movie exactly. If the singer says something about opening a door, and then a door opens on screen, it'll look cheesy and heavy handed. Hell, I don't even like that in music videos. But a heavy metal song about cthulu while a monster chases someone through the woods, that can work. I believe that in a horror film at least one death and/or action scene should be set to pop music rather than score (and I'm speaking as a composer here). It's a style I happen to like.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, music with lyrics can fit in a film, in all sorts of places. It's not easy to do well, but when it is done well, it's great. Experiment with it. Learn by doing!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

No, I don't know that. Is he going to do a flawless 5.1 surround mix, no he's not. However, if he's talented and he puts in the hours he can create a soundscape that adds to and doesn't detract from the overall quality of the film... absolutely he can. I don't mean some filmmaker who just got his copy of Sonar, I mean a real audio guy with several years of experience, some talent, and about $5K worth of gear. That's really all you need (besides actually caring about it) to create a decent end result.

Oh dear, someone should tell all the great film directors that they are literally spending millions on expensive audio post facilities when they could just hire a guy with $5k or equipment in his bedroom. Why do you think that on most professional films there is a team of 10-70 highly paid audio post professionals rather than just one guy in his bedroom? A guy in his bedroom with $5k of gear is going to have absolutely no idea whatsoever of what the film will sound like in a cinema and so the chances of him creating "a decent end result" are slim to zero, regardless of his experience. It doesn't matter how much talent, experience or dedication you've got, if you don't have the equipment to hear what you're doing, you can't do a decent job.

G

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

OK, fair enough then, we should just all give up because we have no hope of creating anything that anybody will want to watch without $5 million worth of post work. Whew... time to shut the board down I guess.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

OK, fair enough then, we should just all give up because we have no hope of creating anything that anybody will want to watch without $5 million worth of post work. Whew... time to shut the board down I guess.

Rushmore, your example, had a music and sound budget of probably well over $1m and was done in $100m dollar facility. If you are willing to compromise and only go for decent or competent quality rather than world class quality there are ways it can be done with a massively smaller budget but NOT by some guy in a bedroom with $5k of gear!

With all due respect, you are proving my earlier statement: "But in general I find that indy filmmakers lack objectivity and are highly unrealistic about what is possible in practice when it comes to sound."

And just because it is more difficult to mix ... doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. You learn by trying. And failing. Then trying again. I'd also point out, for how-not-to do it, the first Resident Evil movie. The military guys crash into the house, set to a blaring Marilyn Manson song. Going for badass, okay, cool. Then they start talking and the music volume doesn't change. It's competing for space rather than making room. Awful, awful scene that could have worked out so much better.

This is kind of my point, how do you learn by trying and failing and trying again? You mix a film in your bedroom or edit suite and it sounds terrible when played back in a cinema (say during a film festival), so how do you go back and try it again, you're just going to get the same results again and learn nothing except that you can't mix a film in a bedroom or edit suite. If it were possible to learn how to do it in an edit suite or bedroom don't you think that someone in the industry over the last 80 years would have figured it out by now, instead of spending millions building audio post facilities? Your example (Resident Evil) proves that even a highly experienced professional re-recording mixer in a multi-million dollar audio post facility can get it wrong, how is an indy filmmaker going to do better?

Indy filmmakers generally seem to have a good understanding of the limitations of their budget when it comes to the visuals and have learnt to avoid what they can't do, a 3 hour 3D CGI rich blockbuster like Avatar, for example. But, for whatever reason, when it comes to sound, most seem to have virtually no idea of the limitations of their budget or what's possible and many don't even seem to know the difference between good, poor or competent sound. I find this very strange!!!

G

 

[mlesemann]

Do you just enjoy being argumentative? Or are you hoping that the filmmakers on here someday find the money to hire you?

I'm just not sure what the point is of always telling people why they can't do things up to your standards, rather than trying to help people do things as well as they can.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Do you just enjoy being argumentative? Or are you hoping that the filmmakers on here someday find the money to hire you?

I'm just not sure what the point is of always telling people why they can't do things up to your standards, rather than trying to help people do things as well as they can.

My standards are irrelevant and to be honest your post is just insulting. If anyone here aspires to professional quality filmmaking or screening their work in a competitive marketplace (IE. a cinema), they have no choice but to adhere to the standards expected by the industry and by the audiences.

I have and I will continue to "help people do things as well as they can" but some things just cannot be done by an amateur without the correct facilities and mixing sound for theatrical use is one of them.

G

 

[mlesemann]

No insult intended, it's an honest question. I've been reading these exchanges for months without saying anything, and this is the conclusion that I drew.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

You are not going to attempt everything they would attempt, you are not going to have the layers of sound they would have... It's likely to take longer.... uh... duh...

However, the idea that a competent sound guy can't successfully mix music with dialogue, Foley, etc... without a $1500 an hour studio and 25 assistants is just ludicrous. Is lit likely to win any academy awards, probably not, but most audiences without a side by side listening comparison would never know the difference IF he knows what he's doing and IF he has the time to give it his best shot.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

No insult intended, it's an honest question. I've been reading these exchanges for months without saying anything, and this is the conclusion that I drew.

I have posted some information and received replies saying how useful it's been. I've deliberately used a nickname on this forum rather than my real name so that I could speak my mind and give unbiased opinion and advice without having to blow smoke up people's a$$s as I would with clients or potential clients.

Let me give you an analogy, perhaps that will help put this into context. Let's say someone posts a question on this forum, along the lines of:

"I want to make a feature from a screenplay I've got that's very similar to Lord of the Rings, using CGI, green screen, etc. Just like they did on LOTR. I've got a $500 laptop and a budget of $5k. Now obviously it doesn't need to look as good as LOTR but it does need to look decent and competent. How do I do it and what do I need to buy?"

Who here could give me practical advice on how to make this film? Pretty much anyone with any knowledge of filmmaking would know that you don't necessarily have to spend $350m to make a serious film like this but no matter how many corners you cut, you can't hope for anything even vaguely decent with just a laptop and $5k. Most reading this question would think it so absurd that they'd assume I'm either a complete novice, a troll or both. This is because most indy filmmakers have an idea of the issues and difficulty of creating convincing images. The best advice anyone could give would be to explain why they should drop the idea entirely or to approach it from a different angle by getting producer who knows what they are doing involved and attract a more reasonable budget.

Unfortunately, quite a few of the questions on this forum, looking at it from an audio point of view, are very similar to this hypothetical question above. Many on this forum seem quite knowledgeable, astute and practical when it comes to what types of films and shots fall outside their ability/resources or in finding the resources if it's essential to their film. What surprises me is that in general, many don't appear to anywhere near this same level of knowledge or practicality when it comes to sound. That's why so many films get rejected for problems with the sound.

You are not going to attempt everything they would attempt, you are not going to have the layers of sound they would have... It's likely to take longer.... uh... duh...

If it takes 8-10 highly equipped and experienced audio professionals 2-3 months to do the audio post for an average feature length drama, how long do you give your single sound guy in his bedroom? ....duh!

However, the idea that a competent sound guy can't successfully mix music with dialogue, Foley, etc... without a $1500 an hour studio and 25 assistants is just ludicrous. Is lit likely to win any academy awards, probably not, but most audiences without a side by side listening comparison would never know the difference IF he knows what he's doing and IF he has the time to give it his best shot.

I never said you needed a mix room costing $1,500 an hour or that the re-recording mixer needs 25 assistants are you trolling now?

Even if he knows what he's doing and has the time to give it his best shot, how can he give it his best shot if he has no idea what it's going to sound like? Would Rembrandt paint a masterpiece or even a competent picture if you blindfolded him?

I'm glad you have more knowledge and understanding of what an audience hears than a 20 year audio professional. Honestly, I wish you the best of luck together with your guy with the $5k bedroom studio, IMHO, you're going to need it.

G

 

[wheatgrinder]

For my current project I purposely wrote scenes that would use "pop" music, local bands only with rights etc. Though it might not be real world realistic, I have a bar scene where a live band is playing, this gives me a great excuse to have the music playing back. The play back of the music overlaps other action. No dialogue, though I do show people talking, its part of the story that you don't KNOW what they are talking about.. the visuals tell it anyway.

Of course the BAND playing is actually the band that recorded the song and I have them lip syncing in the video. I have another scene where action is set to a song.. again the story supports it and the script is crafted so that it makes sense.. now, when I finally release this gem, you can tell me if I'm off the mark!

 

[wheatgrinder]

Watched Dazed and Confused the other night.. they did a lot of pop music in the score, driving around in cars etc.. seems to work mostly. Some one turns up the radio and boom, its coming through on the movie in full stereo (not worldized)