Lighting equipment and techniques. (Start shooting this Monday)

[gibbo]

Hi guys I'm really sorry about making another thread like this straight after the previous one.

It's just that I'm starting shooting a short documentary on Monday and I just wanted to get some basic questions cleared up so it will be the best it can be! I'm in Australia so the names of some products might be different.

I'll number the questions to make it easier to read!

1)Foamcore: I went into an office supply store, Office Works, to ask for foamcore. What they showed me wasn't called foamcore, I can't remember what it was called but I'm fairly certain it's the same thing. It looked similar to the images of Foamcore I've googled but the surfaces were slightly glossy.

Would this matter?
I'm concerned mainly about the Black piece as I plan to use subtractive lighting (blocking eye shadows from overhead lights etc)

2)If I have two or more light sources on the shoot will it bugger up my white balance? EG: I'm indoors in a Gym and there is light coming through the windows from the sun, lights in the roof of the gym and an LED light block that that I'm using for Key, and they are all different temperatures.

Will they all combine into one different colour temperature so I can set my white balance to that new general temperature?

3)Expanding from that previous question, I really want to use 1 strong key light only, on top of the other lights on the location, not quite high contrast/low key style but just enough so I can underexpose the scene a bit and have the Key source at a more "proper" exposure to make it look a bit moody. I've already got a Z96 led block light so I was wondering if this would suffice or would it be better to get a clamp light or something? I really like the softer look of china balls but this project I want a more contrasty feel.

4) About the clamp lights or other lights like flood lights or something, do I need to worry about which colour temp light bulb I use in them or can I just get any colour and adjust my white balance?

Thanks in advance!

 

[knightly]

1) this stuff: http://www.foamcoreheaven.com/

2) White balance to the key light, then correct the rest of them with gels... if you can't correct one of them (sunlight for instance), white balance to the sunlight and gel the rest to match that... once you do this a few times, you'll start to get annoyed with how flat your image looks -- at that point, I always advise you set your camera to either the indoor or outdoor preset, then adjust your lighting with gels to match the look you're going for... embracing the differences in color temperature.

For instance. If you let the sunlight play on a character's shoulders as a rim light, you can key from the other side with a tungsten light... If you use the outdoor preset, the shoulder becomes white and the key very orange... you can put "CTB" gels in front of the key light to bring it closer to the sunlight's color while still leaving a bit of the interior orange feel to the light that lets the audience know there's an interior light shining on the subject... or if you WB to the interior, the shoulder turns a bit blue suggesting proximity to a window for the viewer.

Revel in the color and the shadows! You're painting with light (great book titled that as well).

3) The LED panel will be overpowered by the ambient lighting (most likely). I use at least a 500watt open face light with diffusion gels to soften the light a bit when lighting in an area that already has light in it. The background will tend to be too bright without it and you'll most likely want some tonal separation between the two ( chiaroscuro ).

I don't tend to use ambient lights unless I'm forced to... even then, I tend to bring in enough light to overwhelm the ambient so I can do what I want with the scene. The ambient lights then become in frame practicals and the actual illumination on the subject and the background is chosen by me with my lighting gear.

This all sounds really spendy, but you can do this with halogen worklights with tall stands (7-8' if possible) and barndoors (http://www.coollights.biz has free patterns for making your own). So you're now talking about US$40-US$50 / light rather than US$150. The gels are relatively cheap for singles, or you can get a pack with most of what you'll need (I use http://www.filmtools.com). Dimmers can be had for cheap by buying "router speed controllers" from http://www.harborfreighttools.com

Hopefully, that's a bit to look at to get started Eventually, you'll develop the skill to be let down by these lights and need to spend more to move up past them. When I was still using clamp lights, I found myself using 4 or 5 of them on the key side of my actors with the maximum wattage bulb in them I could safely use in each... 150w x 4 = 600w of light... at $50/light, the $150 650w Arri knockoff is a great cost savings at 3/4 the cost... plus it comes with a nice tall stand.

Experiment a bit and figure out what works and what doesn't... sit a friend down in a chair in the location, setup the camera and bring a couple of lights... see what works and doesn't... Find reference images you want to replicate, then replicate them (we can help you dissect the lighting in the reference shots here). Play -- have fun

 

[gibbo]

Thanks Knightly! You are my saviour....

My Knightly in shining armour (Sorry, I had to, i'll make a great dad one day)

1) this stuff: http://www.foamcoreheaven.com/

Yep pretty sure it's the same stuff... I was just a bit concerned about the black being a touch glossy on the surface.

2) White balance to the key light, then correct the rest of them with gels... if you can't correct one of them (sunlight for instance), white balance to the sunlight and gel the rest to match that... once you do this a few times, you'll start to get annoyed with how flat your image looks -- at that point, I always advise you set your camera to either the indoor or outdoor preset, then adjust your lighting with gels to match the look you're going for... embracing the differences in color temperature.

Great advice, thanks.

What would happen if I just placed a large white piece of foam core where the talent will be sitting making sure the different light sources all hit that, take a picture of that complete surface (I have a DSLR, t3i) and set that picture to my custom white balance?

I definitely want to learn about proper lighting techniques, I just don't have time to do this before monday.

I guess my other option is to just use the reflectors of what ever light they have available as Key/fill

For instance. If you let the sunlight play on a character's shoulders as a rim light, you can key from the other side with a tungsten light... If you use the outdoor preset, the shoulder becomes white and the key very orange... you can put "CTB" gels in front of the key light to bring it closer to the sunlight's color while still leaving a bit of the interior orange feel to the light that lets the audience know there's an interior light shining on the subject... or if you WB to the interior, the shoulder turns a bit blue suggesting proximity to a window for the viewer.

Thanks, I'm still trying to get a handle on colour temperature...

Revel in the color and the shadows! You're painting with light (great book titled that as well).

Speaking of which, is that a good book for learning about lighting? Are there a couple more you can suggest?

3) The LED panel will be overpowered by the ambient lighting (most likely). I use at least a 500watt open face light with diffusion gels to soften the light a bit when lighting in an area that already has light in it. The background will tend to be too bright without it and you'll most likely want some tonal separation between the two ( chiaroscuro ).

Hmm OK.

What about if I turn off all the indoors lights and just have the sunlight coming through the windows and use the LED as a Key? I would say that shooting at f2.8, 800 ISO, 1/50 shutter speed would leave me about a stop or at the most 2 stops underexposed, which would suit the mood perfectly.

But then I have to conquer the high shutter shots I want to do (up to 1/300 of a second for action shots)

I don't tend to use ambient lights unless I'm forced to... even then, I tend to bring in enough light to overwhelm the ambient so I can do what I want with the scene. The ambient lights then become in frame practicals and the actual illumination on the subject and the background is chosen by me with my lighting gear.

This all sounds really spendy, but you can do this with halogen worklights with tall stands (7-8' if possible) and barndoors (http://www.coollights.biz has free patterns for making your own). So you're now talking about US$40-US$50 / light rather than US$150. The gels are relatively cheap for singles, or you can get a pack with most of what you'll need (I use http://www.filmtools.com). Dimmers can be had for cheap by buying "router speed controllers" from http://www.harborfreighttools.com

Hopefully, that's a bit to look at to get started Eventually, you'll develop the skill to be let down by these lights and need to spend more to move up past them. When I was still using clamp lights, I found myself using 4 or 5 of them on the key side of my actors with the maximum wattage bulb in them I could safely use in each... 150w x 4 = 600w of light... at $50/light, the $150 650w Arri knockoff is a great cost savings at 3/4 the cost... plus it comes with a nice tall stand.

Experiment a bit and figure out what works and what doesn't... sit a friend down in a chair in the location, setup the camera and bring a couple of lights... see what works and doesn't... Find reference images you want to replicate, then replicate them (we can help you dissect the lighting in the reference shots here). Play -- have fun

Excellent! I love DIY stuff and cheap knock offs.

Thanks so much for your input!

 

[knightly]

There really aren't too many books on lighting for film from an art perspective... much of what you'll find read more like technical references. I did that vast majority of my learning on set and online. Learn the 3-point lighting system, you'll use some form of it 90% of the time... then move to the 2 other art forms that have used lighting as the major part of their art... painting and photography.

These two, you'll find a gajillion resources for the use of light! Quick google searches for portrait lighting or use of light in painting will get you fantastic results... flip that over to the images search and you can pick and choose images that fit your fancy, then figure out what the light sources are in those images. This really is a case of having to copy others and DO THE ACT to be able to learn it... you're pointing invisible waves of photonic energy and trying to concept how it will "become" when it hits your subjects and objects... strong knowledge of that manifestation only comes through practice and testing different setups. Emulate other shots that you think are cool, dissect them, figure them out.

As for color, I'm not talking about color temperature. Sunlight is blue, indoor light is orange, fluorescent light is green. That's all you need to know for the most part.

When you look at an image, I trust that you've seen enough reference footage to be able to say "that doesn't look convincing" -- THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL SKILL! The rest can be figured out from there, but not settling for just any image is something that so many beginners just brush past to get to the finish line. Shot composition and lighting are the biggies in cinematography, everything else is technical/craft rather than art. You need both here, but the craft can be learned by doing a quick search online (even just on this forum).

Above and beyond that, knowing that light travels from a source to a destination works 2 ways... firstly and most obviously, it allows you to know that when you point a light at something, the invisible waves will resolve when they encounter an object, then either be reflected, refracted or blocked (or some combination thereof). The object will also alter the light.

The less obvious implication is that if you see that something is illuminated, your subconscious assumes that it's because there's a light shining somewhere, whether you can see it or not. In the case of film, the light should have a convincing source so the audience will make assumptions subconsciously about the world off screen... causing them to buy into the reality you're trying to create.

That is the fundamental part that I was missing in my lighting for so long was the effect on the audience. I saw it as a mere function of allowing the camera to have light to gather and resolve (after being reflected off of the things in front of the lens). The film thing is that we're recreating a reality that only exists in the frame... so to link that frame to the rest of the world is necessary to "sell" that reality.

EVERY piece of pro gear began its life as a DIY project made to solve a specific problem by some key grip on a film set... there's no reason we can't do that too. Never let the nay sayers tell you otherwise. Learn building and manufacturing skills -- they will serve you well where so many others will fall down on the job with no solution to a problem... be a solution, not a problem.

 

[jax_rox]

That is the fundamental part that I was missing in my lighting for so long was the effect on the audience. I saw it as a mere function of allowing the camera to have light to gather and resolve

Exactly. Too many beginners are afraid of lighting and see it simply as a way of getting an exposure. There's a whole art form to lighting and a major difference between simply getting an exposure and shooting an interesting and believable shot.

 

[gibbo]

Thanks again so much for the replies guys! I'm learning heaps off these forums.

There really aren't too many books on lighting for film from an art perspective... much of what you'll find read more like technical references. I did that vast majority of my learning on set and online. Learn the 3-point lighting system, you'll use some form of it 90% of the time... then move to the 2 other art forms that have used lighting as the major part of their art... painting and photography.

These two, you'll find a gajillion resources for the use of light! Quick google searches for portrait lighting or use of light in painting will get you fantastic results... flip that over to the images search and you can pick and choose images that fit your fancy, then figure out what the light sources are in those images. This really is a case of having to copy others and DO THE ACT to be able to learn it... you're pointing invisible waves of photonic energy and trying to concept how it will "become" when it hits your subjects and objects... strong knowledge of that manifestation only comes through practice and testing different setups. Emulate other shots that you think are cool, dissect them, figure them out.

I don't really like the 3 point system for some reason, it looks too fake or something... but I know that I can't just ignore it, even if I don't like it myself I need to learn it! I know basically that a nice backlight will separate the subject from the background and make it appear to have more depth.

I do love chiaroscuro style... and I am also very fond of 1 strong Key (Noir style) and don't mind Key and Backlight used together. I guess I love the contrasts in light... for me having something completely and evenly lit at all times is intrusive. That said, I know I need to learn as much about all lighting techniques as I can. Gotta learn the rules to break 'em!

I actually really love some of the shots in Black Swan that they used a china ball only (outside street shots) but I guess the street lights (practicals?) would have created fill/backlight in that case anyway.

As for color, I'm not talking about color temperature. Sunlight is blue, indoor light is orange, fluorescent light is green. That's all you need to know for the most part.

Yes, thanks for that! I'm more confused about colour temperature than anything. Sunlight is blue (weird!) so that's something that does not change. Easy, that's why people orange gel the windows sometimes.

But with fluro lights, I bought one the other day for my living room that was 5200k, which is daylight, right? It was this style:

And the indoor light situation confuses me more because surely there are too many different types of bulbs too say that it is all orange? Unless you strictly mean the "normal" style of light bulb, like these:

Because my place has these light bulbs indoors too:

And they are what, Fluorescent? So they're green. And I'm sure of seen these with differnt temperatures too, even throughout my place in different rooms the colour of them look different.

When you look at an image, I trust that you've seen enough reference footage to be able to say "that doesn't look convincing" -- THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL SKILL!

You mean using the standard 3 point set up as a reference? Assuming it's lit well.

I actually said that to myself a few times recently while watching movies. The were a few times while watching movies with scenes at night time and the character were in the bush or something and there was a quite strong light coming from nowhere, I notice this in a lot of different movies all the time.

Also when you can see the reflection of the lights on the characters foreheads which I see in every second movie.

The rest can be figured out from there, but not settling for just any image is something that so many beginners just brush past to get to the finish line. Shot composition and lighting are the biggies in cinematography, everything else is technical/craft rather than art. You need both here, but the craft can be learned by doing a quick search online (even just on this forum).

I try to be very very aware of composition at all times.

I'm planning a silly little short film in my place after this shirt Doco is done and I must admit, as far as light's concerned, I've considered just pointing and shooting and hope for the best. I was just thinking about using the practical overhead lights on the roof and getting some foam core and reflecting light from underneath so there are no shadows around the eyes. But now I'm considering diffusing that roof light with the diffusion part of the reflector (or black foamcore overhead, and adding a backlight and a soft key

But that's another story to tell in the not so distant future!

Above and beyond that, knowing that light travels from a source to a destination works 2 ways... firstly and most obviously, it allows you to know that when you point a light at something, the invisible waves will resolve when they encounter an object, then either be reflected, refracted or blocked (or some combination thereof). The object will also alter the light.

The less obvious implication is that if you see that something is illuminated, your subconscious assumes that it's because there's a light shining somewhere, whether you can see it or not. In the case of film, the light should have a convincing source so the audience will make assumptions subconsciously about the world off screen... causing them to buy into the reality you're trying to create.

That is the fundamental part that I was missing in my lighting for so long was the effect on the audience. I saw it as a mere function of allowing the camera to have light to gather and resolve (after being reflected off of the things in front of the lens). The film thing is that we're recreating a reality that only exists in the frame... so to link that frame to the rest of the world is necessary to "sell" that reality.

I never really thought about lighting in this way... but it makes sense.....

EVERY piece of pro gear began its life as a DIY project made to solve a specific problem by some key grip on a film set... there's no reason we can't do that too. Never let the nay sayers tell you otherwise. Learn building and manufacturing skills -- they will serve you well where so many others will fall down on the job with no solution to a problem... be a solution, not a problem.

I enjoy improvising and coming up with solutions and I enjoy DIY as well, I guess that's a good sign! I made a boom pole today for my Rode Videomic pro with a 3/8 inch bolt and a painters pole, $8 Vs. the $90 they wanted for there version! It works OK too as long as it's held steady.

Exactly. Too many beginners are afraid of lighting and see it simply as a way of getting an exposure. There's a whole art form to lighting and a major difference between simply getting an exposure and shooting an interesting and believable shot.

I'm afraid of lighting! I'll admit it! haha... But it's just because I don't know about it that's all and it's very intimidating.

But when I learn more about it I can see myself enjoying it.

 

[knightly]

With regards to your apprehensions of the 3-point system... the textbook examples SCREAM artificial... but with some tweaking, you can get something like these:


(Camera Op: Nate Haustein; Production: Paperclip; Model: Iris Huber)
which contains no natural or ambient light at all... this is lit with a soft fluo box frame right as key, filled with a Diffused 2K fresnel on flood across the room screen left and the slightest hint of blue "sunlight" on her frame-left shoulder to simulate the light hitting her from the open window in the background. The room lights were off for this shot... we lit the whole thing ourselves. (it's a bit yellow, which we'll be cc'ing out later -- due to misunderstandings between DP and myself, which were swiftly worked out).


(Photographer: Randy Baranczeck; Production: Paperclip; Model: Iris Huber)
This uses sunlight as a frame right rim, 1K diffused frame left as a soft warm key and a bounce redirecting the sunlight back at her as fill, also frame left.

Both relatively natural looking, both standard 3-point setups, Key, Fill, Rim. It's how you apply them and how you motivate the lights (where it seems to be coming from) that makes it look real or artificial.

 

[gibbo]

With regards to your apprehensions of the 3-point system... the textbook examples SCREAM artificial... but with some tweaking, you can get something like these:


(Camera Op: Nate Haustein; Production: Paperclip; Model: Iris Huber)
which contains no natural or ambient light at all... this is lit with a soft fluo box frame right as key, filled with a Diffused 2K fresnel on flood across the room screen left and the slightest hint of blue "sunlight" on her frame-left shoulder to simulate the light hitting her from the open window in the background. The room lights were off for this shot... we lit the whole thing ourselves. (it's a bit yellow, which we'll be cc'ing out later -- due to misunderstandings between DP and myself, which were swiftly worked out).


(Photographer: Randy Baranczeck; Production: Paperclip; Model: Iris Huber)
This uses sunlight as a frame right rim, 1K diffused frame left as a soft warm key and a bounce redirecting the sunlight back at her as fill, also frame left.

Both relatively natural looking, both standard 3-point setups, Key, Fill, Rim. It's how you apply them and how you motivate the lights (where it seems to be coming from) that makes it look real or artificial.

Oh wow those shots look great, especially the first one!

when you say "1k diffused" about the second picture's soft warm key, does that refer to the colour temperature?

 

[chilipie]

when you say "1k diffused" about the second picture's soft warm key, does that refer to the colour temperature?

Diffusion means spreading out or scattering rays of light, giving you softer (i.e. less well-defined) shadows.

 

[gibbo]

Diffusion means spreading out or scattering rays of light, giving you softer (i.e. less well-defined) shadows.

Yep thanks chilipie, I was actually referring to the 1K part... I already knew what diffusion was

Thanks!

 

[chilipie]

Yep thanks chilipie, I was actually referring to the 1K part... I already knew what diffusion was

Thanks!

Ah okay, my bad

1K = A one Kilowatt lamp (with a colour temperature of around 3200°K)

 

[knightly]

With the term "Warm," I'm specifically referring to the color temperature, but I prefer to discuss in more non-technical terms where I can as most folks understand warm and cool more than CTO, CTB, 3200k, etc....

in that shot, I added a 1/2 CTB gel (Color Temperature Blue) to get it closer to the window light without losing all of it's orangeness.

I added a diffusion gel to spread the light out and remove the harsh point light that the open face light would have given.

Since we were using a light that was "focusable", I pushed the reflector forward to "flood" which spread out the light a bit more to help with the hotspot in the center... think of this part like having a mag light flashlight that when you turn the head more the bright spot in the center spreads out.

CTB gels move incandescent lights (orange) closer to sunlight (blue)
CTO gels move sunlight (blue) closer to incandescents (orange)
A "Full" CTO or CTB will generally move to or from one to match the other.
At "1/2", it'll put it part way there, but leave some of the color so it'll play as the original color without looking like I had forgotten to white balance.

And thanks for the complement

 

[gibbo]

Ah okay, my bad

1K = A one Kilowatt lamp (with a colour temperature of around 3200°K)

OK, so it's the strength of it! 1k is pretty strong then!

With the term "Warm," I'm specifically referring to the color temperature, but I prefer to discuss in more non-technical terms where I can as most folks understand warm and cool more than CTO, CTB, 3200k, etc....

Got ya.

in that shot, I added a 1/2 CTB gel (Color Temperature Blue) to get it closer to the window light without losing all of it's orangeness.

Still following you!

I added a diffusion gel to spread the light out and remove the harsh point light that the open face light would have given.

Since we were using a light that was "focusable", I pushed the reflector forward to "flood" which spread out the light a bit more to help with the hotspot in the center... think of this part like having a mag light flashlight that when you turn the head more the bright spot in the center spreads out.

CTB gels move incandescent lights (orange) closer to sunlight (blue)
CTO gels move sunlight (blue) closer to incandescents (orange)
A "Full" CTO or CTB will generally move to or from one to match the other.
At "1/2", it'll put it part way there, but leave some of the color so it'll play as the original color without looking like I had forgotten to white balance.

Oh right! That's interesting....

So the power/brightness of the light doesn't matter so much? I was thinking that it would be similar to the way exposure works with "stops" but with colours, EG: you would have to keep adding CTO gels over a window until you got it balanced with the incandescent lights inside, it could be 3 or 4 full gels depending on how bright the day and how direct the light is shining on the window or something.

But it's actually only 1 full or 1 half? that makes it easier then, because I was going to ask how to check the colour "stops" and how to check colour temperature in general, it has to be done through the camera?

And thanks for the complement

You're welcome! What camera was that shot on anyway?

 

[knightly]

Canon 7D

As for the colors, overcast v. bright sunlight are different, 500w incandescent dimmed to 100w is warmer than a 100w bulb. These are just things that you can look at on the monitor though and say "that's too much blue."

I always encourage the director on a production I'm lighting to point to the monitor and show the things they don't like so I know which light to adjust... even just, "that's wrong" with a finger on the portion of the image lets me know which light to work with to get it "right".

At some point, you have to get over all the technical stuff and trust that you've watched enough tv and movies... and seen enough real life things to make a quick judgement call on an image... perhaps even pointing out something that's too bright or too flat or too colored. Then you can figure out how to fix it... start with the 3-point setup, and tweak from there... I like to have a bright rim light, but I soften to hid the fact that I'm rim lighting a little bit... I like to have my fill on a dimmer so I can just dial in an exposure ratio... I like to have my background lighting on a dimmer so I can change the exposure level separately between fore and backgrounds.

I generally key opposite my rim light (or vice versa) and try to motivate them both with existing lights so they are expected lighting schemes... I let the lights have a bit of color to tie them to the subconscious' need for determining where a light is coming from... a hint of blue or orange is a TON of information for the viewer.

 

[gibbo]

Thanks Knightly, really enjoy reading your comments and tips!

So there are no non-technical books that come to mind about lighting?

I'm going my best to get onto sets through Uni to get actual experience but it's hard because I don't have a lot of free time.

 

[chilipie]

So there are no non-technical books that come to mind about lighting?

Film Lighting by Kris Malciewicz poses quite a few artistic questions to Hollywood cinematographers and gaffers (how they approach lighting a scene, for instance). I wouldn't call it a non-technical book by any means, but I'd definitely recommend it.

John Alton's Painting With Light is a classic, and despite it containing a lot of technical information (much of it now outdated) it's fascinating to see how films from another era were lit. It's very readable and if the aesthetics of film noir and deep focus still appeal to you I think you'd enjoy it.

 

[knightly]

If you can get hold of a light, a camera, and a subject in a chair, you can start learning how light behaves... just takes a single weekend day to do a bunch of tests in a controlled environment with just you and 1 other person.

 

[gibbo]

Film Lighting by Kris Malciewicz poses quite a few artistic questions to Hollywood cinematographers and gaffers (how they approach lighting a scene, for instance). I wouldn't call it a non-technical book by any means, but I'd definitely recommend it.

John Alton's Painting With Light is a classic, and despite it containing a lot of technical information (much of it now outdated) it's fascinating to see how films from another era were lit. It's very readable and if the aesthetics of film noir and deep focus still appeal to you I think you'd enjoy it.

Thanks chilipie, I'll check them out!

If you can get hold of a light, a camera, and a subject in a chair, you can start learning how light behaves... just takes a single weekend day to do a bunch of tests in a controlled environment with just you and 1 other person.

I will do this during the holidays when I don't have any assignments due!

Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread! Big help!

 

[knightly]

Play with the light, really take the time to try stuff that is not textbook and find what you like to see. I do this every time I get a new piece of equipment.