http://love-it-loud.com/news/produc...-for-donations-are-admitting-they-are-idiots/
Elitist turd or can he see a naked emporor?
Kickstarter? IndiGoGo? You're an idiot!
- Thread starter Zensteve
- Start date
http://love-it-loud.com/news/produc...-for-donations-are-admitting-they-are-idiots/
Elitist turd or can he see a naked emporor?
Just like the "indie filmmaker" moniker covers both non-Hollywood studio subject material - and - amateur I'm-having-fun-doing-this-myself no budget filmmakers alike, KS+IGG provide a broad enough coverage for both groups of people that know WTH they're doing - and - fools that don't.
Now, if my obtuse widdle bwain understood WTH some of the grieving author's rambling was about he's complaining about a performer with money was asking for, and received in abundance, essentially pre-sales for her material which she otherwise probably would have ended up selling to her fans on tour.
If right, then she's a better business person than he is.
Albini either needs to STFU or keep pandering to his enflamist readers, in which case the joke's on his readers to whom he's DELIBERATELY pandering to.
Politicians. Pfft.
Now, if my obtuse widdle bwain understood WTH some of the grieving author's rambling was about he's complaining about a performer with money was asking for, and received in abundance, essentially pre-sales for her material which she otherwise probably would have ended up selling to her fans on tour.
If right, then she's a better business person than he is.
Albini either needs to STFU or keep pandering to his enflamist readers, in which case the joke's on his readers to whom he's DELIBERATELY pandering to.
Politicians. Pfft.
Whether you're recording an album or making a movie, it's going to cost money. You either set up a meeting with a higher power like a record label or movie studio and hope they like you enough, or you take it into your own hands or ask your fans. Both options are acceptable in my opinion.
*edit*
I read the article more carefully, and I understand what he's trying to say, but I still don't believe you can criticize someone for choosing crowd funding over working really hard on your own from the ground up.
Artists work hard for it because they have to and they're passionate about what they're doing, but if there's an easier way, why wouldn't you take it? That's what technology is all about; making life easier. We should feel grateful that we live in a time where websites like Kickstarter even exist. That being said, just because you launch a Kickstarter campaign, doesn't mean you're going to get that money. You still have to put in the work to promote it.
In the end, great artists will still be recognized for their art, and bad artists will be forgotten. Crowd funding doesn't change that.
*edit*
I read the article more carefully, and I understand what he's trying to say, but I still don't believe you can criticize someone for choosing crowd funding over working really hard on your own from the ground up.
Artists work hard for it because they have to and they're passionate about what they're doing, but if there's an easier way, why wouldn't you take it? That's what technology is all about; making life easier. We should feel grateful that we live in a time where websites like Kickstarter even exist. That being said, just because you launch a Kickstarter campaign, doesn't mean you're going to get that money. You still have to put in the work to promote it.
In the end, great artists will still be recognized for their art, and bad artists will be forgotten. Crowd funding doesn't change that.
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I think his argument is that there's a third option - you do it without help from outside funding sources, whether those are investors or the audience, and simply build with the resources you have at hand.
He mentions the kid on a street corner drumming on a bucket - he doesn't go looking for an investor to buy him a drum kit, or seek donations to buy a drum kit. He takes the bucket he has, and makes the music he can with it, and gets money from the audience in exchange for the performance he is giving right now rather than a promise of a better performance with the drums he'll buy with the money later.
When the kid does eventually buy that drum kit with the money he earned playing his bucket he doesn't owe anyone anything, and he can go on to do whatever he wants with the new drum set - or even the money itself if he changes his mind and decides not to buy a drum set. That's very different than if he'd gone on kickstarter and raised the money, then decided that what he really wanted to do was paint, and ended up with an uproar from the people who'd donated expecting a great solo drum album in return.
It's a subtle distinction, but it's there, and I think it's worth making. There is a value to true independence as an artist, and any approach to raising money from outside sources involves trading some of that independence away.
I think the problem is calling someone an idiot for making that choice - there's trade-offs either way, and just because a certain trade off makes sense to one person but not another doesn't make either one of them an idiot. It just reflects the truth that everyone values different aspects of art, commerce, and their lives differently.
He mentions the kid on a street corner drumming on a bucket - he doesn't go looking for an investor to buy him a drum kit, or seek donations to buy a drum kit. He takes the bucket he has, and makes the music he can with it, and gets money from the audience in exchange for the performance he is giving right now rather than a promise of a better performance with the drums he'll buy with the money later.
When the kid does eventually buy that drum kit with the money he earned playing his bucket he doesn't owe anyone anything, and he can go on to do whatever he wants with the new drum set - or even the money itself if he changes his mind and decides not to buy a drum set. That's very different than if he'd gone on kickstarter and raised the money, then decided that what he really wanted to do was paint, and ended up with an uproar from the people who'd donated expecting a great solo drum album in return.
It's a subtle distinction, but it's there, and I think it's worth making. There is a value to true independence as an artist, and any approach to raising money from outside sources involves trading some of that independence away.
I think the problem is calling someone an idiot for making that choice - there's trade-offs either way, and just because a certain trade off makes sense to one person but not another doesn't make either one of them an idiot. It just reflects the truth that everyone values different aspects of art, commerce, and their lives differently.
If you read the comment after you realise he's not criticising Kickstarter users at all. He's criticising Amanda Palmer's asking her fans to work for free after they already pledged 1.2 million dollars to make her album. Don't believe everything you read anywhere, people are always looking to sensationalise everything and frankly, it's distasteful.
"It should be obvious also that having gotten over a million dollars from such an effort that it is just plain rude to ask for further indulgences from your audience, like playing in your backing band for free."
"It should be obvious also that having gotten over a million dollars from such an effort that it is just plain rude to ask for further indulgences from your audience, like playing in your backing band for free."
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I will have more to say on this later, but I definitely side with Mr. Albini on this one (whose DIY street cred includes Big Black and recording Low's "Secret Name", two very fine artistic achievements done on the cheap). I have no problem with using Kickstarter for presales. I have no problem with an artist saying "hey local guys, want to hop on stage with me for a show?" with no pay. Hell, there are bands I'd even pay for the opportunity.
However when you rake in 1.2 million, saying that you can't afford 35k (which is the number she stated) for tour musicians is just insane. She's also claiming her record cost 250k to record (really?) and that cds are costing her $15 each to press and ship. Again, her words, not Albini's, not mine.
However when you rake in 1.2 million, saying that you can't afford 35k (which is the number she stated) for tour musicians is just insane. She's also claiming her record cost 250k to record (really?) and that cds are costing her $15 each to press and ship. Again, her words, not Albini's, not mine.
I don't know, different strokes for different folks. Independence and self-sufficiency seem like good values or principles, sure.
But, in interviews, Palmer has spoken about collaboration and community with her fans. If I recall correctly, she has said that a lot of her funding needs have to do with the cost of promoting the album. Is she having it over on her "gullible" fans, or is she ingenuous? I suppose it depends upon how cynical you want to be, or how cynical you think she is.
Also, did she or anyone else have any idea her fans would come up with that much money?
It's fine for him to hold and express his opinion. But does he have to be mean about it? Would he really call her an idiot to her face? If so, what does that say about him? If not, what does that say about him? It's apparent that he has some kind of axe to grind with Palmer. How is he not just another internet troll/flamer gracing us with his lashing out at another artist who, I'm guessing, isn't getting up into his s&^t?
But, in interviews, Palmer has spoken about collaboration and community with her fans. If I recall correctly, she has said that a lot of her funding needs have to do with the cost of promoting the album. Is she having it over on her "gullible" fans, or is she ingenuous? I suppose it depends upon how cynical you want to be, or how cynical you think she is.
Also, did she or anyone else have any idea her fans would come up with that much money?
It's fine for him to hold and express his opinion. But does he have to be mean about it? Would he really call her an idiot to her face? If so, what does that say about him? If not, what does that say about him? It's apparent that he has some kind of axe to grind with Palmer. How is he not just another internet troll/flamer gracing us with his lashing out at another artist who, I'm guessing, isn't getting up into his s&^t?
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Disclaimer: I do like the first couple Dresden Dolls releases (though the proliferation of "dark cabaret" that has followed in their wake I could do without). At one point I was a casual acquaintance of Amanda Palmer.
Steve Albini would say that to her face. He has his way of seeing things, and is not shy about stating it. He refuses to be credited as a producer, preferring "engineer" even when he actually is producing. He does things cheap, and analogue. He's very old school, DIY. He's not the sort of person you'd want to hang out with. He's outspoken, but he knows what he's talking about. http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17 is worth reading, regarding record labels.
Also worth reading: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020 Again, she claims that her cds cost $15 each to press and ship. Cost. That is a lie, and an insane one at that. Let's look at an 8 panel digipack, quantity of 5000 (remember she's sold 7000 and price usually goes down with quantity) at http://www.oasiscd.com/products/digipak-8pan.asp No options will get you over $2 each. There is no way the cds cost $15 each.
Again saying you want to involve your fans, community, etc, is one thing. Saying you can't afford to pay people is something different. I would be entirely on the other side of the fence if she had just said "hey, local folks, want to play with me?" and the fact that she's said for the "important" shows (NYC, etc) she's going to hire musicians, just says to those fans how little they are worth.
That they came up with that much money for her is awesome. Good on her, good job to her fans. That she's continuing to exploit that and literally crying poverty is another.
Steve Albini would say that to her face. He has his way of seeing things, and is not shy about stating it. He refuses to be credited as a producer, preferring "engineer" even when he actually is producing. He does things cheap, and analogue. He's very old school, DIY. He's not the sort of person you'd want to hang out with. He's outspoken, but he knows what he's talking about. http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17 is worth reading, regarding record labels.
Also worth reading: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020 Again, she claims that her cds cost $15 each to press and ship. Cost. That is a lie, and an insane one at that. Let's look at an 8 panel digipack, quantity of 5000 (remember she's sold 7000 and price usually goes down with quantity) at http://www.oasiscd.com/products/digipak-8pan.asp No options will get you over $2 each. There is no way the cds cost $15 each.
Again saying you want to involve your fans, community, etc, is one thing. Saying you can't afford to pay people is something different. I would be entirely on the other side of the fence if she had just said "hey, local folks, want to play with me?" and the fact that she's said for the "important" shows (NYC, etc) she's going to hire musicians, just says to those fans how little they are worth.
That they came up with that much money for her is awesome. Good on her, good job to her fans. That she's continuing to exploit that and literally crying poverty is another.
Steve Albini said:
http://love-it-loud.com/news/produc...-for-donations-are-admitting-they-are-idiots/
Elitist turd or can he see a naked emporor?
I know nothing about Palmer's Kickstarter proposal/budget so I'll just forward my opinion on the quote Zen posted.
What Albini has forgotten is that most of the art which populates our visual/aural history (at least in the Occident) are works which exist either as the result of a communities' rituals or the patronage of the rich. The luxury of creating art for oneself is a fairly modern concept and, unfortunately, not always an economically viable endeavour. The only difference I see between a patron in history and one of today (ie a Kickstarter/ indiegogo or any other party which donates) is the artist was commissioned to create something specific to the patron's wants/needs whereas today, a patron can cruise whole catalogs of proposals for one which appeals to them. I see absolutely no reflection of idiocy on behalf of the artist.
I don't really know anything about either of these artists, but there's two rules of thumb that I think apply here. One, your actual costs will always be higher than the theoretical minimum you can come up with doing rough/preliminary estimates. And two - the more money you have, the more money everything costs.
Plus the cost of shipping thousands of CDs from the replicator to your house, and padded envelopes to ship them to the recipients, and postage for each one, etc. Those $2 digipacks will easily run you $5-6 each by the time they get to the final recipient - and we haven't even talked about packaging and addressing each one for shipping.
If you only raised $25-30k in your kickstarter than you maybe have a few hundred dollars left over at this point to buy some pizza and beer, invite a bunch of friends over, and have an envelope stuffing party.
If you raised $1 million+ then your friends aren't likely to be as willing to chip in their time for free, so you either pay them to do it or hire professionals.
Also figuring all of this out and coordinating it takes time. If you have no money you do it all yourself, and don't count it as a cost. But if you have money then you have a choice - spend the time to become a fulfillment expert, or spend your time being a musician and spend your money hiring someone else to do it. Paying people for their time will eat up money faster than anything else - and once you have some money behind your project everyone expects to be (and rightfully should be) paid for their time.
So now you're probably paying $8-9 per disc by the time everything's accounted for - and that's just for a basic digipack. From the kickstarter:
Hard to say without seeing what the finished product looks like, but from the description I'd guess it's a digibook, not a digipack - and I can't even find a place that will give an online quote for those. I wouldn't be surprised if the base cost for the replication was over $5 a disc. So, considering all the other costs, and that the packaging may be more than just bubble mailers, plus whatever the 'thank you cards' cost, is $15 a disc high? Barely - and I don't find it that unreasonable considering it's a "back-of-the-napkin costs" estimate and not a complete, detailed breakdown.
Plus the cost of shipping thousands of CDs from the replicator to your house, and padded envelopes to ship them to the recipients, and postage for each one, etc. Those $2 digipacks will easily run you $5-6 each by the time they get to the final recipient - and we haven't even talked about packaging and addressing each one for shipping.
If you only raised $25-30k in your kickstarter than you maybe have a few hundred dollars left over at this point to buy some pizza and beer, invite a bunch of friends over, and have an envelope stuffing party.
If you raised $1 million+ then your friends aren't likely to be as willing to chip in their time for free, so you either pay them to do it or hire professionals.
Also figuring all of this out and coordinating it takes time. If you have no money you do it all yourself, and don't count it as a cost. But if you have money then you have a choice - spend the time to become a fulfillment expert, or spend your time being a musician and spend your money hiring someone else to do it. Paying people for their time will eat up money faster than anything else - and once you have some money behind your project everyone expects to be (and rightfully should be) paid for their time.
So now you're probably paying $8-9 per disc by the time everything's accounted for - and that's just for a basic digipack. From the kickstarter:
Hard to say without seeing what the finished product looks like, but from the description I'd guess it's a digibook, not a digipack - and I can't even find a place that will give an online quote for those. I wouldn't be surprised if the base cost for the replication was over $5 a disc. So, considering all the other costs, and that the packaging may be more than just bubble mailers, plus whatever the 'thank you cards' cost, is $15 a disc high? Barely - and I don't find it that unreasonable considering it's a "back-of-the-napkin costs" estimate and not a complete, detailed breakdown.
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I have read a little about the controversy surrounding this, but not much. All I know is that I saw her last night in Houston (and have seen her solo and with Brian in the Dresden Dolls a few times before as well) and she put on a great show. I didn't buy a cd but I did buy a couple shirts and a lot of booze.
And I wonder how many cd's she made - she debuted at #10 on the Billboard charts after selling 24,000 cd's (probably a lot of sales came from the donors)
And I wonder how many cd's she made - she debuted at #10 on the Billboard charts after selling 24,000 cd's (probably a lot of sales came from the donors)