I'm buying a 16mm camera - but it needs to shoot sync sound

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spaceman spiff

Much like digital when I first started mucking about with it, I'm really just going in head-first. Having never shot on film before, I'd like to remedy this, and since I got a fairly fat parting cheque from my previous employers, now is definetely the time. Thing is, I don't know a whole lot about film cameras and started veering towards the Bolex's and Beaulieu's (simply because of make).

HOWEVER,

It is essential that I am able to shoot sync sound with this camera. My budget is anything under $300 (which is actually pretty decent going by ebay.ca and craigslist prices - I'm in Toronto), so I cannot go the Arriflex/CP-16 route. I'm looking towards Bolex/Beaulieu/Krasnogorsk and Bell+Howell. Any suggestions?

This noob appreciates it.

Or does 'blimping' an H-16 or K-3 (or whatever) get rid of much of the camera noise? I guess I really don't have enough dosh for an pro-sync camera out of the box, unless I find some sort of mega deal (which in fairness, I'm good at finding).
 
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There's no way you're going to get a sync sound 16mm for $300 unless you rent a camera for a day.
 
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Alright, let me put it this way. What is the cheapest way I can get a non-sync 16mm and reduce camera noise as well as lag between audio and video?

AND, simply what is the best semi-pro 16mm camera out of the lot I just mentioned in terms of durability, flexibility, ease of loading cartridges and the quietest. I'm sure everyone will have a different favorite, and that there's not really a RIGHT answer, but what cameras have you guys used and how well have they treated you?
 
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Well if you want to spend hours in the editing room with really short takes it's possible you can get close to lip sync. Anything over a couple seconds will drift considerably. Cheap cameras are noisy. You can even get the "flicker" sound using $30K cameras.
 
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You need more $ for sound equipment, film, processing, etc. Film is not something you just buy and shoot with $300. You should mess around with Super-8 and graduate to 16.
 
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spaceman spiff said:
Alright, let me put it this way. What is the cheapest way I can get a non-sync 16mm and reduce camera noise as well as lag between audio and video?

AND, simply what is the best semi-pro 16mm camera out of the lot I just mentioned in terms of durability, flexibility, ease of loading cartridges and the quietest. I'm sure everyone will have a different favorite, and that there's not really a RIGHT answer, but what cameras have you guys used and how well have they treated you?
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I don't think you are going to find a 16mm camera with a
sync motor that is durable, flexable and uses film cartriges
like super 8 for $300. I can offer a list of the best semi-pro
16mm sync cameras, but they won't fit your price range.
My favorite is the Beaulieu R-16 and the Eclair NPR. I still
own both and occationally shoot with them.

The only 16mm cartridge load camera I've ever heard of is
a Bell & Howell; but I don't remember the model. Are you
sure you want a cartridge load 16mm camera?
 
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With $300 I might look at it in terms of the type of one off project you might be able to do.

You can get a Super 8 cam and a bunch of Tri X for a silent project that will have additional costs to process and transfer, but you could do something.

You could get a Super 8 cam, a projector and some Tri-x for a silent project, then pay for the processing and do an off the wall flicker transfer, but you could do something.

When it comes to 16mm at $300 you might be sending expensive film (processing, transfer and shipping) through a camera and lenses that just aren’t worth it, or I should say the film side of things can exceed what you have the cash to buy the camera with in term sof quality.

If you are dying to own a 16mm, I would spend the $300 on a camera alone and look for a deal locally on an outfit like a Reflex Bolex that has some good primes with it, then learn 100ft at a time. (Non sync, non quiet, non external motor)

You could spend a little more ($400-$500) and get like a B&H 16mm set-up with 400Ft mag, motor and some primes or a Pan Cinor zoom on it.

If you are just in a Jones to have a project on 16mm, then maybe hook up with a decent film student (you can trust) that has a camera, knows it inside out and that can teach you how to shoot 16mm. Get him to get a student discount on film (Maybe processing and transfer too), then find a local band that will throw a few bucks at a music video, and use the $300 to learn to shoot with the film student and have a usable project for your time and cash.

Same could be done on Super 8mm of course.

-Thanks-
 
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Hurm.

I guess I wouldn't be averse to Super 8. (I really appreciate all the help by the way). It's not like I MUST try 16 first, I just kind of like the look better and thought it would be pretty neat to finally get to play around with one.

So, if we're talking 8mm (or Super 8):

1. How do you guys get audio out of it? Do you just film as is, and then do a seperate audio track (maybe from say a digital source), and then combine the two and try to sync it in post? I kind of want to do music videos, and a 'My Winnipeg' (brilliant movie if you dudes haven't seen it) for Toronto, so my stuff won't be super talky. Please feel free to lambast me profusely if combining analog and digital is a major sin, I tried it once (did not extract the video from the film myself), and it sort of didn't work out, but that was a while ago when I hardly knew how to edit either.

2. Any suggestions for boss cameras? I'm seeing a cheap Bolex Paillard B8L that's caught the attention, so it's quite possible that I can pick up an 8mm now, and a 16 after I start my new job this summer.
 
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spaceman spiff said:
1. How do you guys get audio out of it? Do you just film as is, and then do a separate audio track (maybe from say a digital source), and then combine the two and try to sync it in post?
Click to expand...
You've got it right. This is why you need a sync camera. Because
the picture is being captured on a different device than the audio
and both devices need to run as a constant speed. This has been
done for more than 80 years. Very few super 8 cameras have
crystal sync motors so it makes syncing more difficult.
I kind of want to do music videos, and a 'My Winnipeg' (brilliant movie if you dudes haven't seen it) for Toronto, so my stuff won't be super talky.
Click to expand...
I've made several music videos on super 8.
Here's one you might like.

2. Any suggestions for boss cameras? I'm seeing a cheap Bolex Paillard B8L that's caught the attention, so it's quite possible that I can pick up an 8mm now, and a 16 after I start my new job this summer.
Click to expand...
The three best - in my opinion - are:
Beaulieu 4008 ZM II - I shot two features with this camera.
Nikon R10 - the first camera I ever bought
Canon 1041 XL-S - a solid camera with a great lens and pretty
good under low light conditions.

The others:
Canon 514 XL-S and 814 XL
Elmo 612S-XL / 1012S-XL
 
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directorik said:
You've got it right. This is why you need a sync camera. Because
the picture is being captured on a different device than the audio
and both devices need to run as a constant speed. This has been
done for more than 80 years. Very few super 8 cameras have
crystal sync motors so it makes syncing more difficult.
Click to expand...

Gotcha.

directorik said:
I've made several music videos on super 8.
Here's one you might like.
Click to expand...

Dude! That's fucking quality! Could I get similar res and acuity on Standard 8?

directorik said:
The three best - in my opinion - are:
Beaulieu 4008 ZM II - I shot two features with this camera.
Nikon R10 - the first camera I ever bought
Canon 1041 XL-S - a solid camera with a great lens and pretty
good under low light conditions.

The others:
Canon 514 XL-S and 814 XL
Elmo 612S-XL / 1012S-XL
Click to expand...

Urm... the Beaulieu is a little... out of my reach, and the other cameras, bar the R10 [but the deal looks shady] aren't on ebay at the moment (yeah, I'm kinda excited). Have you tried that Bolex R8L that I mentioned? No extra lenses is a bit unfortunate, but the camera looks in quality condition and I like that it comes with it original case. It's a standard 8 though, and judging from the discrepency between prices of the Standard-Super divide...
 
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I shot a feature (TERRARIUM) with a silent 16mm camera. The cheaper cameras are nooooooiiiisy. (Scoopic, Bolex, etc.)

Anyway, my trick is to record to a video camera and use the audio from that. It's not that hard to move audio around with a decent editing program. I shot ROADKILL that way, too. If you record audio, while the film camera is running, you should use a clap board or slate, so you can start the audio at the right time with the picture, when editing.

BTW, I've never used a slate in my life. Computers make it such a breeze to sync stuff up, with all the time stretching/compression tools and just plain cutting ability. I would suggest keeping the dialogue to a minimum, if you do that. I wrote a "gabby" feature and it took me a while to edit all the dialogue together. Whenever something wouldn't sync up, I just cut to the other people listening. Cutaways are key to doing this.

It's like this - the less money you spend, the more time you will work on your movie.
 
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spaceman spiff said:
Dude! That's fucking quality! Could I get similar res and acuity on Standard 8?
Click to expand...
I would think so. But you know, of course, that it wasn't
the camera, it was the skill and talent of the crew that
made that super 8 music video look good. We did excellent
lighting, and a lot of smooth camera moves.

Urm... the Beaulieu is a little... out of my reach, and the other cameras, bar the R10 [but the deal looks shady] aren't on ebay at the moment (yeah, I'm kinda excited). Have you tried that Bolex R8L that I mentioned? No extra lenses is a bit unfortunate, but the camera looks in quality condition and I like that it comes with it original case. It's a standard 8 though, and judging from the discrepency between prices of the Standard-Super divide...
Click to expand...
You will have less film stock choices if you use standard 8 and
fewer places will transfer it. Much more than video a good quality
image comes from understanding exposure and lighting and film
speed. Standard 8 and super 8 cameras in your price range are
going to take a lot of work to get quality.

I've never heard of an R series. There was a D, B and C and
several reflex Bolex cameras like the H8, the P1, P2, P3 and the
K1 and K2. Maybe you mean the H8-REX. Does it have a turret
lens mount?
 
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directorik said:
You will have less film stock choices if you use standard 8 and
fewer places will transfer it. Much more than video a good quality
image comes from understanding exposure and lighting and film
speed. Standard 8 and super 8 cameras in your price range are
going to take a lot of work to get quality.

I've never heard of an R series. There was a D, B and C and
several reflex Bolex cameras like the H8, the P1, P2, P3 and the
K1 and K2. Maybe you mean the H8-REX. Does it have a turret
lens mount?
Click to expand...

Blah! Sorry, I meant Paillard B8L. I am not sure if it has a lens mount (how does one link image files from the desktop? This site only seems to let me link image files from the internet).
 
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