Let's say you don't have the necessary experience or relevant qualifications from film school, is it still possible to become something of a success in the industry these days? I mean, I know it's important to network and form connections, because it's a case of "who you know" rather than "what you know", but if you haven't studied film-making/script-writing at college or uni, can you work your way up simply by self-teaching?
How far can you go without attending film school
- Thread starter TheJasperCo
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Here's more bad news Skycopeland. Full Sail only has trade school accredation only -- in other words your credits won't transfer to a 4-year school. What this means you can't even teach high school if the film career bombs out. You'll need an actual BA or MA for that, so your fall back options drop considerably. Maybe managing a McDonalds?
Morale: If you are going to splurge for film school, go to an academically accredented film school, like UCLA or your local university.
Morale: If you are going to splurge for film school, go to an academically accredented film school, like UCLA or your local university.
Does anyone else see this contradiction?
Loading film is the past for most filmmakers
Such strange assignments can be a headache, but they force you to think about the medium itself. You now have to think about the connection between music and images. About telling a story with color, composition and rhythm instead of actors telling us what is going on. About conveying an atmosphere without people.
The ability to tell a story without dialogue is one of the things that raises a good story to great cinema.
Anyway, I liked to go in that direction to explore the medium, to search for my and it's limitations. A real challenge I learned a lot from.
Actually, I like to think that's one of the things that makes me a different filmmaker than my competitors
Such assignments are like washing windows in The Karate Kid: they seem stupid, but in the long run they are invaluable...
I must add that during the second year in artschool most of my classmates, including me, had to go through a period of less motivation. They called it the 2nd year dip. Probably because we got more strict assignments to learn the craft, that were not nesseccarily what we wanted to make. Or things that seemed very hard to do.
(Ok, my heart got broken as well and that kills a lot of motivation as well
)But after that the fire started burning again
I must also admit that I don't keep track of everyone.
I know a few are active in the business.
And some moved in different directions.
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What? Directing is the only goal one might have in filmmaking? I know many people who have no interest in it all. Soundies, DoP's, wannabe producers... Hell I think I'm probably more cut out for being an editor. If someone wants to be a DoP, then it makes sense to get involved in the industry at a lower more technical job. Roger Deakins had a number of camera operator credits before he landed a major DoP job. He was a cinematographer too, but nothing hugely significant. Point was, starting in a lower end job was important for him.
If I want to be a sound designer, then getting into hollywood in a booming (or something more directly applicable to post-sound - though I imagine location sound experience is useful) position might be a really good start for me.
That's not really news? You seem to think I went to the school knowing nothing about it. It's accreditation allows it to change the curriculum often to match our changing industry. A clear warning when you apply is that most courses will not transfer to other schools.
Fall back option? Actually no it still stands. Alternative Teacher Certification. (I do believe that's what it's called.) If you have a degree in a specific field you can take a 2 month teaching course for a special certification to teach school, which actually pays you better for having a focused degree instead of a general university degree. I don't know about other states, but this program is apart of Mississippi.
Sure, if you're interested in a specific field, that's good, but by and large, most people (here anyway) want to be filmmakers and that means having the kind of control over a project as a director would. If you're into sound only, I'd say you have a far better shot at becoming one than a director. Good luck!
That applies to academic accreditation as well -- they're always being updated to match "changing industry" -- IT, MBAs et al. This is a line they're feeding you to excuse its "trade school level" accreditation.
Which might have came about as a result of a lawsuit.
You better check again. Teachers have to have a BA or BS level academic degree AND a teacher's certificate (varies by state). There's no way you can use your trade school degree from Full Sail to teach anything other than a "shop class" about filmmaking. And even then, only if the school offers it, and part time, at less pay, and a lot of competition from other film school grads. Schools often incorporate it into their media departments and an academic degree is required.
If you're okay with your path, don't let me stop you.
Why arent more people just making film? If you have a passion for it? Why not just do it? What is holding people back?
I'm the opposite-- the content is what counts, and the film stock, camera etc. are all a distant 2nd. My degree was on the technical side of things but I wish I had covered more about storytelling.
You don't need to go to film school, but you do need to have some education and training to make it in this industry.
The traditional way is to 'work your way up' - say in the camera department, as a 2nd AC, then a 1st AC, then an operator, then a DP. Such a transition from 2nd AC to DP could take 10-15 years, but it is generally accepted as a way to do so.
Even if you attend film school, there's still extra training and education you need that you will only get by working on sets. That may be real-world sets, or they may be the graduating sets of your film school, but you do need experience on sets.
Personally, I know DPs who were shooting high-budget commercials and features straight out of film school. I know ACs who stepped into Focus Pulling (i.e. 1st AC) straight out of film school. I know Producers who stepped out of film school almost straight into Producing $250,000 budget commercials. I know Directors who stepped out of film school and started getting regular pay for directing Commercials. All of these people are friends of mine who I met at film school.
I also know people from film school who left and are now working in cafes, or still shooting weddings. I know people who left and went into entry-level jobs on film sets - that perhaps they may have been able to step into without film school.
I also know many people in the industry who are highly successful without film school. Gaffers who work every day, and have their own trucks who never went, or dropped out of, film school. DPs who spent 15 years as Steadicam Ops and ACs.
I don't think I've met a working professional who has not had some sort of training and education. Whether that's real-world, hands-on, learning from those above, or film school, or (often) a combination of both.
The traditional way is to 'work your way up' - say in the camera department, as a 2nd AC, then a 1st AC, then an operator, then a DP. Such a transition from 2nd AC to DP could take 10-15 years, but it is generally accepted as a way to do so.
Even if you attend film school, there's still extra training and education you need that you will only get by working on sets. That may be real-world sets, or they may be the graduating sets of your film school, but you do need experience on sets.
Personally, I know DPs who were shooting high-budget commercials and features straight out of film school. I know ACs who stepped into Focus Pulling (i.e. 1st AC) straight out of film school. I know Producers who stepped out of film school almost straight into Producing $250,000 budget commercials. I know Directors who stepped out of film school and started getting regular pay for directing Commercials. All of these people are friends of mine who I met at film school.
I also know people from film school who left and are now working in cafes, or still shooting weddings. I know people who left and went into entry-level jobs on film sets - that perhaps they may have been able to step into without film school.
I also know many people in the industry who are highly successful without film school. Gaffers who work every day, and have their own trucks who never went, or dropped out of, film school. DPs who spent 15 years as Steadicam Ops and ACs.
I don't think I've met a working professional who has not had some sort of training and education. Whether that's real-world, hands-on, learning from those above, or film school, or (often) a combination of both.
It's hard work. The ability to make something that people (strangers -- NOT your family and friends) will actually sit through to the end is processed by very few.
The smart director while shooting is already thinking of herself sitting in the editing suite cutting the images together.
This explains the popularity of talking about gear -- far easier than making an actual watchable film.
Which you can get by reading a book(s). There's plenty of excellent ones. Basic filmmaking techniques are all the same. This is all you really need to make a great film if you've got the corresponding script.
Never worked on someone else's set. I did however, have my own camera and experimented the hell out of it. It can be done if you're properly motivated.
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I wholeheartedly disagree. Not everything can be learnt from reading books. In fact, there are many things that simply cannot be learnt by reading books alone!
That's not to say that books aren't helpful, and in fact they are and certainly can be. But you cannot learn everything there is to know from a book, and in fact - you cannot learn everything there is to know about making films period! That is why you work with other people who have more knowledge, expertise and experience than you in certain areas.
Personally, I believe it depends on your objective/goals. Owning a camera and experimenting with it does not make up for professional experience.
What's the goal? If the goal is to make a low to no budget film that may one day make back it's budget, then sure it might be pluasible that reading books and doing everything by yourself might make that a possibility.
Wrongola. Filmmaking is one of the things that CAN be done by books if you get your head out of the box. Don't make excuses for people that don't want to read.
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Good books, your own camera, lots of experimentation and smarts = completed feature film
Few books or no books, repeated forum visits = oversupply of gear and no completed feature film.
Out of curiosity, GA, you have a feature film yeah? Is there somewhere I can watch it? I find your philosophy interesting, so am curious as to your results
The very basics can be gleaned from books, but even film school will not teach you many of the things required to make a film. If nothing else, the discipline required cannot be learned from books, or even film school itself.
I have read a few books, and I have read many online articles, and there are still large gaps in knowledge that can only be taught by shadowing someone else, learning from those who know more than you, and professional experience.
Now sure, they're not the kind of things that you may even notice are missing in your low to no budget feature that you slap together doing most things yourself, however they are things that are noticed on larger sets, and that can be detrimental to your own career if you believe you know everything based on a select number of books you've read.
Again, I argue it depends on your goal. If your goal is to only to complete a low to no budget film to a standard that you're personally happy with and then attempt to sell enough DVDs to make the small production budget back over an extended period of time, then perhaps books will work for you.
If your goal is to be a working professional in this industry, then books alone aren't going to cut it.
If you wish to be a good amateur filmmaker, this is a decent enough philosophy. As an aspiring professional however, this is just any early step along the way, rather than an end goal. The end goal is of course not just making something people will sit through, it's making something that people enjoy sitting through so much that they're willing to pay for the privilege!
The smart Director will have already hired or booked a talented Editor and will have planned for what's going to happen in the edit suite well before shooting even starts!
You've got to be joking?! There's not a single individual art of any type at which one can become professionally competent from just reading books and filmmaking is harder still, because it's a number of different individual arts combined.
There's not a single even half decent book on how to be a professional filmmaker, let alone "plenty of excellent ones"!!! There are a few excellent books pertaining to specific aspects of certain filmmaking crafts but there are hundreds/thousands of others which are outdated and/or just plain inaccurate and for some filmmaking areas there are not even any decent books, let alone excellent ones.
One of the potential benefits of film school is having lecturers who know enough about the film industry to direct students to appropriate reading material. Without that knowledge/guidance how is one to judge what is an excellent book from a poor or misleading one?
No they're not, where did you read that?!
Name one "great" film in the last 50 years which only employed basic filmmaking techniques.
I'd like to see this great film you've made just from reading books, experimenting with your camera and being motivated.
This statement demonstrates that you really don't know much about filmmaking in general and certainly very little, if anything, about professional filmmaking and also very little about film school. For example, one doesn't go to film school instead of reading books, one goes to film school AND reads books! The diligent/serious student will also be extremely motivated, will spend a great deal of time/effort experimenting and a good course will guide the the students' filmmaking experiments to maximise what they learn from those experiments. You seem to have the notion that there's a choice between reading books/experimenting/self learning and film school, which is a thoroughly bizarre notion because film school is in addition to reading books, experimenting and self learning, film school is not a replacement for, or instead of them!
G
But it's not a "grip career" - it's an entry level job, just like you'll end up taking in almost any industry when you start out. It's like saying "you mean I'm going to fork out all that money for my MBA and not be a CEO?". That's not how it works, anywhere. An MBA might get you a junior VP position somewhere - but that's usually because people start with a bachelors, get an entry level job, gain some experience & climb the ranks, and then go back to school after a couple of years to get an MBA. So the only reason the MBA gets you to the lower-rung leadership position is because it comes at the end of at least 6 years of school combined with another 3-5 years of actual work experience.
Again though - the thousands of employers aren't looking to hire MBAs & IT guys straight out of school into top level management positions (the equivalent of a director). You'll get a lower-level job to start with, and then work your way up if you've got the chops over a few years at minimum. There is no career where getting a degree will catapult you to a top-level position straight out of school.
Now of course you can just skip the whole industry thing and do it on your own - in both film and other businesses. You don't need a degree to direct a film, any more than you need a degree to start your own business. But those are two different paths that don't often end up in the same place. I've seen countless entrepreneurs successfully start up a business only to find out they simply don't have the skills or aptitude to run that business once it grows beyond a handful of employees. That's the point at which they start hiring people with the degrees and experience to do so, and the founders often end up leaving to do another start-up - not go on to a high-level leadership position in a larger company. Likewise, the ability to produce your own no-budget feature doesn't mean you'll be able to transition to do the same at the studio level. They're parallel career paths that don't necessarily converge at the same point. Which, again, is fine - as long as you can either figure out a way to make your own films profitable, or generate a revenue stream elsewhere that can support it as a loss/hobby.
Well, I see I've riled everyone up again. I've posted these links to my feature film before and have sent DVDs to certain members of this forum . . . yet here we are again.
Again, made for about $10K, got in festivals, won awards, praised by critics, great music and absolutely NOT BORING.
While the festivals weren't Cannes and Sundance and the awards weren't the Oscars or the Palme d'Or, but the point is that ANYONE here with the right set of smarts, motivation and OUT OF BOX thinking can do the same thing for very little money, a very small crew and no paid actors.
DVD: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963781332
Instant view: http://www.amazon.com/Lexie-Cannes-CourtneyODonnell/dp/B00KEYH3LQ
Only thing different I'd do if I were to reshoot it today is to use the HD format -- something that wasn't quite affordable in the early '00s when I started collecting footage.
Good luck.
Again, made for about $10K, got in festivals, won awards, praised by critics, great music and absolutely NOT BORING.
While the festivals weren't Cannes and Sundance and the awards weren't the Oscars or the Palme d'Or, but the point is that ANYONE here with the right set of smarts, motivation and OUT OF BOX thinking can do the same thing for very little money, a very small crew and no paid actors.
DVD: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963781332
Instant view: http://www.amazon.com/Lexie-Cannes-CourtneyODonnell/dp/B00KEYH3LQ
Only thing different I'd do if I were to reshoot it today is to use the HD format -- something that wasn't quite affordable in the early '00s when I started collecting footage.
Good luck.
APE, in another venue I reviewed filmmaking books -- maybe over 100+. Yes, most are crap and many have become obsolete, yet there are a number of excellent ones and I've posted a top 10 list in this very forum a number of times for people asking about filmmaking books.
No one is debating that. The original question wasn't "is it possible to make a feature without going to film school?". The question was:
So, would you say that making your film has made you "something of a success in the industry"? Has it led to you working in the industry, or making a career as a filmmaker? If not, I don't see how it's relevant to the question that's been asked, unless you're citing yourself as an example of how just doing it yourself isn't necessarily a path to industry success.
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