How do I avoid this production problem?

[harmonica44]

My plan was was to make a few no budget shorts, then make a short film, and send it into film festivals. After a few months or perhaps years of doing that, I wanted to make a feature. My DP though, has dropped out of making practice shorts with me and may very well not want make the actual short film later. My sound guy seems like he wants to drop out too now. The thing is when you have people working for free on the their craft, it's almost impossible to get people to work together to actually make something. So what do I do? I already bought all the equipment for the short film, and the feature later on. But now I have no one to work it.

I could always hire a cameraman and a soundman but that could eat into my microbudget. How do other people where I live, get their friends to work with them on making features, when no one wants to work for free. It seems money and a contract are the only motivation. The other problem is I have shopped around and there are hardly any cameramen or soundman in my city, and the ones that are always working on bigger higher paying projects. I feel I might have to have someone come in from a different city, but right there, the price goes up.

At this point I feel that if I can't make any no budget shorts for practice, then I will have to skip right into making the feature, with the money I have, and hire people, without having had any practice at directing or editing yet. Sure I could take my equipment and shoot random shots and edit those, but it's not the same as practicing with a crew. Especially other cameraman, editors and soundman who know a lot more about what they are doing than me. But it seems that there is no other option then to skip straight to the feature otherwise. So how do other people get locals to work for very low pay and get them to actually commit to a project, and get everything done on time? What's the secret?

 

[gpforet]

Write something that people will want to work on for free. I have volunteered to work on several projects where either I really liked the script, or really wanted to work with the people involved.

Of course, there's also the issue that you have no experience doing this and it seems like you are placing blame on others for not doing something yourself.

When are YOU going to shoot something?

Most filmmakers I know started by working alone, and only after having a few projects under their belt did they seek out others to help in the areas that they felt needed it?

But you know, hey, go ahead and make your feature without ever having done anything other than write about wanting to make a film. Sounds like you're already blaming others for why you can't get what you want. I'm sure that will only grow as you attempt a feature.

The reason I speak so harshly is I recently came off a set of a short where I volunteered as a favor to a friend (a make-up artist and for this work, producer). The director had never worked on a set. Never worked as a PA, grip, or AD, and within 20 minutes was blaming everyone on the set for why he wasn't able to get what he wanted when in fact, his complete lack of experience prevented him from having a clear idea what he wanted, and could only communicate in vague, abstract terms. The AD would call the roll, to which the actors on several occassions would stop to say they had no idea what they were supposed to be doing. By the end of the first 4 hours, everyone on set was simply tolerating the shoot, and the work suffered. You can't direct a movie unless you know how to make a movie, and all the posting, and all the reading will not get you experience in making a movie.
It is not the DPs job to direct the shot, it is not the sound guys job to direct the shot.
How can you possibly direct even a short if you have never worked on the set of someone else's project and watched and learned by doing all those uncredited but vitally important tasks needed to make anything of quality?
Do you have a script?
Do you have a shot list?
Do you have storyboards of every shot?

There is no secret to making movies. It is a tremendous amout of hard, unmeritted work, often done in isolation from anyone other than those involved in the project.

Have you submitted your script for review by other, more experienced screenwriters?

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm an engineer during the day, and have worked at night and on weekends doing production sound for the last 3 years, working on several features and more shorts than I can count. I started writing my first screenplay in the fall, which after being about 3/4" complete had written myself into a corner I'm still trying to navigate out of. My 2nd screenplay is outlined and I have begun filling in scenes. I will also be working this weekend on the first shots of a feature being produced by a filmmaking group which I have been working with for 2 years. The script was reviewed and ammended to completion 4 months ago. Since then, the DP and 1st AC have been out practicing shots that have been identified on the shot list for each scene. They've been at it for 2 months. Location scouts have just in the last week nailed down the locations we will be using for this first weekend. We are expecting 25 to 35 days of shooting, spread out over the next 6 to 9 months. Specific equipment needed for the first weekend has either been purchased or scheduled for rental. The make-up artist has been performing make-up tests with the director and actors, craft services is now soliciting for any special dietary needs, grips have been lined up, and I have lined up an assistant for the sound department. All told, there was somewhere around 20 people involved in several hundreds of hours to get us to this point, and we haven't hit the record button yet. And this is a team that has produced 9 shorts in the last two years.

There is no secret. It's a lot of work.

 

[directorik]

Whoops

 

[gpforet]

Try this:

http://www.filmpool.ca/

 

[trueindie]

harmonica, listen to what gpforet is saying. Don't take offense.

I never went to film school. Growing up I didn't think I wanted to be a filmmaker. The desire was there. But so was the desire to play world cup soccer. I didn't think either was possible.

Anyway, I made my first film, a feature (because I didn't know any better) in 2006 and I had never picked up a camera before. But I had a script that excited people. But nobody wanted to trust me as I had never done anything. I hadn't even gone to film school. I had never made a short film. I was working in finance.

I used to live in LA at the time, so I just went to creaigslist and went to work as a PA on weekends. I watched what these people did. I kept quiet, didnt' bother people with too many questions. I watched and I watched, and I decided what I liked, what I didn't like, what I would do, what I would do differently and why. So by the time I started shooting, I knew a few things. But most importantly, and this wasn't taught to me by anybody, I always had a very strong opinion of where I wanted my camera and when, and what was going to be in frame. I knew it so well, that when I started talking, people just believed me. After a few questions, they would stop asking me questions because I had every answer, and then they just decided to do whatever I told them. I didn't pay anybody. I only paid the dp, who told me he needed to pay rent and I paid him the entire amount upfront so he could make rent, and then he took off, had a dispute with me on the style and decided not to show up anymore. The only other person that got paid was one of the actors, because he really needed it. I even had to fill up his gas tank for him. But he really was very good.

I don't want to go into my entire story, but I think you should work as a PA for other people and see what they do. Make up your own mind about how to do things. Assume it is your set. What would you do differently and why?

Then go to your own set, and make people believe in your project. You don't have to be a DP, but you need to have a good idea of what to tell the dp. You need to tell him "look, I'll be using two cameras, so when you plan your lighting, you can't light both sides because then the light stands are going to be in frame... blah, blah" whatever it is. But you need to know what you want very, very, very well. Then other people will try to help you make that happen, because they will think you know what you are doing, which I'm sure you will.

Come over to Toronto. There's a bunch of us here trying to make it
Good Luck!!
Aveek

 

[harmonica44]

I wanted to work as PA several times, but it's hard finding projects where I live. I have volunteered to work on 3 so far, but they all told me they had enough people and were not interested. I could ask to sit in and watch on the next one though, if they do not want volunteered help. Maybe they won't mind being watched.

And it's not that I'm blaming others. Not at all. I know the DP does not direct the shot, and I do. . I know the sound guy, does not and I do. In fact I have really come up with some ways to direct a lot of the scenes I have written. I have no problem working with others, but the biggest problem has been not getting people to all agree to show up and work. It's not that I have a problem on set, I do good. It's just people are not motivated to stick to showing up, when they previously agreed to. So I think as a director starting out, I am doing, good, but I don't know how to motivate them to keep their appointments.

I was hoping to practice and work on set, while writing the script for the feature. Once I am finished it though I can show it to people, hoping that will motivate them, if it will. However I would like to work or observe on set, or practice my craft, but am having trouble for those reasons. If I move to Toronto though, or any other city, that will eat fast away at the budget I saved up though. I would like to fine people to work for no money, but haven't had hardly any success so far. I could get people interested once I'm finished the script. I have already written another script which I have not shown to anyone cause I wanted to shoot it myself, but I could if that's a good idea. I do not wanna film this on yet, though, because it's too big budget for me. This would be one for later down the road. I am writing another one now that I wanna shoot.

My friends say it's a great script treatment and that it's years ahead of it's time, once said. And no they were not just saying that to be friendly. So I guess I got a good shot at getting people interested if they will wanna read it, but I have no idea how to get much practice before the feature.

I will look harder for more sets to work or observe on, and keep my eyes open in adds for it a lot more. But that might be my only way of learning, unfortunately, if I can find something. If I'm not doing anything wrong, and it's just bad luck, then I could read books and watch films on how to make movies, but will that really help compared to experience? Probably not, but that is a last option if I can't fix this problem. I could shop the script around once it's done, and advertise on who will wanna work to make this movie. If that will be more extra motivation, to get people to want to stick to it. But I can't seem to get any practice beforehand so far.

 

[trueindie]

I would say, that the best teacher will be working on somebody else's set. Bug the hell out of people until they say yes.

Also, if people are saying that you have a good script, then I would say that you probably do have a good script. Most people will tear apart even a good script, and if you look at their scripts, you'll find that more often that not, it's even easier to tear apart their script. So again, if people are really telling you that you have a good script, you probably do have one.

Here's the other thing, most of us are artist types, not really type A personalities who command attention when they walk into a room. Okay, I'm speaking for myself here. The point is that writing and producing/directing your own film are two different things. Producing/Directig is a people game. You need to figure out a way to make people believe in you. You need to figure out what motivates them. Remember, these are problems you are facing at the very beginning. When you actually shoot a feature over a period of three weeks, and not pay anybody, halfway through the film, you're going to start losing control over your crew. Because now 'they' have the upper hand. If you get into a tiff, what if an actor decides to leave, what're you going to do, shoot half the movie again. You need to realize that these are distinct possibilities.

So here's my final and the very best piece of advice I can give to somebody like myself in 2006, when I had never even met an 'actor' and there were so many of them in LA. That's how out of the loop I was when it came to filmmaking. I read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Shoot-Feature...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305175499&sr=8-1

How to shoot a feature film for under 10k and not go to jail. I've read many books on filmmaking since then, but nothing else prepared me on what I would face on set as a beginner filmmaker, what kind of tantrums could be thrown on set (and they were on mine), what kind of food to get for people, what kind of paperwork to be ready with, how to answer questions answers to which I didn't know, but had to pretend like I did, how to maintain the top dog status so that people listened to me, etc. Buy this book before any other. Read it and plan your film. In the meantime bug the hell out of people so they let you on their set.

Good Luck!!
Aveek

 

[harmonica44]

Well my friends just read the treatment for my new script, the one I am currently writing. They haven't read my first script, but I will show it around once it is copyrighted. I'll get that book, and I'll ask just to observe on sets, when the next one comes around, since they won't let me work so far. I do realize that I need more control over a crew.

 

[knightly]

On the script, find someone outside your group of friends who will tear the script apart for you. You don't want folks who like it because they have to face you after the critique... unless you have a friend who you trust to kick the crap out of your script for you without worrying about how you'll react to it.

On staffing your crew... I've spent the past 8 years growing my crew with people who won't flake out on me and who hit the ground running every shoot, look to community theater for some of the folks who are looking for a creative outlet and not expecting to get paid.

On doing shorts to get experience... if you can't find them to work on, do the shoot yourself. Make it happen - there are no excuses in filmmaking, no one will help you move forward and realize your vision at this price (or probably any for that matter), EVER FORWARD - damn the torpedoes!

Make it happen. Experience is the answer to the question at the top. Build a crew that you trust, invite the folks back that perform well. Create an environment they want to come back to. If spending $1000 of your feature budget to get that experience is the difference between failure and success... isn't that worth the investment?

For the record, I haven't spent more than $500 on any individual short of the dozen I've done. It shows early on that I was clueless -- and you're asking the same questions I did. Hit set, learn what questions you need to ask to improve.

 

[knightly]

and for the record... i started here:
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Video/hassegeschichte.sm.mov
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Video/KylaraMoviesm.mov
These were both made in a single day with a single day of editing... no budget and cheap cameras. The first was from a story board given me by the lead actor (made for their wedding)... the second was a story my daughter came up with. The crew was me, her and my friend... that's it. You don't need a full blown production to learn stuff... make a little corny short.

 

[knightly]

Then straight into a no-budget feature -- still unfinished due to a couple of things:

1) I took on too many roles and ran out of steam (DP, Camera Op, Audio, Director, Producer, Editor, etc...)
2) Bad import and clip organization
3) The script wasn't as good as I thought even though the original story was sound (TMD = Too Much Dialog)

The point is, even a couple of shorts won't get you the understanding you seek... you need to spend tons of time on set, hours reading film and acting books, hours watching every BTS on every DVD you can find (I stopped buying DVDs for the movies a long time ago) -- not just for what's being said, but everything in every frame of the BTS - what every grip in the background is doing.

Warning!!! It's nigh unwatchable, but it shows all the mistakes... these mistakes: http://yafiunderground.com/HOLD_DIR/AJ/diary.html
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Video/AJ-2007-05-25.mov

We all jumped into this filmmaking thing with the same gusto you are going at this feature... feel free to prove us all wrong, but we've all done the same thing, jumped in head first and found out there's no water in the pool. We're trying to help you fill the pool. (experience is the water for those of you playing at home ).

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks this will probably help a lot. I can't find sets to work on though, and you said to do the shoot myself, but that's where all the trouble started. I can't get people to wanna practice their craft with me. I have been shooting myself without actors or crew, just to get some experience shooting and editing, but that's not really the same.

I would like to get some experience working with actors and crew, cause that's better experience. I will pick up that book that suggested to me though and hope that helps, on how to get people to wanna work for free. Sure I have no problem spending $1000 for a short as a learning investment, but I fear that will be the only short I will be able to make. I don't wanna keep spending thousands on shorts just to learn and then have a good portion of my money thrown away.

I just need to learn the secret on getting people to wanna make shorts for little money. Hopefully some books like that will help or something. Once I finish the script from the treatment I will show it to impartial people in the business. I emailed someone today, who was shooting a short film if I could just observe if he has nothing for me to, for free. Hope he says sure. I will keep hunting though, and keep looking for a crew that actually wants to commit.

I know what you're saying, I don't want to jump head first into the pool, realizing there is no water. But I'm still trying to find out how to acquire the water. Since I can't seem to get people to work with me much what if I shot and edited all the a lot of my own sound and video, for practice. I won't be able to record video and sound simultaneously but that seems to be my only option right now. I am trying to get some people together again for a practice short but because of everyone's schedules it can take up to months to schedule a first shoot date, as it did the times before for me.

 

[thedude4242]

I wanted to buy a camera and start getting things done but I am glad I sat back and couldnt figure out exactly what I wanted because it gives time for things to sit in and what you really need and want and what you want to spend.

 

[harmonica44]

So what have you decided then?

 

[harmonica44]

I wanted to buy a camera and start getting things done but I am glad I sat back and couldnt figure out exactly what I wanted because it gives time for things to sit in and what you really need and want and what you want to spend.

So what have you decided then?

One thing I didn't mention before was when it comes to looking for people wanting to work on their craft, even though I have a hard time finding cameramen or soundmen, for some reason a lot of people want to make movie music scores for short films to get there foot in the door. There are musicians all over who replied to my adds, where I live, but not much of anything else. So it could be that my city just lacks filmmakers. But if I move, my money drains fast right there. Plus there must be something I am doing wrong, since a couple of other people have made short films here recently.

 

[knightly]

I'm still trying to find out how to acquire the water. Since I can't seem to get people to work with me much what if I shot and edited all the a lot of my own sound and video, for practice. I won't be able to record video and sound simultaneously but that seems to be my only option right now. I am trying to get some people together again for a practice short but because of everyone's schedules it can take up to months to schedule a first shoot date, as it did the times before for me.

"Knowing is half the battle!" I would hit up those community theaters and any local university/high school drama programs (you'll need parental permission for the HS kids), but this is exactly where I started; friends and co-workers. Slowly, I've accrued a team of 30-40 folks who are really into it whenever we do a production! It's taken 8 years, but the wait has paid off in spades

Once you've done a short or two on super tight budgets (much easier to get a cast/crew to commit for a day/weekend shoot than a feature) You should have enough of a clue to start development (some pre-emptive shot lists/storyboards to figure out how much coverage you're going to need to shoot and be able to communicate the vision to others) on the script you've written... location scouting, scheduling, crew/casting (in that order) and the rest of the preproduction will roll along from there. Remember, once it starts, it's like that boulder in the beginning of Indiana Jones... never stop moving forward - EVER FORWARD. Stopping will be catastrophic after a certain point (you'll know that point when you get there in a sickening realization that there's no turning back - -- not necessarily a bad thing).

If you can learn all the crew jobs well, then you can start teaching the folks who seem to have dedication and an knack for the jobs to do them to your specifications (this is what I've been doing). This way, you don't necessarily need to spend as much hiring pros in the less managerial positions (sorry pro folks)... it also gets your shorts made for much cheaper. Pick up a nice DSLR package (like a Canon T2i or something) and some audio gear. When you hit your production, you'll have the gear and won't have to re-invest on it -- plus you'll know what it can and can't do specifically! We'll help you with those shorts as well with pointed critique and answers to the questions that will come up from doing the actual full on process.

I'm still a big proponent of moving forward with the shoot, just don't go into it without some experience managing a crew of 30ish folks and making decisions on the fly.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. I will do that. Right now I will use the gear myself, and I will keep looking for people to make practice shorts with me. I don't know if I wanna wait 8 years, but I will take however long until I feel I know I enough and have the right people. Thanks. So is there any other advice on how to get people more interested in working on their craft, or working as a crew with me? I will learn the equipment myself, though. I can make shorts myself, where it's just me doing everything, just for practice for now.

 

[thedude4242]

I still have not decided on exactly what I want to do.

 

[wheatgrinder]

music, editing, special visual effects, etc are stuff that can be done in there own time at someones own home. Those folks are already virtual based so its little hassle and risk to take on a noobs project, plus most of the score, edit, visuals etc.. activity doesn't happen till you've already sorta proved you can complete your project..

Anything that requires really working in the flesh is where I, and you, and I presume all of us noobs, have a hard time finding free help.

 

[knightly]

As we've done more shorts, I just keep contacting the ones who shine on set. I've assembled a good crew that way... I take their recommends on set as well, so the regular crew has some ownership over their friends' work ethic as well.