series George Lucas says ESB is the worst film in the series.
- Thread starter Aspiring Mogul
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But he thought jar jar was a good idea.. so, clearly he's a little off his rocker.. lol 
Oh, man, Jar Jar ...
Gary Kurtz and Lucas pretty much fell out over Jedi and Lucas' decision to focus so much on the ewoks, and by extension product marketing targeted primarily at kids. The subsequent prequels continued in the same vein. From what Kirshner's said in more recent years I'm inclined to think Kurtz is as much responsible for the success and quality of the first two films (probably American Graffiti as well) as Lucas was, if not more, and once he was out of the picture Lucas was freed up to do whatever he wanted. So I'm not all that surprised if he looks back on ESB as the worst film, as it was probably furthest from his own personal vision, regardless of what the critics think of it.
I've heard this before (the article you linked was from 2007) and I seem to recall an interview where he explained what he meant a little better. Here's a more recent interview with Joss Whedon (whose opinion I respect more than Mr. Lucas anyway) saying something similar:
http://www.firstshowing.net/2013/joss-whedon-has-one-big-problem-with-the-empire-strikes-back/
He has a point, and one of the reasons why I like Empire so much is that the story keeps going afterwards. Your favorite episode in a tv series, but not so much as a stand-alone work. Even Episode 3 suffers the same problem; maybe even worse because it ends the prequel series. It's not just that it's a downer ending; it's that the ending is all setup for the next movie. You watch it and you don't feel satisfied unless you put in A New Hope next.
But Empire will always be my favorite. Probably followed by Jedi. I LIKE Ewoks, damnit.
http://www.firstshowing.net/2013/joss-whedon-has-one-big-problem-with-the-empire-strikes-back/
He has a point, and one of the reasons why I like Empire so much is that the story keeps going afterwards. Your favorite episode in a tv series, but not so much as a stand-alone work. Even Episode 3 suffers the same problem; maybe even worse because it ends the prequel series. It's not just that it's a downer ending; it's that the ending is all setup for the next movie. You watch it and you don't feel satisfied unless you put in A New Hope next.
But Empire will always be my favorite. Probably followed by Jedi. I LIKE Ewoks, damnit.
According to Kurtz, Ep 5 would have been more nuanced, instead of a fairy-tale ending.
Just reading that paragraph so inspires me ...
Just reading that paragraph so inspires me ...
The 3 coffee table books are pretty extensive on detailing everything that happened, in a pretty open and honest way, although my favorite BEHIND THE SCENES book was Once Upon a Galaxy: the Making of Empire Strikes Back by Alan Arnold.
The reality is that George Lucas was completely burned out after the first Star Wars, and as demonized as the guy has been - he was responsible for a lot of the better elements in all of the movies.
The reason Gary Kurtz was let go after Empire (he was let go, not the other way around) was because they went several million dollars and several weeks over Empire Strikes Back. Lucasfilm borrowed the $$$ without studio involvement for the film since it was independent - and Kurtz along with Irvin Kershner may have made a great film, but they put everything finanically at risk.
Without a doubt, George Lucas did think of the toys and the revenue therein for RETURN OF THE JEDI, but there is no documentation or evidence that this is the case in the prequels. George was already rich beyond reckoning before the prequels and he just wanted autonomy without restriction. The results were quite imperfect with the prequels.
To me, the lessons to be learned are that collaboration on screenplay and producing usually equate to a far better movie.
The reality is that George Lucas was completely burned out after the first Star Wars, and as demonized as the guy has been - he was responsible for a lot of the better elements in all of the movies.
The reason Gary Kurtz was let go after Empire (he was let go, not the other way around) was because they went several million dollars and several weeks over Empire Strikes Back. Lucasfilm borrowed the $$$ without studio involvement for the film since it was independent - and Kurtz along with Irvin Kershner may have made a great film, but they put everything finanically at risk.
Without a doubt, George Lucas did think of the toys and the revenue therein for RETURN OF THE JEDI, but there is no documentation or evidence that this is the case in the prequels. George was already rich beyond reckoning before the prequels and he just wanted autonomy without restriction. The results were quite imperfect with the prequels.
To me, the lessons to be learned are that collaboration on screenplay and producing usually equate to a far better movie.
Agreed, but I think he screwed up Jedi. As I understand it, after ESB, he began going into video games, and that distracted him from the final episode in the trilogy.
How do you know this, may I ask?
Back in MARCH you asked about this book and were given links. Just today Sonnyboo mentioned
the book again "although my favorite BEHIND THE SCENES book was Once Upon a Galaxy: the
Making of Empire Strikes Back by Alan Arnold."
You should get it and read it. It's a great book.
THE MAKING OF EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
http://amzn.com/0345509617
in the final few chapters, they cover Gary Kurtz departure in detail, and the entire book is about how they went way over schedule and over budget - including how much (to the penny) was borrowed from banks, how much interest was involved, and how 20th Century Fox almost got their rights back.
ONCE UPON A GALAXY by Alan Arnold
http://amzn.com/0345290755
Also an alternate and far more honest and less promotional view of the production.
I respect and love EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, and I even concede that in many technical ways it is a superior film - but my favorite is the original 1977 A NEW HOPE. I felt it was more of a slice of the entire galaxy thing, and less specific to these few characters. EMPIRE turned VADER into a "Hey, I'm gonna choke and kill anyone who disagrees with me" now military ranked guy, whereas there was more politics, subtlety and scope in the first film
RETURN OF THE JEDI sucks. No two ways about it for me. Completely unoriginal, bland, and entirely lacking in drama. Lawrence Kasden, who is blissfully involved in all new STAR WARS movies at Lucasfilm today, wrote a great draft of RETURN OF THE JEDI. It was then re-written by George Lucas and all the great drama removed.
I point to the Kasden script in one scene to demonstrate how George Lucas ruined his own idea. In Kasden's script, right after Yoda died, Obi Wan shows up and Luke SCREAMS at him
LUKE
Why didn't you tell me Vader was my father!
OBI WAN
You weren't ready. We told you to finish your training
LUKE
I had to leave! I had to save my friends.
OBI WAN
And didn't they wind up saving you?
Why didn't you tell me Vader was my father!
OBI WAN
You weren't ready. We told you to finish your training
LUKE
I had to leave! I had to save my friends.
OBI WAN
And didn't they wind up saving you?
And THEN they had a calm conversation. See? DRAMA. Better.
I used to rank JEDI lower than PHANTOM MENACE. Then I watched them all in a row. Nope, PHANTOM MENACE sucks worse.
I have read the first book by JW Rinzler, and I took it with me to the Entertainment-law conference in Jamaica. I have even gotten in contact with him.
I didn't look at the second or third books, but I'll get them today.
I didn't look at the second or third books, but I'll get them today.
My personal ratings:
Episode 1: **
Episode 2: ***
Episode 3: ***
Episode 4: *****
Episode 5: **
Episode 6: **
ESB could very well be the worst. I've expressed my distain for this stupid, stupid movie in the past
Luke is some big hot shot but he's riding a kangaroo out in the middle of nowhere. Somehow they can't ride spaceships, but they rescue him with a spaceship the next day. So I guess their spaceships can't fly at night? But he was on the kangaroo during the day.
Also try watching saving private ryan with all the tanks and then watch ESB right afterward with those god awful at-at or whatever they're called. There is no thought at all put into the technology, it's just oh this is something that might look cool. I was dumber for having watched it.
Episode 1: **
Episode 2: ***
Episode 3: ***
Episode 4: *****
Episode 5: **
Episode 6: **
ESB could very well be the worst. I've expressed my distain for this stupid, stupid movie in the past
Luke is some big hot shot but he's riding a kangaroo out in the middle of nowhere. Somehow they can't ride spaceships, but they rescue him with a spaceship the next day. So I guess their spaceships can't fly at night? But he was on the kangaroo during the day.
Also try watching saving private ryan with all the tanks and then watch ESB right afterward with those god awful at-at or whatever they're called. There is no thought at all put into the technology, it's just oh this is something that might look cool. I was dumber for having watched it.
Oh no I just saw the original trilogy like a month ago and I think all of the films were great but The Empire Strikes Back is definitely my favorite. It's one of those few movies that I love even though I found the first twenty minutes to be pretty weak. After that though it becomes an even greater film than A New Hope by making me feel more involved with the characters. The first film was a masterpiece adventure film, but the second film added more of a heart and it gave me a reason to care more about the outcome of the story. The film is also better visually than the first one, I think. The Empire Strikes Back was so great that it lingered in my heart and made me want to watch the next film immediately, unfortunately I think that Return Of The Jedi is not on the same level of the first two, it's a very good film but no masterpiece.
Filmmakers are often wrong about their own work. Woody Allen thinks every new film he makes is his best and hates his old films (and he hates all of his films at the end of making them anyway). John Ford hated all of cinema and said that he basically made films just to make money, even though his films are now recognized as great works of art. And I'm sure there are many more examples of this. I really disagree with Lucas because I'm almost sure that if The Empire Strikes Back was not a part of the Star Wars saga then it wouldn't be as iconic or celebrated as it is today.
EDIT: Actually I just read sonnyboo's previous post and I think I agree with most of it except for his feelings about Return Of The Jedi (I think it is good as an adventure film, but it's no masterpiece). The first Star Wars was definitely more about the whole galaxy and a huge epic sci-fi myth that suggests even more stories while The Empire Strikes Back gives us more of a focus on a few characters. I think they both did an amazing job at what they did, and it really is a matter of taste IMO. I prefer stories that focus on the development of a few characters more, so I prefer The Empire Strikes Back, but I don't think it's a much better film than A New Hope, it just suits my taste more. Return Of The Jedi on the other hand, really is inferior and I think most people agree about this, although there is not as much agreement on how much inferior it is.
Filmmakers are often wrong about their own work. Woody Allen thinks every new film he makes is his best and hates his old films (and he hates all of his films at the end of making them anyway). John Ford hated all of cinema and said that he basically made films just to make money, even though his films are now recognized as great works of art. And I'm sure there are many more examples of this. I really disagree with Lucas because I'm almost sure that if The Empire Strikes Back was not a part of the Star Wars saga then it wouldn't be as iconic or celebrated as it is today.
EDIT: Actually I just read sonnyboo's previous post and I think I agree with most of it except for his feelings about Return Of The Jedi (I think it is good as an adventure film, but it's no masterpiece). The first Star Wars was definitely more about the whole galaxy and a huge epic sci-fi myth that suggests even more stories while The Empire Strikes Back gives us more of a focus on a few characters. I think they both did an amazing job at what they did, and it really is a matter of taste IMO. I prefer stories that focus on the development of a few characters more, so I prefer The Empire Strikes Back, but I don't think it's a much better film than A New Hope, it just suits my taste more. Return Of The Jedi on the other hand, really is inferior and I think most people agree about this, although there is not as much agreement on how much inferior it is.
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I'd agree with the masses that 'Empire' is the strongest of the six films - There's just something about it. Personally, I think a lot of the allure to it lies within its place in the order - the second film that was made. 'Star Wars' or, a 'A New Hope' - rather, (That makes you feel old, doesn't it?) had a relatively small budget and was turned away by most studios until 20th Century Fox agreed to get it made. No one knew how big Star Wars would be. So, it makes sense that the very first film is relatively low-tech in comparison to the others. When 'Empire' hit, it became more of an out of this world spectacle - Big walkers and snow planets and monsters, flying cities, etc.
I don't have many quips about the two trilogies besides 'Phantom,' which I loathe with a severe passion. It's my understanding that many people do, though, so I'm not alone there. I actually have no issue with 'Attack of the Clones' or 'Revenge of the Sith' - I really enjoy both. But, it's also to my understanding that there seems to be as much critical distaste for those two as there is for 'Phantom.'
I don't have many quips about the two trilogies besides 'Phantom,' which I loathe with a severe passion. It's my understanding that many people do, though, so I'm not alone there. I actually have no issue with 'Attack of the Clones' or 'Revenge of the Sith' - I really enjoy both. But, it's also to my understanding that there seems to be as much critical distaste for those two as there is for 'Phantom.'
he past
Luke is some big hot shot but he's riding a kangaroo out in the middle of nowhere. Somehow they can't ride spaceships, but they rescue him with a spaceship the next day. So I guess their spaceships can't fly at night? But he was on the kangaroo during the day.
Also try watching saving private ryan with all the tanks and then watch ESB right afterward with those god awful at-at or whatever they're called. There is no thought at all put into the technology, it's just oh this is something that might look cool. I was dumber for having watched it.
Well, 'Saving Private Ryan' was shot in 1998, whereas 'Empire' was shot in 1980 - I feel like you can't just compare the two effects wise and ignore the eighteen years of progress of the art in between the two. Or the fact they're different genres. That just makes zero sense. That's like saying 'Blade Runner' is terrible because its effects don't stack up to 'Avatar.' Actually, it's more like comparing 'Blade Runner' to 'Lincoln' and being upset Harrison Ford's blaster doesn't feel as realistic as a Confederate rifle. One is a science fiction film the other is a drama with historical context. That comparison doesn't fly at all.
Also, Luke is a big hotshot riding in the middle of nowhere on a kangaroo because he's with the rebel alliance at their base of operations, which is intentionally in the middle of nowhere, as to avoid Empire detection. Your alternative would be him running and gunning his way through the universe, which seems a lot more dumb to me. There's a very legitimate reason he's on Hoth.
In regard to your 'spaceships can't fly at night' comment, see the script:
HAN
Not likely. Are the speeders ready?
DECK OFFICER
Not yet. We're having some trouble
adapting them to the cold.
The use of the tauntaun in that scene was to intentionally add more stress to the situation - because Han is told it'll freeze by the first marker, making his search for Luke that much more dire. Plus, there isn't any reason the above quote shouldn't make sense. You're prone to car trouble in incredibly, incredibly cold weather at night - why would a speeder be any different? Plus, of course it would be a lot colder on a snow planet at night than during the day. Saying 'Well, his tauntaun survives during the day' also doesn't make any sense, because just like in reality, it's severely colder on the planet at night.
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THE MAKING OF EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
http://amzn.com/0345509617
in the final few chapters, they cover Gary Kurtz departure in detail, and the entire book is about how they went way over schedule and over budget - including how much (to the penny) was borrowed from banks, how much interest was involved, and how 20th Century Fox almost got their rights back.
I point to the Kasden script in one scene to demonstrate how George Lucas ruined his own idea. In Kasden's script, right after Yoda died, Obi Wan shows up and Luke SCREAMS at him
Sonnyboo, I just borrowed JW Rinzler's "The Making of the Empire Strikes Back", and I've skimmed the chapters. Where does it cover in detail Kurtz' departure? Perhaps you can point it out to me, thanks.
Where did you get this script? I'd like to get a copy, thanks.
I read the first volume of JW Rinzler's work, and the second, about Empire, also resonates with me - thanks for pushing me to borrow it from the library.
It's not about genre, it's that tanks from the 1940s on seem far more suited to battle than what should be much more advanced technology
Yeah, what a much more interesting movie/story that would probably have been.
I like ESB better. But that's so true about the subtlety missing. It's a trope (or cliché?) that bothers me, not only in Star Wars. Even such bad guys need to make and keep alliances. They can't just be killing their right hand lieutenants left and right for any little mistake or in a temper tantrum. What army would follow such a guy/gal for very long if they knew he/she was going to kill them with a whim like that? 300 Rise of an Empire really took that to ridiculous heights, lately.
Actually, Phantom Menace [Actually, I meant Attack of the Clones. I confused the two.
] does have some cool things in it. For one thing, if you're able to listen to it with a good surround sound system, it does kick some ass in that regard.It's true that the cliffhanger ending of ESB is rather disappointing. But it just goes to show how good the film is that people still think highly of it.
They did the cliffhanger thing in the Back to the Future films, and that worked out okay. But the difference there is that their third film really delivered.
Especially if it's true that Lucas has felt a prisoner of the Star Wars franchise all these years, these decades, I can't help but wonder if his doing things like making this absurd claim amounts to him acting out, being rebellious, giving the more passionate fans, many of whom have been critical of his choices, the finger.
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