fight scenes

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Kangabox

hey, we need a better technique for making fight scenes, we don't want it to look good and not slow, we were wondering how do big industries make those fight scenes fast

i know they edit it by speeding it up a bit, but i don't know how keep people's voices and other sounds sound normal

also we would like to know how people hit each other in films without injuring each other, like a guy hitting another guy in the face with a gun

thanx :)
 
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Fight scenes (from the audio perspective) are a lot of fun - especially if you have a budget. Nothing is more fun than beating a side of beef with boxing gloves (shades of Rocky), baseball bats, cricket bats, 2X4's, sledgehammers and other assorted items. Then there's extensive vegetable abuse for breaking bones (celery), cracked skulls (frozen cabbages & lettuce) and stabbing & bullet impact sounds (plunging screwdrivers and hammers into melons, grapefruit and the like). And there is, of course, the ubiquitous dropping sacks of potatoes and melons for body falls and then beating them with various implements for more impact sounds. Oh, and how could I forget lotions, puddings and similar things that go splat for real gore.

Once you have built the library you have to stack sounds to create emotional impact and save the really "good stuff" so that the audience goes "Oh! That really hurt!!!" when you want them to.

You also cannot forget the various flying/falling pieces of debris and clashing weapons. Then you add the whooshes if it is that type of film. Actually, you always add them; if it is a "realistic" film they are just mixed very low.

Then you put in the Foley - footsteps and clothing movements.

You finish it all off with grunts, groans, yells, breathing and the like. It is not uncommon to put in animal vocalizations, especially breathing.

Audio for fight scenes are sometimes the most complex builds in audio post. Check out "Gladiator" or "Hero" for some really excellent work. "Raging Bull" has some of the best boxing sounds around, and "Cinderella Man" has some excellent moments.
 
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Actually, I was hoping for a more detailed answer about sound such as how to edit the sound.

I know of that technique for hitting somebody with a gun. We were hoping for a more visual one. Like you can really see the gun hit them in the face or on another area.
 
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Angles, angles and more angles. Filming from the right angles when fights are going on will help things for the editor big time. You should also have a few people who know how to fight. I recommend getting a martial artist or boxer. They don't need to be high ranking but they need to know how to throw and stop a punch/kick before contact. You will also want to rehearse the fights long before you film them. Working with people who do not understand the physics of a fight will only harm the project and more importantly the actors. Also if you as the Dir does not understand how fights work you would not shoot that scene, get someone who does.

There are things you will not to stay way from if you have a bunch of people who do not like/know how to fight. Stay away from any long complicated fight scene. Don't attempt any chokes. If chokes are held even for a few seconds longer than planed it can mean some very bad things for the one being choked. If you really want a choke or two in the movie keep them very simple and make sure the actors know to tuk their chins into the chokers elbow so they can still breath. Don't even use swords or knives or anything that can puncture somebody. Finally make sure all the fighting stays on the ground. What I mean is don't have any of the actors flying thru the air unless you have a few good stuntmen.

If you follow these points you should do just fine. If you haven't gotten what I've been saying...it would be in your best interest to get some people that understand how fights really work.
 
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TheBuck said:
it would be in your best interest to get some people that understand how fights really work.
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I couldn't agree more with this statement.. a good fight choreographer is worth their weight in gold. They'll be able to teach a routine to your actors, or stunt people, and even help with camera placement so that a punch that is actually 1 foot from connecting looks like a solid hit.

There is a book out there called Fight Choreography: The Art of Non-Verbal Dialogue.. I haven't read it yet, personally, though it's on its way to me from Amazon as I type this..

It's got mixed reviews, but the first review from someone who says they've been a stuntman for over 15 years is a very good review, so... It may not have ALL the answers, but for under $20, it's got to be some of the best information that is available for putting together fight sequences for film.
 
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Kangabox said:
Actually, I was hoping for a more detailed answer about sound such as how to edit the sound.
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1. For each fight scene you put together a sound FX cue sheet:

01:09:17.16 - bad guy - arm/fist swing - fast/medium whoosh
01:09:18.02 - hero - elbow block - medium impact
01:09:18.23 - bad guy - round kick - fast heavy whoosh
01:09:19.09 - hero - drop beneath kick, fist to crotch - hard impact with crunch

2. Collect/create a library of sounds.

3. Individually place each sound in the audio time line per cue sheet

4. Add layers to enhance the sound. (For the "fist to crotch" you may put in a medium impact from hitting the side of beef, a low/sub sound for power and stomping on peanuts to emphasize the pain.)

There also will be cue sheets for the Foley and the dialog/ADR.

In most films nothing from the production sound is used, all the sounds will be created in audio post. Keep in mind that films have nothing to do with reality, it's about maintaining a convincing illusion for the audience so that you affect them on an emotional level.
 
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Its alright, I was actually talking about editing audio for actual sounds made during filming like talking. We have created fight choreography before. Its just that we want a more fast paced and more realistic effect. For example, hitting somebody with a gun and actually seeing impact on their skin, without injuring the actor. My apologies, I know its asking for a lot. We are going to work with a professional soon, so we must impress him.
 
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Kangabox said:
Its alright, I was actually talking about editing audio for actual sounds made during filming like talking.
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Then I am not sure what you are asking. Production sound/dialog editing and the rest of audio post are covered in numerous books:

Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art - John Purcell

The Foley Grail: The Art of Performing Sound for Film, Games, and Animation - Vanessa Theme Ament

The Sound Effects Bible: How to Create and Record Hollywood Style Sound Effects - Ric Viers

Sound Design: The Expressive Power of Music, Voice and Sound Effects in Cinema by David Sonnenschein

The Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound - David Yewdall

Audio-Vision - Walter Murch



For more technical aspects:

The Recording Engineer's Handbook - Bobby Owsinski

The Mixing Engineer's Handbook - Bobby Owsinski

Sound FX: Unlocking the Creative Potential of Recording Studio Effects - Alex Case

Home Recording For Musicians For Dummies




I have - or at least have read - all of the above and quite a few more. What is more important is applying what you have read in those books into actual practice. I've spent literally thousands of hours in studios and hundreds more observing masters of the craft at work.

Just open up your DAW and start editing. When you have a specific question I'll toss some of my experience your way. And the search function is your friend; I've posted quite a few things on audio post.
 
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Kangabox said:
hey, we need a better technique for making fight scenes, we don't want it to look good and not slow, we were wondering how do big industries make those fight scenes fast

i know they edit it by speeding it up a bit, but i don't know how keep people's voices and other sounds sound normal

also we would like to know how people hit each other in films without injuring each other, like a guy hitting another guy in the face with a gun

thanx :)
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Voices: I'd say ADR and add it in.

Hitting with a gun: I did this in my film and just faked the angle. If you want it to be seen, try it at half-speed or maybe even 1/4 speed and make contact. Just be damn careful. Your actors will have to do their reactions the same way i.e. facial expressions. Do several takes and use the best one.

Good luck.
 
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Nice idea, thats very helpful. Do film industries actually add voices after filming also? Or do some films just edit the audio segments to be closer to each other when the film is sped up? I remember seeing behind the scenes of a movie sword fight. In this behind the scenes, the actors fought slowly with swords during filming i think. From that I made an inference that they sped up the frame rate to make it look faster.
 
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I don't think anyone would be talking much while they're fighting. But if they did, it would be a different cut than where the action takes place. For example, they strike each other, then break away in a different cut-exchange words-continue fighting.

It's staggering how many cuts are in a minutes worth of film. Try to count them sometime. And again, ADR is the best way in my opinion.
 
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Thats a good point actually. Well I guess what I really was thinking about was the sounds the characters made, but I guess that made me think of talking too. Well I think all this information really helps, it gave me a new perspective on how to approach this.
 
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Content is king. When you watch clips from any reality disaster, your jaw just drops. It's because it's real and it's crazy. Hire some pros to do some crazy stunts and your audience will thank you for it.
But if you dont have that kind of budget, you will have to resort to a lot of editing tricks.
 
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When I do a fight scene, I cut quickly, I like a fast cutting fast paced fight scene, chances are if the cutting is quick, the viewer won't really have time to process or notice that the punch didn't impact, as long as it's close and the sound effect is believable....

But that's my method
 
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Kangabox said:
i know they edit it by speeding it up a bit, but i don't know how keep people's voices and other sounds sound normal
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If you speed up the picture then your audio to stay in synch will have to be sped up.

You can try using a time compression plug-in that compresses the audio with pitch correction so it stays the same pitch as the original, but I don't suggest it.

Get your guys to do their moves quickly.

I don't know of anyone who has done a fight scene for the first time without getting hurt. Hence, Jackie Chan for example.

Good fighting sound effects really sells a scene, too. And not some cheap mortal combat movie SFX, get real good sounding punches and hits.
 
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Kangabox said:
Nice idea, thats very helpful. Do film industries actually add voices after filming also? Or do some films just edit the audio segments to be closer to each other when the film is sped up? I remember seeing behind the scenes of a movie sword fight. In this behind the scenes, the actors fought slowly with swords during filming i think. From that I made an inference that they sped up the frame rate to make it look faster.
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Some movies have 98% of their dialogue replaced. Lord of the Rings is a good example of this. Nearly all of the dialogue was replaced.

The Hurt Locker had only 4 lines replaced of the principal character. That's the other extreme.

It varies film to film. Usually fight scenes have too much extraneous sound and need the dialogue replaced by a method called "ADR". I just recorded some for a fight scene which had all sorts of gun blasts and such.

I don't understand what you mean by "sped up" visuals equalling a good fight scene. Some of the best fight scenes ever made were done in extreme slow motion (Matrix and 300).

Just experiment. Watch what other movies did and learn how they did it by just observing for yourself and try to duplicate that with your film. That's the only way to learn for yourself.
 
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ROC said:
I don't understand what you mean by "sped up" visuals equalling a good fight scene. Some of the best fight scenes ever made were done in extreme slow motion (Matrix and 300).
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What about a couple of frames cut?

For example a Punch to the face, as the fist approaches, to make it seem like the fist travels fast and the impact is hard, remove a frame or two in between the actual impact and just before and it looks pretty harsh.

Similar to simulating a gun fire, remove a frame so when your flick your wrist it looks like the gun had a large blowback, I tried that and it turned out pretty well, I'm not sure if it's done in professional films though.
 
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Ah - in that case the sound has to be cut by a couple frames and given than no-one is speaking at that exact moment it should turn out fine.

Otherwise, you can leave a word or 2 untouched with just a couple frames taken out and it should synch fine.

But if you go anywhere above 3-5 frames you would start to notice it.
 
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