dvd distribution via download?

Hey filmmakers :)

Alright, I have a little problemo that needs a bit of attention.

You see, I'm planning on selling my work (dvd's should I call them?) via download. So I have a few questions regarding the matter:

1. Is there anything special I should know about anti-piracy? Is it different?
2. What software is good for downloadable content? (anti-piracy)

Thanks in advance! :)
 
There is no surefire way to prevent illegal copies. Every single protection out there has at least 3-4 cracks.

Are you "selling" a download of a DVD ISO file? So they download it from you, but burn it themselves?
 
Well, I haven't been deciding on that yet, but since you brought it up, I might just do that. Do you have experience with this type of distribution? :) Any information would mean a lot!
 
My honest opinion is (and you guys may think its crazy), at our level, you want piracy. I want everybody to pirate my film and watch it. I just want people to watch it. The more people that watch it, if its any good, the better it will be for me for my next film. They're probably going to pay the second time if the first time was any good.

That's just me. But just to tell you that this isn't a theory completely made out of thin air, my senior year thesis was on why piracy is good for microsoft. Piracy can work wonders for the established players, as it doesn't let new and cheaper blood in. In our case, it is free advertizing as nobody really knows us. So if your film is any good, and you plan to make many, many more like them in the future, I'd say let people pirate it if it means they'll get to see it.

My two cents only.
Best,
Aveek
 
My honest opinion is (and you guys may think its crazy), at our level, you want piracy. I want everybody to pirate my film and watch it. I just want people to watch it. The more people that watch it, if its any good, the better it will be for me for my next film.

If you have taken money from investors for your film, then you are either misleading to them about ROI or your plan is flawed because there is no ROI with piracy.

They're probably going to pay the second time if the first time was any good.

Why would someone pay for something they can get for free, first time or second time? I just don't see the business plan making any sense to endorse piracy.
 
@Sonnyboo, there might be some truth behind this theory because, I myself used to play pirated games and all, and I also recall many of those "hackers", actually supporting the developers, always leaving a message such as: "If you like this game, then buy it! Support the developers, so they make more!" or something along those lines, DESPITE them cracking those games. There might be some truth there.
 
You can read other, similarly themed threads on this forum for my opinions and evidence to the contrary, although I do concede there are exceptions, but I still feel the majority of bootleggers do not ever buy a DVD of something they have for free. There may be a few that do, but by and large it hurts substantially more than it helps.

I also believe that if you only have $3,000-$4,000 of your own money invested in a feature film - giving it away for free online is a great option for exposure and building an audience. If it's your money and your decision, you can do whatever you want with it. Once you're working with investors (IE someone else's money) on the premise of getting it back, you are obligated to work towards making a profit.

Two very different scenarios. I tend to work with exponentially greater dollar amounts, so I cannot abide illegal downloads, and I'm less interested in being popular than I am in continuing to make a living making movies and TV shows. Having fans does not put food in my kids mouth.
 
You can read other, similarly themed threads on this forum for my opinions and evidence to the contrary, although I do concede there are exceptions, but I still feel the majority of bootleggers do not ever buy a DVD of something they have for free. There may be a few that do, but by and large it hurts substantially more than it helps.

I also believe that if you only have $3,000-$4,000 of your own money invested in a feature film - giving it away for free online is a great option for exposure and building an audience. If it's your money and your decision, you can do whatever you want with it. Once you're working with investors (IE someone else's money) on the premise of getting it back, you are obligated to work towards making a profit.

Two very different scenarios. I tend to work with exponentially greater dollar amounts, so I cannot abide illegal downloads, and I'm less interested in being popular than I am in continuing to make a living making movies and TV shows. Having fans does not put food in my kids mouth.

All good points. It all narrows down to your goal :) . I don't abide illegal downloads either, what I prefer doing is just giving them a demo, lower quality videos or a trial of something. But not the whole thing - I like to build my audience that way. Thats just me :D

By the way, Sonny, have you ever had experience with downloadable dvd's in terms of selling? And are there any legal matters that need some attention before selling? Copyright for instance. Is it any different from selling dvd's in physical form? :)
 
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@sonnyboo. You're absolutely right, if I had investors. At this point of my "career," I am the only investor, and nobody knows me. I happen to believe, rightly or wrongly, that my stuff is reasonably good, but I'm also disappointed that nobody knows me. All I'm really looking for at this point is exposure. So for people like me, I think, the cheapest way for exposure is piracy. ROI is not a consideration for me. Exposure is the only thing I'm looking for, and I'm willing to pay for it. But that's just me.

Best,
Aveek
 
Every single protection out there has at least 3-4 cracks.
Not ProtectDisc ( www.protectdisc.com ). It's unlikely that someone will post a pirated copy of an indie film anyway. Just stagger the release of about 10 decoy torrents and that will help if anyone ever does post an illegal torrent.

Don't ever GIVE your whole entire movie away. Is your movie a charity???? Post a trailer. Trailers have worked for years and years in promoting movies.
 
Technically, it isn't piracy if the copyright holder distributes a movie online, even via torrents, etc. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with doing that if you aren't beholding to investors. If it is worth a few thousand dollars to you to give your movie away for free, that is your right.

I can see the idea of self distribution, even for free if you get a million downloads, etc. but it's only worth anything if that is a provable 1 million, something an unbiased source can verify. You can prove to financiers for your next film that what you write and or direct is popular with a lot of people.

What if you don't get a million downloads, even for free?

When it comes to future movies where you intend to make a profit, or work with a production/distribution company, what will you tell them you learned about the business half of your first feature film? What helpful things about the process of selling your films did you learn?

I respectfully disagree with the idea that anyone will benefit from giving their movie away for free. The people who make a career and a living with film are the ones that people PAY to see their work. Potential investors or future collaborators who can bring money to the table may not even be swayed by 1 million free downloads because you have no proof that anyone will PAY to see your work, which is how they make money and the only way they will consider working with someone - if they can make money from it.

If your goal is to become a professional filmmaker, giving your film away for free seems rather contradictory to said goal. My opinions only work for me and not necessarily anyone else.

You can do whatever you want with your feature film. It's yours.
 
If you have taken money from investors for your film, then you are either misleading to them about ROI or your plan is flawed because there is no ROI with piracy.

Most likely he's the only investor, or he never prepared a return on investment for them. This is akin to auditing someone's garage sale. There's so little in it at this point, no one cares.


Why would someone pay for something they can get for free, first time or second time? I just don't see the business plan making any sense to endorse piracy.

Actually, it's called free advertising. We released a film a few years ago, and started selling copies, $5 each. We sold about 10 over a few months' time.

Then we released it in torrent form, via our favorite private torrent site, and since people were able to try before they buy, we sold about 3 times what we had sold previously.

If we hadn't given the movie away, no one would have bothered to watch it. Since we did give it away, many people watched it, and then since they liked it so much, they bought a copy from us, so they could watch the making of, commentary, etc. I've done it myself over 1,000 times.


Because you know what? I would never EVER have paid to see Battle Los Angeles. Since I saw it for free though, I didn't mind sitting to watch it. And you know what? Against all odds, I LIKED it. Now, I will buy the Blu Ray.

If I hadn't seen it at all, I would have never paid anything to see it ever. Since I saw it for free first, and liked it, I have no problem throwing down $25 for the Blu Ray.

You think Jonathan Liebsman would rather that I never see his film at all? No, I think he'll be glad that I buy the Blu Ray. If I were in his position (failing, critically blasted movie) I would be glad that there's anyone anywhere that might be able to help me financially down the road. And if you're a film director that doesn't feel like that, well, good luck. You're going to get really frustrated, and spend your whole life fighting piracy, which no one can ever beat. So good luck.

Everyone else will be making films, since that's what we love to do. We've done it for free for years, and expect nothing in return. If you have any other notion about filmmaking, like that you'll make money one day, just give up now. Get a job trading commodities.
 
Actually, it's called free advertising. We released a film a few years ago, and started selling copies, $5 each. We sold about 10 over a few months' time.

Then we released it in torrent form, via our favorite private torrent site, and since people were able to try before they buy, we sold about 3 times what we had sold previously.

So, you sold 30 copies.


Everyone else will be making films, since that's what we love to do. We've done it for free for years, and expect nothing in return. If you have any other notion about filmmaking, like that you'll make money one day, just give up now. Get a job trading commodities.

I am a former series 6 and series 7 licensed broker, so I sold commodities. I now make a living from film and television production. I don't have to wait for that one day. It gets harder and harder to make a living if people keep downloading movies illegally.

Understand that when you download a movie illegally, the people who made it did not get paid. You are in the vast minority of people who watched it without paying and never pay. What about the movies you've watched illegally that you didn't like? Because YOU didn't like it, means they don't deserve money? But you watched it. You obtained their intellectual property via illegal means, depriving them of the money they rightfully are owed so that you could try it out and decide you won't pay for it.

If someone wants to give their movie away, that is their right as a copyright holder. It makes business sense if you want to try to sell 1-100 DVD's, maybe even 1,000. If you want to make a living as a filmmaker, not just be a hobbyist (which there's nothing wrong with that), but don't expect giving the movie away for free to be a ticket to building much of a paying audience.
 
So, you sold 30 copies.

After giving away 600 digital copies. When we had given away 0 digital copies, we had sold 10, mostly friends.

I am a former series 6 and series 7 licensed broker, so I sold commodities. I now make a living from film and television production. I don't have to wait for that one day. It gets harder and harder to make a living if people keep downloading movies illegally.

Sorry you feel that way. My personal experience is the exact opposite. I've gotten more exposure and made more money releasing our films through "piracy" channels. It's not piracy when we give it away though, it's called advertising.

"Piracy" is just advertising against the producer's will.

Understand that when you download a movie illegally, the people who made it did not get paid. You are in the vast minority of people who watched it without paying and never pay.

Where are your facts on this? The musical artist Tech N9ne sold 25,000 copies of his album Absolute Power in the first 3 months of release. Frustrated, he posted it online for everyone to download for free, with a note that if you like it, please buy it.

Over the next week his sales spiked by 57,000 copies.

What about the movies you've watched illegally that you didn't like? Because YOU didn't like it, means they don't deserve money? But you watched it.

Only because I could watch it for free. Otherwise, I would continue to ignore it. But for free? I watched Hairspray for free on a plane once, and thought I would hate it. I liked it, and have since bought 2 different copies for my mom. If I had never watched the film, would that have been for the better or worse of the product as a whole? Please, regale me with tales of "the smaller the audience, the bigger the opportunity", I could stand to be entertained.

You obtained their intellectual property via illegal means, depriving them of the money they rightfully are owed so that you could try it out and decide you won't pay for it.

Exactly. Or I ignore the product entirely. Giving them a 0% chance at earning any of my money. I think they're sporting fellows, and they'd rather have at least a 5% chance. I mean, some statistical chance is better than the void of a statistical chance, right? I ask you, having worked in commodities, you'll have a better idea of the mathematical plausibility of it.

If someone wants to give their movie away, that is their right as a copyright holder. It makes business sense if you want to try to sell 1-100 DVD's, maybe even 1,000. If you want to make a living as a filmmaker, not just be a hobbyist (which there's nothing wrong with that), but don't expect giving the movie away for free to be a ticket to building much of a paying audience.

Really, do you realize that studios do this, EVERY DAY!? It's called Test Screening. I've seen literally 20 movies at test screenings. Where studios are giving away their product, to see how people respond to it.

Because if they charged people to see a movie they hadn't heard of? People wouldn't want to see it. But since it's free, they will see it, and tell their friends. Studios get important marketing information from this process. Which is what they should do to replace piracy.

But hey, those of us making movies, growing our fanbases, and getting interest from major studios know all of this, and are using every single change in the industry to further ourselves, not complaining that it's limiting our entire industry. So keep bitching. No one cares and it can't be changed, focus on making films.

The bottom line is, if you wouldn't make films for free, as a hobby, then don't try to do it professionally. All you do is pollute film festivals with crap and bore the rest of us. If you love making films, and you're good at it (two different things) then maybe you have a shot at doing it professionally, which is really the only time you would even have to think twice about piracy impacting your earnings. And if you're worried about that, again, you shouldn't be making films if you're mostly worried about the money. It's a lot easier and safer to make money on the stock market.
 
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"Piracy" is just advertising against the producer's will.

No it isn't. It is defined as intellectual property THEFT. It is illegal and it's not good for filmmakers. "Piracy" or simple Piracy without quotes - is preventing the filmmakers from monetary compensation for the right to see the work they made.

Only because I could watch it for free. Otherwise, I would continue to ignore it. But for free? I watched Hairspray for free on a plane once, and thought I would hate it.

EXACTLY! You didn't pay to see it on the airline, but the airline DID paid the filmmakers via distribution...That's the point. If you see a movie "for free" on cable tv or regular TV, the channel PAID them for that. You keep trying to justify that if you like the movie, then you'd buy it. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. You could watch a movie on sites like HULU or CRACKLE.COM for "free", but there are ads in it. Why? Because someone has to pay for these movies, good or bad (because good or bad is SUBJECTIVE)....

There won't be any movies if people keep downloading them without SOMEONE paying for them. You seem to be mistaking "free" as simply you not paying for it, but the legitimate ways to see a movie mean someone other than you is paying the filmmakers. Bootlegging means NO ONE pays, unless they like it and decide to purchase.

My evidence? The simple math of the number of illegal downloads versus legitimate purchases of CD's, DVD's, etc. See the decline of profit versus the increase in bandwidth and bootlegging? That's not a hard one to see.

Do you honestly think that everyone, everywhere - especially in every 3rd world country that is NOT the United States (think globally and outside of your own experience) actually buys the DVD or Blu Ray once they download it online from a torrent site even when they completely love the movie?

Exactly. Or I ignore the product entirely. Giving them a 0% chance at earning any of my money. I think they're sporting fellows, and they'd rather have at least a 5% chance. I mean, some statistical chance is better than the void of a statistical chance, right? I ask you, having worked in commodities, you'll have a better idea of the mathematical plausibility of it.

That's a strawman argument. The mathematical plausibility is that they do not want people to have access to a perfect digital copy of their film without being compensated for it, especially when it is being made available for free to millions of people for free. That's not the same as giving out screeners to reviewers. That's like mailing out 100,000,000 free movie tickets and hoping that the people who like it will pay something at the box office after they see it.

When it comes to BATTLE LOS ANGELES - downloading it illegally, if you had not liked it - then you would not be buying it. How would you have ever known unless you waited to see it on HBO or DVD or whatever - when the filmmakers would have been compensated for you getting to see it? As a consumer you have the right to ignore movies you don't think you'd like. It is NOT your right to violate the filmmakers rights as copyright holders to be compensated (by someone) to let you see it.

Look, as I already said. If you choose to self distribute via torrents and it increases sales for you - more power to you. I already give away shorts for free on sites like YouTube and Vimeo. For a feature film with significant investment - I just cannot see how I can convince anyone to give me the money to hire name actors and expect me to make a return on investment by giving it away for free online. I can make a significant profit on a feature film using traditional distribution - but not as much as I used to even 3 years ago - because of bootlegging.

Eventually, the law will catch up to Internet piracy. Right now, we have lawmakers who think the Internet is a series of tubes. It may take 20-30 years, but once the government catches up to the technology, you'll see a massive shift and suddenly the Internet as a free-for-all will get stomped on. When cars were first invented, it took decades before they came up with speed limits.

That's my hypothesis, and may not come to pass, but I think it is likely to occur, just not in the immediate future.
 
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Really, do you realize that studios do this, EVERY DAY!? It's called Test Screening. I've seen literally 20 movies at test screenings. Where studios are giving away their product, to see how people respond to it.

I don't think you know what a "test screening" is then. That is when they show a film to about 100-300 people for feedback during post production/editing the film. The FX and music are temp. It's a tool to refine the movie to an audience - not as a sales tool to promote the film. This is how the studio gauges HOW they will market the film and how they can change it as needed.

How do you get to keep a perfect digital copy forever for repeat viewings from the test screening? How can you share it to limitless numbers of people online?

This example is incomparable to Internet Piracy. You would be better off comparing it to why do Record Companies give away songs for free on the radio - more apropos, but still not reciprocal. That's because they are single songs, not the entire album, and it is at the whim of the radio station, not the user to play which songs and when. Also, every single song played on the radio has to pay a royalty to the publishing company (via ASCAP or BMI) to go to the songwriters...

Your arguments read like "Well, a restaurant gives away free samples, so it's the same thing as internet piracy", when it's more like saying that you can go steal unlimited free food from a restaurant that doesn't lock their doors, but you think most people will pay for it if the food is good, even though they can get it for free and everyone's stealing from the place anyways, so that makes it okay. Sure, a very small percentage might pay, but most will not. Why should they? It's FREE, right?

All you do is pollute film festivals with crap and bore the rest of us.

Nice. Very classy. Even if that's a general statement, not cool.
 
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Clearly there are two different issues here.

If, as a filmmaker, I made a movie but couldn't get distribution then I might well make it free to download online. After all one of the great joys of making films is having people watch them.

But that's not piracy in any shape or form and yo can't say that just because you made that decision as an indie filmmaker it should apply to everyone making movies everywhere.

If someone hasn't put their movie up for free download then it is not within your rights to download it. I only evert download TV shows that I forget to record because I figure I've already paid for them just forgot to Sky+ it. But if you're not willing to pay for a cinema ticket or the DVD (rent or buy) then you shouldn't get to watch the movie.

This 'try before you buy' idea is absurd. Isn't that what trailers are for? Showing the whole film and then asking people to buy is a terrible business strategy. It's like the free samples store in the supermarket giving you all your groceries in the hope that you'll buy these groceries again. There's a reason why they only give you little tasters...
 
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