Community Project

[NickClapper]

My greatest regret, during my time on IndieTalk, has been my failure to get a community project off the ground. We came pretty close with the organ lottery project, but it never quite worked out. The past few days has seen a new member trying to get another community project off the ground, but is, I suspect, going to fall into a number of inevitable traps.

I am currently studying for the final exams of my academic career (*sob*) so am just sitting in libraries all day, every day. I'd like something to break it up a little bit (in addition to the couple of projects I am, slowly, working on). So I've come up with a new way to do a community project.

If you would like to participate in this project as a director (or in a shooting capacity), I need the following information out of you:

What actors are at your disposal? [i.e. two men and a woman]
What locations are at your disposal? [i.e. a house, a bar, an abandoned quarry]
Can you record decent quality sound? [i.e. yes]

Please be conservative with your responses. In order for this project to be realistic and work, I need to be sure that people can (and will) shoot their scenes in the allocated manner.

Once I have a bunch of participants, I will go away and write a short script that incorporates these various shooting units into a single coherent story. I will ensure that no member has more than a maximum of two days shooting (though generally will try and keep it to what can be done in a single day). If you cannot record decent quality sound, I will give you no dialogue to shoot. Everything will be kept as simple as possible (within the constraints of a very tricky project!) so that we have the maximum chance of success.

Additionally, if you are not willing to direct (or arrange the production of) a shooting unit, there are loads of other roles that are required:

Composer
Editor - individual units should edit their scenes but a central editor will put it all together and try and ensure that the editing matches throughout.
Post-sound
VFX - will not be VFX heavy, but we can incorporate some if there's someone who can supply the talent.
Marketing - with so many cooks, would be great to have someone responsible for pushing the film.

In order to make this attempt as successful as possible, I will only accept forum regulars into the scheme. New members (and I'm talking people who've only been around a few weeks) are welcome to input and help out, but it is of paramount importance that I know people will stick around and see their unit through to completion.

The deadline for signing up is 18th April 2014, giving people two weeks, after which we will allocate two months (and a bit) to complete production of your scenes, meaning a shooting deadline of 30th June 2014. As I have said, should be no more than a day of filming over the course of two months, so if you can't commit to that then please don't!

I really hope this works, and I think it can. Let me know if you have any thoughts and get signing up!

Current units:
David.rhsc (San Francisco, USA)
cheeseandachallenge (Wellington, New Zealand)
Cracker Funk (Richmond, USA)
wheatgrinder
Flicker Pictures (Boston, USA)
mad_hatter (Birmingham, England)
Dreadylocks (Omaha, USA)
Lucky Hardwood (New Orleans, USA)
ChimpPhobiaFilms (Ohio, USA)

Fence-sitting-maybe-merchants:
WalterB
Dreadylocks
sfoster
mad_hatter
ChimpPhobiaFilms
ItDonnedOnMe
jax_rox
Flicker Pictures

Music team
JoshL
mike mcguill

Sound team
mike mcguill

Sound maybes
AudioPostExpert
Alcove Audio

Marketing maybes
RayW

And remember to fill in this form if you want to have a shooting unit in the film!

(Of course, if you're local to an existing unit, why not team up?)

 

[NickClapper]

No tripod sounds rather extreme.. if we can't have any style then what is the point of "directing"

I would hope that restricting to handheld wouldn't significantly detract from the director being able to exert their style on the piece, but it's important to remember that this project is about people coming together and trying to produce something artistically unified.

My gut instinct is that the easiest way to include people and achieve that unity is to say, shoot handheld. Or, perhaps, shoot handheld for any CU but you can use tripods for wides and landscape shots..? Either way, I think you get the idea, and hopefully small restrictions on equipment won't hamper style too much.

Suggestion: Perhaps it could be an anthology/episodic type thing? So less trying to sync everything together cohesively, but a series of very short films all tied together by a more universal one. That's essentially what we're doing now, just released in a different format - but it allows people more freedom with their directing styles, as the differences won't be particularly jarring.

Or maybe that goes too far from the original idea, and detracts from the "several people across the world make a film in separate locations without ever meeting physically meeting eachother" thing

I am keen for this to not be a basic anthology project, simply because I think that's not a community project in the same sense. We could stick all the Secret Santa shorts together and call it the Indietalk Christmas Anthology if we wanted. But you kind of preempt my response with your second paragraph there: this project is about creating a short film, with a single storyline, that weaves together the work of directors, cinematographers, editors and sound editors, composers...etc from across the world. An anthology would, perhaps, be easier, because I could just say 'go out and shoot something using a RUBBER DUCKY' and then stick them all together and call it 'RUBBER DUCKY', but I feel like we can go one better at Indietalk

 

[AudioPostExpert]

The third could also have elements of Sci-Fi/Horror but I'm inclined to agree with those who have said that it's the weakest idea.

That's a shame, I thought it had the most potential. I thought of it potentially as more of a thriller than a drama and potentially easier as a group project. For example, we have a good logical reason to bring in each specific character (from the different locations) as the victims discover each other. They have a logical reason for chatting on Skype and interacting specifically with each other, to solve a mystery which will dramatically affect their lives. I just felt that this story offered the most filmmaking flexibility. Of course, it all depends on how the story (whichever story) is fleshed out and I have no real objections to either of the others.

I personally, would try to avoid handheld shots unless there is a particularly good storytelling reason for it. Unless done exceptionally well, nothing screams "amateur" as immediately to me as handheld shots. Maybe that's just to me though?

I would also be keen to avoid an anthology/episodic type film. As cheeseandachallenge stated, it would be far easier to make an anthology but far more difficult IMHO, to tell a story which flows and has pace and drama, rather than a bunch of individual (albeit related) stories which don't. Especially seeing as we're making a short to start with, rather than a feature length film made up of a collection of shorts.

G

 

[NickClapper]

That's a shame, I thought it had the most potential. I thought of it potentially as more of a thriller than a drama and potentially easier as a group project. For example, we have a good logical reason to bring in each specific character (from the different locations) as the victims discover each other. They have a logical reason for chatting on Skype and interacting specifically with each other, to solve a mystery which will dramatically affect their lives. I just felt that this story offered the most filmmaking flexibility. Of course, it all depends on how the story (whichever story) is fleshed out and I have no real objections to either of the others.

I take that onboard. Absolutely not ruling anything out, just seeking feedback.

I personally, would try to avoid handheld shots unless there is a particularly good storytelling reason for it. Unless done exceptionally well, nothing screams "amateur" as immediately to me as handheld shots. Maybe that's just to me though?

I think maybe you're conflating 'non-tripod/dolly' with shakycam, which isn't what I meant. Shoulder rigs would be absolutely fine and most camera ops can hold a pretty much static shot with a shoulder rig, but it also allows for continuous and organic movement.

As I say, it's up to others to chime in and say what they think about a restriction like that - if people don't like it then I'm happy to scrap it - but I just think it might give more freedom.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I think maybe you're conflating 'non-tripod/dolly' with shakycam...

You're right, I was, I really should stay out of camera and camera technique discussions!

G

 

[NickClapper]

You're right, I was, I really should stay out of camera and camera technique discussions!

G

Ha! I bet you'd love that response more often on sound issues

 

[sfoster]

I would hope that restricting to handheld wouldn't significantly detract from the director being able to exert their style on the piece, but it's important to remember that this project is about people coming together and trying to produce something artistically unified.

My gut instinct is that the easiest way to include people and achieve that unity is to say, shoot handheld. Or, perhaps, shoot handheld for any CU but you can use tripods for wides and landscape shots..? Either way, I think you get the idea, and hopefully small restrictions on equipment won't hamper style too much.



I am keen for this to not be a basic anthology project, simply because I think that's not a community project in the same sense. We could stick all the Secret Santa shorts together and call it the Indietalk Christmas Anthology if we wanted. But you kind of preempt my response with your second paragraph there: this project is about creating a short film, with a single storyline, that weaves together the work of directors, cinematographers, editors and sound editors, composers...etc from across the world. An anthology would, perhaps, be easier, because I could just say 'go out and shoot something using a RUBBER DUCKY' and then stick them all together and call it 'RUBBER DUCKY', but I feel like we can go one better at Indietalk

The rubber ducky thing implies that they are all separate stories, but it's already been established that we are going to use one unified script.

Sure we could cater to the lowest common denominator, say people can't use any lights except practicals and can't use any tripod or dolly and always have to use a Xmm lens at Y meters and only frame with cowboy shots, but then you're taking away the fun and creativity IMO.

Unless we take that approach, it's not going to be unified - people are going to be better at lighting, have nicer cameras, more or less shake, better or worse acting. These things will be present. Why not just embrace it?

As a viewer i think it would be much more interesting to see different styles, and see how different people handle the storyline. It would be less interesting to see everyone hampered.

What's the point of watching something made by 5 different directors if they're all trying to film exactly the same? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

 

[wheatgrinder]

OK, Im still reading the thread, if this is on.. IM IN MAN.. I almost MISSED IT!

I have better than cheap sound, better than cheap gear, and prety ok chops.. I could field a few good actors and smallish crew. Heck Id pay em some just to get the best ones I could.

 

[wheatgrinder]

My input on story structure. Embrace discrete locations \ productions IN the story style.

You could do this many ways, here is one way:

As production quality\style differences will be most noticeable when "intercut" we just dont do that!

We keep each remote production "temporally" distinct from one another. For example, if each remote unit production story segment takes place in is its own "day" and no cutting between "days" is in the edit, then each remote productions uniqueness will be less noticeable or at least less distracting.

Various approaches to this such as "book ends" Where some of the remote units produce two scenes where the INTENT is to have a different production style between the "book ends" could be utilized.

Just thoughts.

 

[Cracker Funk]

This is gonna be EPIC!

I vote for #1, but am down for whatever.

I've decided I need to stay in Richmond for this shoot, but cheese and IDOM, I'd be delighted to work with either of you on most any future project. 48HFP maybe?

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

I've decided I need to stay in Richmond for this shoot, but cheese and IDOM, I'd be delighted to work with either of you on most any future project. 48HFP maybe?

I think this is directed at me, but I assume you meant sfoster. I live in New Zealand

Of course, I'm still open to collaboration!

 

[Cracker Funk]

I think this is directed at me, but I assume you meant sfoster. I live in New Zealand

Of course, I'm still open to collaboration!

Haha, you're right. My brain farted. I think it's highly more likely that I might work with sfoster on a 48HFP weekend, but maybe I named you because I had positive thoughts of you in my head.

 

[NickClapper]

Sure we could cater to the lowest common denominator, say people can't use any lights except practicals and can't use any tripod or dolly and always have to use a Xmm lens at Y meters and only frame with cowboy shots, but then you're taking away the fun and creativity IMO.

Unless we take that approach, it's not going to be unified - people are going to be better at lighting, have nicer cameras, more or less shake, better or worse acting. These things will be present. Why not just embrace it?

As a viewer i think it would be much more interesting to see different styles, and see how different people handle the storyline. It would be less interesting to see everyone hampered.

What's the point of watching something made by 5 different directors if they're all trying to film exactly the same? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

I'm not telling everyone that they have to film exactly the same, just trying to suggest that placing a couple of technical restrictions might curb the extent to which each thread is radically different. I don't think anyone would suggest that the true creativity of directing is in which camera you use, or whether you use a tripod, so there's still plenty of scope for creativity. Of course, if people are against those restrictions, then I'm happy to scrap them.

My input on story structure. Embrace discrete locations \ productions IN the story style.

You could do this many ways, here is one way:

As production quality\style differences will be most noticeable when "intercut" we just dont do that!

We keep each remote production "temporally" distinct from one another. For example, if each remote unit production story segment takes place in is its own "day" and no cutting between "days" is in the edit, then each remote productions uniqueness will be less noticeable or at least less distracting.

Various approaches to this such as "book ends" Where some of the remote units produce two scenes where the INTENT is to have a different production style between the "book ends" could be utilized.

Just thoughts.

This is an interesting post and it taps into something which I think is the key difference between this project (how I envisage it) and other projects of a similar ilk.

I want the film to be ONE STORY, told through multiple, intertwining strands, rather than SEVERAL STORIES told with a unifying theme/event. Anthology films, however they're dressed up, are great, but there also a dime a dozen. What I'm aiming to do is create a single short film made by 6 or 8 or 12 directors, where the story is told with no concessions to geography. It just happens that, instead of pretending one section is in New Zealand, one section is in The Netherlands and another is in Oregon, we will actually have a director filming in each of those locations.

So yes, we could have each unit being distinct from each other, but, in my mind, each unit's filming won't be a self-contained short film and will only work within the wider structure of the film.

DISCLAIMER: You are all welcome to tell me that I'm being stupid about this and that you want to do it differently! I think community projects rely on one person taking a lead and trying to push it through, but, at the same time, it's a community project and everyone should have a say in what we do.

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

I think your thoughts are right Nick. If there could be some way that different filmmaking styles could incorporated into the story (though the only way I can think of that is for each section be a different "news report" or something like that, or to do the meta film within a film thing - but that's a bit of a cliche).

Other suggestion, though probably not a feasible one, is have the filmmaking style progress through the film in support and reflection of the narrative. But this gives you just another variable to work with. And personally, I don't know how I'd define my style, as I like to think I'm developing and changing with each project as my ideologies and thoughts of film change, and as different stories call for different stylistic choices - I don't really want to become a filmmaker who can easily be defined! So I guess that means I'm happy to wait to see and what I am given, and then start thinking about how I'll film it (and then discuss with the group).

I am perfectly happy for you to take the lead, I just tend to be a bit of a control freak myself, one of the reasons I think this mode of art appeals to me. I think it's import for people to question and contribute to ideas, but I am happy for you to (and believe you should) be the one making the final call on decisions.

but maybe I named you because I had positive thoughts of you in my head.

Ahaha that must be it

 

[mad_hatter]

Nick, question for you... How long do you envision this film being?

If we're talking about perhaps a 16 minute film, made by 8 separate units, that would only equate to 2 minutes per unit. That maybe difficult to intercut between unit 1, to unit 3, to unit 5, back to unit 1, to unit 6, to unit 4, to unit 8, back to unit 4, back to unit 8... Do you get where I'm going with this? You could end up with scenes only lasting 30 seconds... I'm sure you'll figure this out as you write, but I think it's just worth baring in mind.

 

[NickClapper]

Nick, question for you... How long do you envision this film being?

If we're talking about perhaps a 16 minute film, made by 8 separate units, that would only equate to 2 minutes per unit. That maybe difficult to intercut between unit 1, to unit 3, to unit 5, back to unit 1, to unit 6, to unit 4, to unit 8, back to unit 4, back to unit 8... Do you get where I'm going with this? You could end up with scenes only lasting 30 seconds... I'm sure you'll figure this out as you write, but I think it's just worth baring in mind.

The length of the film will depend on how many units there are participating, for sure. Most of the people who've filled in my survey have said they'd be comfortable shooting 2 or 3 pages. So we probably are only talking a couple of minutes of film between each unit. But, of course, this is something that I'll explore when writing because each thread has to be dramatically sound, first and foremost.

When I see 'intertwining', I don't really mean lots of cutting between the threads. I just mean that I don't want 8 separate stories to play one after another. I think it will become more apparent in the writing process, but I want each unit to fill in some of the gaps for other units - so that we get exposition carried over from one thread to another. I do see the film concluding with intercutting between the threads, but that won't happen every 20 seconds - the threads will play out, with each contributing more detail and information towards a conclusion that they will all participate in. If that makes sense!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Ha! I bet you'd love that response more often on sound issues

Maybe to some extent but it's not clear cut, even in my case and mentioning camera technique, because the camera technique is going to very significantly affect what I do in audio-post! While I don't need to know the details of how to do or achieve a specific camera technique, I absolutely do need to know what feel/effect the director was trying to achieve by using that technique. The obvious problem here, is when a shot/camera technique is chosen based largely on what is easiest, cheapest or most practical to achieve, because not only will the footage (at least slightly) compromise/affect the desired feel/effect but the sound design will likely be constrained to enhance that compromise still further!

It's for this reason that the reverse is just as true; what is going to happen or could happen in audio-post should also be influencing the shots/camera techniques, because at the end of the day it's how the completed shot/sequence (including sound) is going to affect the audience.

BTW, I've taken your light-hearted (and often true) statement and turned it into a "soap box" opportunity, sorry about that!

G

 

[AudioPostExpert]

As production quality\style differences will be most noticeable when "intercut" we just dont do that! We keep each remote production "temporally" distinct from one another.

While your suggestion would make it easier technically and practically from both the shooting and post-production points of view, it would make effective story telling far more difficult. Not to say that we can't have a brief element of the story which refers to some previous time/event, just that my personal opinion is that the story shouldn't be compromised by fear of taking the risk of inter-cutting between different units/directors.

A possible approach might be that the film has to be edited differently than indicated in the original script and/or that one (or more) units needs to shoot later than the others to accommodate any changes required to the script to make a particular unit's footage/style more acceptable to the story telling from a convincing/logical point of view. If this sort of approach is taken, then each of the directors would need to agree before starting that the storytelling (the quality of the finished film) takes priority over any other considerations, for example, the amount of screen time a particular director/unit ends up with. I'm also sure it would be difficult to write a good script which incorporates the potential for this degree of flexibility but it's just a suggestion!

G

 

[WalterB]

.......... If this sort of approach is taken, then each of the directors would need to agree before starting that the storytelling (the quality of the finished film) takes priority over any other considerations, for example, the amount of screen time a particular director/unit ends up with..........

With any approach storytelling should be more important than egos.
Participating units should be able to boost their egos just by contributing, not by the amount of screentime

Let's say it will be shot in New Zealand, Europe and USA, there is also time difference that should be considered in the script.

 

[wheatgrinder]

I support the directors vision, I have ideas and thoughts of my own, but Nick, you own it and Ill trust you. Your right about the "separate stories in a theme" thing.. its the first thing that came to my mind and thus it the first thing that comes to everyone's mind, in other words.. PREDICTABLE and cliche. Fight it Nick! If I make another cliche suggestion, call me on it!

I have a long (8 week) vacation coming up end of June! Just give me an excuse to travel! I could probably swing one more domestic US flight from my frequent flyer miles.

 

[wheatgrinder]

yeah, Im starting to get the vibe.

It will be difficult to create a consistent quality though the different remote efforts, but not impossible. The story should not be dumbed down, cliche-ified or otherwise constrained by the limitations of the various remotes, rather the story should DEMAND the need for many locations and many characters.