"Captain America: The Winter Soldier"

A

Aspiring Mogul

I just saw "Captain America: Winter Soldier", and, as always, fanboy movies inspire me to get into the industry. I have been wondering, however, if the fan-boy genres should be re-invented for the new century - Captain America first came out in the 1940's, and even Star Trek is almost half a century old.

That said, it's a good movie, focusing more on live-action fights than CGI, and the plot isn't as formulaic as the previous ones - though any fanboy could predict the twists and turns. And the story did try to deal with character development, though not very successfully. Still, it's worth an evening of my time.
 
I thought it wasn't half bad. Having perused the critics' reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, I was hoping for this 'edgy commentary on the growing military-industrial-surveillance complex.'

So I'm disappointed. Initially it seemed to be going that way. And I started thinking, hey ...well, maybe Disney really is capable of rocking the boat a little. But no, it wasn't to be. Pinning it on Hydra is a big, fat cop-out. Forget about supposed "surprising social or political commentary" from this film. It's more like wishy-washy social commentary.

All the same, like I said, it's still a not-half-bad entertainment.
 
Richy, you and I almost ALWAYS see eye-to-eye on films. This is not one of those occasions. I think the overall plot of Cap 2 is incredibly ballsy. Think of it in terms of metaphor, dude.

Hydra isn't a cop-out, they simply represent the most powerful of the powerful in our military industrial complex (and thus, our government). In my opinion, Cap 2 is blatantly saying that there is essentially a Hydra within our actual government!

In this movie, the American Government is THE BAD GUY! This wouldn't mean much if the story were a flight of fancy. But it's not.

In real life, the NSA is wire-tapping whoever they want, without warrant. Our federal government can legally imprison, indefinitely, any American citizen, without warrant or anything resembling due process. And that's not to mention what horrors our drones commit on foreign soils.

"You hold a gun to everyone on Earth and call it protection. This isn't freedom, this is fear". -- Captain America

I can't think of a superhero movie, let alone any blockbuster, that is even slightly as subversive. And on top of that, it's just a fun action movie. Bravo, Marvel! Bravo!
 
Putting peoples political views aside for a moment....

What do you mean by "the fan-boy genres should be re-invented
for the new century"? Cap was updated into the new century
in a creative way in my opinion. In fact I've found Marvel film to
be quite good at updating their characters into the 21st century.

What do you mean by "re-invented"?
 
directorik said:
Putting peoples political views aside for a moment....

What do you mean by "the fan-boy genres should be re-invented
for the new century"? Cap was updated into the new century
in a creative way in my opinion. In fact I've found Marvel film to
be quite good at updating their characters into the 21st century.

What do you mean by "re-invented"?
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I don't know.

As you know, I've been developing my concepts for my SF series, and, as I keep watching the various ST episodes, I think they were relevant for the last century but not necessarily this one. For example, when they talk on the screens, the screens are two-dimensional, as opposed to holographic. Another thing is that they made big issues out of having an African-American captain (Benjamin Sisko) and a woman captain (Janeway), but that's not such a big deal now, with an African-American President, a South African black President, and women leaders in Britain, Canada, and India.

Another thing is, for example, the concept of AI. The sci-fi fans know of the old story of how a super-intelligent computer or internet can take over the world. But what about exploring the deeper concepts of artificial intelligence, like whether creativity can be programmed, or - the big one - if we can ever truly create consciousness?

I have various scripts, and my pilot is half done, but I think these concepts should be explored in various episodes.


Now, getting back to Captain America and the various superheroes, I have become a fan of Robert Downey Jr #1 and its sequels, and I love Batman. But I keep wondering ... if I was to try and start a comic-book franchise from scratch, how would I do it? For example, if Captain America was to get the serum and become a superhero, wouldn't everyone try and replicate it? If so, then he would rapidly become a nobody again. And that's the big flaw with that genre - the writers assume no one would try and replicate the experiments that gave the powers to the hero. But I haven't given as much thought to this as I have to you-know-what.
 
OK, Rik, here are some issues to be considered for a revised superhero genre:

If Green Lantern wore a strip of cloth across his eyes, would anyone not recognize him as Hal Jordan? In a similar vein, would the staff at the Daily Planet be fooled by Kal-El wearing glasses? I doubt it.

As for Green Lantern, if he got a ring from a dying alien, wouldn't he have the duty to turn it over to the Pentagon's Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)? And, if Kal-El showed up, wouldn't that have changed the geopolitical situation, as the various national powers considered the implications of an alien invasion?

How about Wonder Woman coming from an island of Amazons? Wouldn't those chicks have faced an invasion from any mid-sized power?

If I was ever to be lucky enough to work on a new superhero franchise, I would answer these questions. That's why I say the fan-boy genres have to be reinvented for the new century.
 
Aspiring Mogul said:
OK, Rik, here are some issues to be considered for a revised superhero genre:

If Green Lantern wore a strip of cloth across his eyes, would anyone not recognize him as Hal Jordan? In a similar vein, would the staff at the Daily Planet be fooled by Kal-El wearing glasses? I doubt it.

As for Green Lantern, if he got a ring from a dying alien, wouldn't he have the duty to turn it over to the Pentagon's Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)? And, if Kal-El showed up, wouldn't that have changed the geopolitical situation, as the various national powers considered the implications of an alien invasion?

How about Wonder Woman coming from an island of Amazons? Wouldn't those chicks have faced an invasion from any mid-sized power?

If I was ever to be lucky enough to work on a new superhero franchise, I would answer these questions. That's why I say the fan-boy genres have to be reinvented for the new century.
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So you're willing to suspend disbelief, when it comes to the super powers of the super hero, but you take exception to suspending disbelief regarding human reaction to them? ;)

Personally, I could never really suspend my disbelief that much, and so I was only really a fan of Batman. At least he didn't fly in the comic books. I liked Daredevil too. And I loved Peter Parker, and so I liked Spiderman.

I think all the critics were sold a tale about how this movie has a real "story" and so they all write about how this movie has depth. I looked and I looked, and I couldn't really find it. It was just another good guys vs. bad guys, black and white movie, to me.

I look forward to your superhero franchise. Mine should be coming out sometime this summer ;)
 
Trueindie, I'm not doing a superhero franchise - yet - but I'd love to one day. Right now, I'm developing my SF franchise, and it's coming along nicely.
 
CF, great discussion. I really appreciate your point of view.

I had considered that angle, and I think it's legitimate, of course. And it works as a metaphor, like you said. That is, it sort of works for me. For one thing, it might impel some viewers to compare what our governments and military contractors are doing with some of the behavior of police states, past and present, in this case the Nazis.

I agree that's ballsy. I agree there's something substantive there. I think they're in the right ballpark, at least.

But I'll try to clarify why I still think it's ultimately a cop-out. Ultimately, it's a cop-out because, literally (while, okay, perhaps not metaphorically, as you say), the real bad guys turn out to be not us, but them. Instead, it's Hydra --fictitious Nazis who have infiltrated us and ours. Which, at least on one level, so far as I can see, ultimately pulls the rug out from under that otherwise noteworthy commentary you have described.

From a metaphorical point of view, perhaps that doesn't matter. But from a more literal point of view, it seems to me we have ourselves a scapegoat. Actually, we have a bogeyman who will be our scapegoat. Instead of what could have been unflinching self-criticism and self-analysis, we have an alien force (an imaginary Nazi organization) to place the blame upon.

Contrary to, or in spite of, that point, there is another possible, positive aspect or outcome to the narrative as you see it which interests me. Whether or not my view that it's a cop-out has any merit, there might be something worthwhile that some viewers might take away from it, something, in fact, that the filmmakers may have intended. Even though it turns out to be Hydra who is the real culprit, it may occur to some viewers to consider what would happen if a such regime, something far less benign than the one currently in place, did/does come to power. It will have this military/surveillance apparatus at its disposal. Is that okay?

So hey, I didn't say I didn't like the movie. I only said I was disappointed with that aspect. But I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'll take what I can get. So anyway, I pretty much agree. Bravo, Marvel, for doing as much as you did do. With just a little caveat. =P
 
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It puts the government as bug guys. So what?
I'll be glad to see a movie, which shows the weakness Israeli government :)
 
Aspiring Mogul, you probably got me wrong. I would like to see a movie made by Israeli people that illustrates the Israeli government as not a good one. Not movies made by Palestinians, who illustrate Israeli people as oppressors and devils, which is wrong, because Palestinians in Israel live much better than most of Israelians.

But the point is not about Israel. What's so bad about movies, which illustrate corruption and weakness of the government?
 
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It doesn't just portray the American government as the big bad wolf, but all of the superpower governments, just with a faction of the USA as the leaders/instigators. The TV show Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. had a tie in to Cap 2 that gives a lot more of the big picture. Sure, the plot doesn't show the government as the Big Boss in the plot to subvert freedom, but it does resonate with real events that are happening all over the world right now.
 
Lucky Hardwood said:
It doesn't just portray the American government as the big bad wolf, but all of the superpower governments, just with a faction of the USA as the leaders/instigators. The TV show Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. had a tie in to Cap 2 that gives a lot more of the big picture. Sure, the plot doesn't show the government as the Big Boss in the plot to subvert freedom, but it does resonate with real events that are happening all over the world right now.
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Well, we're talking about democratic countries. Freedom of speech and self-expression. :)
Most of the audience understands that movie is movie, and shouldn't be taken too personal.
Maybe the USA government in Marvel universe is corrupt, but you don't have to tie it too much to the real world USA government.
 
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