Another round of beginner questions.

Buddy Greenfield

Buddy Greenfield

After writing for a few years and discovering how lack of budget can be an effective creative tool as opposed to a limitation, I realized that perhaps I too could make my very own *relatively inexpensively short films. However, before I do so, I have a few million basics questions that I hope you guys can help me out with and/or point me towards some essential online reading material that will begin the enlightenment.

My main concern is understanding the correlation of film type, lens settings, lighting, and filters.

As a practical example, I have a 16 mm Bolex and wish to shoot one of my shorts called "What lies outside the closet" which in fact takes place IN a closet. With camera type and a location void of any natural light in mind, which type of color film, amount and kind of light and filters (If any) would you suggest I explore to at least get something on film?

Also please:

What kind of light meter should I consider buying or avoiding and will it possibly help make things a bit clearer as to this correlation I hope to understand?

And finally (for now) is there some kind of structured guideline I can follow to not only effectively test, but also learn from while shooting my 1st 100 ft test reel?

I appreciate any help you guys can offer.
:)
 
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In doing my short which takes place in a closet, but won't be shot in a closet (instead a small room), I'm hoping to get the lighting to look as if the interior of the closet is simply lit by an old shaded lamp, so there is some darkness yet ample facial illumination, but I am worried about over lighting the area acting as my set because the 650w light I have is like a flood. I always read that people seem to think they have too much light and yet it translates to film as almost too little. I know it's hard to say, but do you think a 100w soft bulb in a shaded table lamp as a practical and kind of fill light, my 650w with a sheet on a stand in front of it to diffuse and somekind of back light will be too much, not enough or could work?

Any thoughts?
Thanks :)
 
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Buddy Greenfield said:
I have a Super 8 Canon which i picked up after seeing Zensteve's (I think) Trunk Fiction (although mine isn't a sweet 1014 or even 814, hell , it's not even a 514 and doesn't run at 24fps, but by I'll get one!) because i really liked the look they were getting and no doubt I'd be more than happy to aspire to that level.
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Aww, that's nice. :blush:

Was a goofy story, but was fine for getting the knack of film. Breaking the Canon out again in a few weeks, for an HDV/Super-8 combo.

I'm a bit late to the party, but how's your production coming along? :)
 
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Steve,

I still have my eye on one of those Canon 1014XL's. I wouldn't mind having a Bolex Macro Zoom 160 either.(Capable of 24 fps as well).

I looked around the internet at several S8 projects and yours (Trunk Fiction) really caught my attention. Most s8 I had previously viewed seemed (In comparison to yours) as if the makers didn't really believe in the format as lighting was often inconsistant, shots ill concieved and many other minor things which to me kind of add up in the end and come off more like a 1960's spur of the moment hand held vacation reel rather than a series of scenes that show a story on film.

"Production" on this end is more of a trying to learn which end of the camera to swear at, but I've been pressing on with a "Will do" attitude and for better or worse should be shooting two shorts in a few weeks... If I can figure out which film stock of those available to me I should use.

:)
 
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If I can figure out which film stock of those available to me I should use.
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If you're shooting in a "closet" on S8, I'd think you'd want something that offered fine grain at a medium-high ISO. I wouldn't go for really high ISO, or push processing, since you can easily add light in confined spaces. However, going with a very low ISO would be silly if you're not shooting outdoors. Finally, you probably want something that is color balanced for tungsten lighting (3200K). A good color corrector should be able to give you the mood you want from any, well-exposed film stock.

BTW: Since you have a light meter, why don't you setup your lighting, roughly the way you'd like to shoot it, and see what ISO you're going to need to reach the camera's widest aperature (at the fixed shutter speed you'll be using). If the required ISO is unacceptable or unavailable, then you know you have to rethink your lighting. Once you have your lighting worked out, you'll know how low you can go with the ISO, and you'll know what color balance you'll need, because you've got your lighting configuration worked out. Remember that tungsten, flourescent, and halogen all have different color temperatures.
 
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Hey Oakstreet thanks again,

I think I confused things mentioning the S8. I will be shooting on 16mm (Color reversal) and not IN a closet, but in a space that is intended to look like the interior of a closet. (Not sure if I mentioned that before or not)

The idea of lighting my "Set" to get the look I would like to reproduce on film, then taking a light meter reading is great. I am waiting on a replacement part for my light meter, so when it arrives I'll be able to give that a full on go. In the meantime, please forgive my numbskulley, but I don't really understand what you mean by reaching my camera's widest aperature. I'm sure it isn't hard to understand, it's just I've never done it -yet.

Thanks
:)
 
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Buddy,
Your documentation refers to the aperature as the diaphragm. It's essentially the size of your lens opening. It's sometimes called an iris, because it performs the same function as the iris in your eye. If you have F-numbers on your lens, the widest, most open setting is the smallest F number (e.g. f1.8) and the largest number is the narrowest setting (e.g. f16 or f22).

The widest aperature/iris/diaphragm setting is generally the best for isolating your subject (selective focus). It is also the setting that will get you the most possible light, to allow for more creative lighting scenarios.

Shooting 16mm, you'll not have to worry about film grain quite as much, but it is still a consideration.

You had mentioned that you were shooting in a virtual closet. That doesn't really change the lighting setup; it's still a relatively confined area. I'm pretty sure what you will want is to light the general area pretty well and then add a brighter, key light that would represent the single light bulb light source. You can always boost the contrast after the fact, but it's hard to recover detail that is completely lost in shadow or severely overexposed. It's good to keep the range of dark to bright in a reasonable range (6 to 8 stops).

BTW: You really, really need to do some reading about lenses, aperatures, film speeds, shutter speeds, etc. A basic photography book should do, but a cinematography book might suit you better. If you don't know what I mean by 6 to 8 stops, you really need to find out, before you start exposing your precious film.
 
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Thanks as always Oak,

I agree, I will have to read more books. I've read one and tons of online stuff and manuals, so I understand much more than I did before, but still not enough in some areas. I had some specific Bolex questions that were confusing me, but I found some local help and soon will lose my 16mm virginity.

:)
 
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There is nothing like experience to test our knowledge and help us develop an understanding. Best of luck with your deflowering! I hope I didn't give the wrong impression, I'm still here to answer questions. It's just that I can't rewrite the book, so to speak.

Are you still waiting on the part for your light meter?
 
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No worries Oak,

I aprreciate all the help (Everyone has been very kind and rather patient) and I'm sorry if (When) I ask the same thing over and over. I agree, what is is and it's all out there in books and so forth and yet I am kind of in the position like reading myself silly about sailing and thinking "Hey it floats and the wind blows the sails, how hard could it be!?" only to find myself lost at sea like "Yeah, how hard could it be! Helpppp!", but comes a time when I will have to sink or swim no matter what. As lost as I am, I know I always learn things backwards, like once I do it, then many of the things I've read and have had explained to me 30 times suddenly make sense, so all I can do is take it step by step. I spoke with a guy that works on features and music videos and he said my first problem is I'm crazy and my 2nd problem is that the local stock mentioned is all over priced reversal which won't do me any good anyways, so on his recommendation, I went in a complete circle and arrived back at exactaly what Director Rick (I believe it was- or Wideshot) advised in the first place, but which i didn't understand at the time and that is use 500T 7279 or 5279 (Which was a lesson in itself.) , so now I have the film stock nailed down at least and know I have for better or worse two 650 watt lights. I STILL can't get an answer on how to compensate for the loss of light deflected into the Reflex viewer prisim, I mean, the manual says the speed is 1/60, but should be treated as 1/80 and yet I don't know how to transpose that on to reading my meter. My next step will be to do as you advised and set up my lighting and see what reading I get. I hope once I do that, then with the given aspects of the film stock and the simple lenses I have to work with, my questions should be much more focused and not trying to make sense of three things at once without even knowing what I am trying to ask in the 1st place, but alas, I'm still waiting on the part from B&H (Might come today).

As hard and expensive as it is, I wouldn't trade it for the world, well at least not until I get the film back from telecine that is.
:)
 
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Happily I have recieved my lightmeter part and understand it better now, so today my confusion is Bolex specific. I've read that there is a compensation for light loss through the viewer which I understand, but then I read on a Sekonic page that with RX lenses the shutter speed should be treated as 1/50th, again, no problem, but I have two Rx and one non RX which is 75mm. question is, do I treat all 3 lenses from the 1/50 reading or do I set the 3rd to 1/80 or 1/65?

:)
 
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You got me, on this one. This is the kind of thing where you get out a card that has white, black, and 18% gray, you shoot tests using carefully controlled and metered light, develop and find a densitometer (test all lenses with the same light and aperature, and at least you can check for consistency and/or determine which lenses are going to give more or less light with the same settings/conditions).

Once you've done the tests, then you can look at the things you are reading and determine if they are applicable. If the Non-RX lens gives you a denser negative (or thinner positive) at the same light and settings, then it indeed is behaving like it the shutter speed is faster (reducing exposure of film).

I always test my understanding of things with real world, controlled tests. The manual is a guideline and sometimes is subject to misinterpretation. Also, the guy who designed the camera didn't write the manual! I've found more than a few documentation errors in my life.

You'll need to do some lighting tests, anyway, so I'd just combine the lens comparisons with your lighting tests. Be sure to have some white, some black, and some middle gray in your tests for density comparisons. If you're shooting negative film, you'll want a tiny bit of density in the black, your whites shouldn't be too dense, and your middle gray should have a nice solid density (reverse black and white for positive film). It helps if you have a densitometer, but you can get by without one, if you study some well exposed negatives/positives so you know what a good density should look like. Maybe the processor would have a densitometer and they'd be willing to tell you where your middle gray lands in the film's density range.

If you keep your lighting down to a 6 or 7 stop range, you'll have some margin for error. If your lighting stretches across 8+ stops, you're going to have to be dead on with your exposure, or you'll lose something. With under 8 stops of dynamic range in your lighting, the 1/50 to 1/80 second difference would not be critical. From 1/50 to 1/100 is a full stop, and you can be off by a full stop if your lighting is flat enough.
 
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Thanks Oakstreet, that is interesting.

I keep hearing 500asa is too grainy in 16mm any thoughts on that?
I guess in a low light situation maybe that is a comprimise to have the sensitivity, but I don't.

:)
 
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500 ASA is going to be grainy. "Too grainy" is subjective. You shouldn't be shooting in a "low light" situation. You have total control of lighting (vs. a candlelight wedding). What you haven't yet told me is how wide your lens will open. Does your lens open to F1.8? ... or are you limited to F3.5 or higher?

If it were me, I could open my lens to F1.8 or wider, and I could bring in some reasonably high wattage lights, I'd try to stay around 200 ASA, for a good tradeoff of grain and sensitivity. However, your lens may vary, and you may find you need 500 ASA for anything other than bright sunlight.

So, what is your largest aperature (smallest f-stop number) available on all 3 lenses?
 
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1.4 on 10mm lens, 1.9 on 25mm and 2.8 on my 75mm.
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If you're going to use all three lenses, then you must plan for a light/ASA combination that will allow you to shoot at f2.8 at 1/80 of a second. Right off the top of my head, I'd say that a few hundred watts of light would get you to ASA 200. Referring back a couple of posts, now is the time to set up some lights on your set, or a mockup of your set, and check your light meter. You should be able to determine the required ASA/ISO to achieve your minimum settings of f2.8 and 1/80 second shutter. Once you determine the miminum ASA/ISO, you have only color balance (film matched to temperature of your light source) to consider when selecting your film stock. You should be very close to making a good selection. Then, you'll need to so some tests, to verify your calculations.
 
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I have experimented a few ways (with drugs mostly it seems) and kind of have my little closet "set" in place and with the lighting mood I desire.

Using a 100 watts in a table lamp as a key light and 60 watts in a clamp light above and slightly behind my actress position as fill, I am almost at a reading of 32 on my meter, which if I am hopefully doing it right is roughly 2.8 at 1/80 for 500 asa. I was thinking of concealing a small 40 watt backlight behind my actress which should bring me up to 32. I just don't know if I am doing it right.

I see on the kodak site (in the spec area) footcandles and apreture size recomended for each film stock, it's probably another dumb question, but is it all somewhat as easy as just matching like 2.8 with 20 on my meter as per that chart for 500asa? If so, what amount of under and over exposure latitude do I have?,
That is to say if I am at 32 and it recommends 20 will I be over exposed, or do they mean AT LEAST 20? Also please, can I use my 1.4 lens and my 2.8 lens wide open without changing the lighting and not be over or under exposed?

Thanks :)
 
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