Another Earth?

CF is on it.

If the gamma radiation doesn't bake the occupants over a few millennia (as if :rolleyes:) tiny rock pellets the size of sand to peas traveling tens of thousands of miles per hour zipping through the hull of someone's improbable-craft are gonna destroy anything inside like a shotgun to a carton of eggs. You wanna be an egg? I don't.

Thousands of years is a very long exposure time, and to what meaningful/purposeful end?
 
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We will never travel to any "Earth-like" planet. For that matter, we will never travel to any planet outside our Solar System.


You are probably right, but I must contend with the words, "never" and..."never."


Five points:

1) Voyager 1 is about to leave our solar system and Voyager 2 will also enter interstellar space in two years.

2) Your statement reminds me what my mom said about teachers who used to tell kids (in the 50's) that going to the moon was impossible in our lifetimes. 10 years later, it happened. Wait - we went to the moon...over 40 years ago.

3) Heck, alien abduction could make it happen to you, today! :D :lol: Some people think that the government has already tapped into alien tech found at the Roswell crash.

4) We are on a filmmaking forum and I have several plots that have already left the solar system. Researching real science theory is key for any good writer. If you can convince people that dinosaur DNA could be extracted from a mosquito trapped in prehistoric tree sap (amber), the audience will buy into a story like JURASSIC PARK.

5) Science fiction often breeds science fact. Aside from the many prophecies of STAR TREK, you can find it going way back to Jules Verne's "20,000 Leagues Beneath The Sea." or H.G. Wells' "First Men In The Moon." The U.S. Navy ("It's not science fiction. It's what we do, everyday.") actually has laser and railgun weapons. Ideas have to be thought up, before they can be implemented.

Real life science and social issues can influence the stories we write. Inspiration has been derived from technology of the time - electricity, subs, missiles, atomic bomb, radiation, evolution, DNA, cloning, gene splicing, space travel, lasers, bionics, teleportation, micro-processors, artificial intelligence, Nano-technology, etc.

Technology tends to speed up, incrementally, so who knows what lies ahead? Might as well ponder a story about it. :)

Milestone-Timeline.png
 
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In my opinion! Let the beatings commence. Be gentle. :)

Awww...(((((Group hug!)))))

More and more, I suspect your position is probably true, Cracker. For one thing, consider how darned expensive it is just to escape Earth's atmosphere.

Oy vey.

Are there enough resources on this planet to even, and "simply," colonize Mars, while also powering our homes, vehicles, etc?

But I was thinking about it today, and my thoughts were very congruous with Josh's and Scoopicman's.

I asked, how many people in the twelfth century even imagined that future generations would invent a flying machine (the airplane), let alone the 747-400 which today routinely carries hundreds of people (up to 660) around the globe?

But, I suppose, not many people in the eleven hundreds C.E. (or B.C.E., for that matter) even guessed that the Earth is a globe.

How 'bout that?

I enjoy pondering things like that. Maybe it makes me a square, but if that doesn't give someone a sense of "wow," then I don't know what should.

I've heard (read) conversations on this forum, I think, and elsewhere, at least, in which folks posted statements that said, in effect, that science and technological advances have gotten so far that there's not likely to be much or any significant change in either human understanding of the universe or in their technology. It does seem rather like that. It may be true. But that would be unprecedented. I love that graph(?), visual aid you posted, Scoopicman. It says a lot. It may be, and I hope so, that thinking that we've reached the pinnacle of scientific understanding is premature and myopic...and it may prove to be an ahistorical position to hold. What I mean is, the historical record, the precedent, does not seem to predict it. Well, I'm sure there's plenty of room for debate and consideration there.

It really does seem that scientists (on the television shows, anyway) have established that light speed travel is impractical. And even if it isn't, it would still be ridiculously slow given the vast distances involved. So, short of someone inventing wormhole technology or warp drive, our species won't be zooming around the universe. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't think in terms of centuries or millenia. (Or more!).

Indeed, for now, as far as colonizing space goes, it seems we should think in terms of very slow, gradual movements. So, short of the invention of practical wormhole travel, perhaps future generations will be able to colonize "the rest" of the solar system with "small moves." Perhaps that will mean only Mars, if it's the only one suitable for it. Then, perhaps only after generations of people learning how to, and refining how to, travel and live further out, but within, this solar system, will they have what it takes to venture out of this solar system, probably in multi-generational ships and then hopefully to other solar systems.

So, yeah, maybe we dreamers have to forget about the fun and convience of zipping around the universe as portrayed in Star Trek or Star Wars when it comes to imagining real world space travel. But when it comes to real world space travel, I'm guessing that multi-generational efforts may still be possible, as portrayed in a film like Pandorum.

Cosmic rays seem to be the most challenging "known unknown." That's why I continue to say that it comes down to innovators learning how to create, control, and maintain magnetic fields. Technology innovators should look in our own backyard for guidance. It's the Earth's magnetic field that protects us and our atmosphere from cosmic rays, right? I love the idea of terraforming. But it's long bugged me that no one ever addresses the problem of lacking a magnetic field to protect the atmosphere that you might create on another planet.

What about genetic engineering? The possibilities seem both frightening and wonderful. With it perhaps future generations will quash disease. And, hey, might it help artificially adapt humans to space travel and colonization? Maybe it could help ameliorate, prevent, or address DNA or tissue damage caused by exposure to cosmic rays. We have no less than the great intelligence of Stephen Hawking who has written that he believes that the species will be altering itself (in such ways?).

Also, what about Star Trek and Star Trek-like shields? It seems clear to me that what you want to achieve is something like the ability to create a strong magnetic field around your space vessel or habitat. Or, perhaps some sort of electro-magnetic-hybrid field. Hybrid with what I have no idea. But until it's shown that it's impossible or impractical for humans to master magnetic fields or some sort of magnetic-hybrid field technology, I'm disinclined to write space travel and space colonization off.

Sorry, that's rather long, but I felt like writing.

For anyone who had the patience and who took the time to read that, thank you.

=)
 
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I read it all, Richy!


What about genetic engineering? The possibilities seem both frightening and wonderful........We have no less than the great intelligence of Stephen Hawking who has written that he believes that the species will be altering itself (in such ways?).

I have to quote the page I got that graph from:

Another surprising innovation might come from the advancing technology of Nanorobotics. Nanorobots are tiny robots that are microscopic in size. With the acceleration of Nanorobotic Technology it is theorized that we could program and insert these cell-sized robots into our bodies to perform tasks on the microscopic level as soon as 2020. By simply replacing 10% of your red blood cells with robotic versions, you could take an Olympic sprint for 15 min or sit at the bottom of your pool for 4 hours by only taking one breath. We could even program these robots to identify and attack cancerous cells, resulting in somewhat of a “cure” for cancer. But, perhaps the most interesting use would be to not kill off cells but actually rebuild/repair them…seemingly extending someone’s life forever.


You might find this Bio-tech quite interesting, as this is current technology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW78wbN-WuU
 
@scoop, How do you keep all your stuff so organized? You seem to be able to pull anything relevant at a moment's notice? And it seems like you've got quite a lot of stuff from over the years.

Seriously, can you come organize my closet?
 
Ah yes, that's the one I was thinking of. Loved it

On the note of how we can't know what sort of things will be common place 50 years from now(that is, unless you're Robert Heinlein), I'll give you this 20-year-old example. Just for fun. :)

24thComps.jpg

(http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

:lol:

That's a fun read.


I read it all, Richy!

I have to quote the page I got that graph from:


You might find this Bio-tech quite interesting, as this is current technology:

That's a really fascinating article. What do you think? Does the machine world prediction have it right? But I have to wonder, in such a world in which our brains are all connected to some form of internet etc, what will happen to individuality etc? Will we be Borg? I think the prospect of nanotechnology is really exciting...the prospect of "curing" cancer alone sounds wonderful. But all of those predictions mentioned are.

That state of the art in prosthetics video is really interesting. But I wonder if lab grown organic limbs and genetic engineering won't appeal to more people who have the choice.
 
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@scoop, How do you keep all your stuff so organized? You seem to be able to pull anything relevant at a moment's notice? And it seems like you've got quite a lot of stuff from over the years.

Seriously, can you come organize my closet?

Yes, I do have a bit of stuff. My secret is that I just take a pic with my digital camera and upload the photo to Facebook, then link to it here. I've got this process down to 5 minutes. :lol:

I told my wife about your "organize my closet?" comment and she laughed! You see, I'm not very neat; I just have a lot of stuff. :D



But I have to wonder, in such a world in which our brains are all connected to some form of internet etc, what will happen to individuality etc? Will we be Borg?

Or like "Fahrenheit 451." There was an interesting part in the book where the fireman, Montag, is on the run from authorities and the host of the state run TV channel asks everyone to open their doors, to see if they can see him "on the count of three." Everyone in the city does so at once.

If it gets to that, I'll have to side with Snake Plisken about flipping the electricity off. :)
 
I'm well aware of the argument that people 100 years ago would've called our modern science pure fantasy. I have no doubt that science of tomorrow will be far different from that of today. But it's false-logic to throw that argument in reverse, to say that anything is possible in the future.

If I told you that, someday, human beings might be able to fly, using nothing other than their brains, would you think it possible? It's just as unlikely that we'll ever travel to another solar system. Heck, the science involved in humans travelling to another solar system is pretty much the same required to explain the existence of Santa Clause.
 
Heck, the science involved in humans travelling to another solar system is pretty much the same required to explain the existence of Santa Clause.

So, wait a minute... Does this mean that you don't believe in Santa Claus? :eek:


IMG_0004.JPG




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnEJrwYXXsI
 
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I love this thread!

Cracker Funk, I respect where you're coming from, but I don't think your analogy is really apt. There is absolutely no evidence that, for example, the mind could exert, on its own, a force that could make someone fly (barring any crazy transhumanist modifications). There is, however, evidence that travelling at high speeds through space can be done. You're doing it right now (though to be fair, Earth speeds aren't close to interstellar speeds. The Earth travels at around 100,000 kph, and rotates at around 1,600 kph, but my physics is way too rusty to be able to math that into how fast you are moving right now).

I think it all goes back to gravity. As you mentioned, G forces in space travel would be intense, unless you compensated with gravity localization. If you could generate waves of gravitational force to cancel out, so to speak, the incoming pressure, from the relative position of the space pilot there would be no increase. This would also take care of most of the physiological problems a human space traveller would have. You'd still have to do something about radiation, and of course, you'd need more power than we have for thrust (and to power all these fancy inertia compensators).

As you said, space is not empty. There's tons of crap there that we can't even perceive yet, let alone all the space junk. If we get to a "generating gravity" tech level, then it might be possible to use that to push small objects out of the way, while steering around the bigger stuff. Human pilots wouldn't be able to react fast enough to drive on manual, but that could easily be farmed out to the nav systems.

This possible solution hinges on a greater understanding of gravity than we currently have. There's tons of research being done in the field these days. My favorite tech story from last year:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/12/gravity_wave_detector_quantum_noise/
In summation, by observing the phase of particles, you push the uncertainty value into the amplitude, which lets you control the noise interfering with your observations of gravity waves. Heisenberg compensators, essentially! Doing this removes one of the obstacles for studying the gravity waves themselves. It's a very very early step, but we observed light long before we manipulated it into lasers, for example.

Sadly, we will have no mad-scientist style gravity guns anytime soon.

Other points, Scoopicman, love the graph! I'm saving that one :) ROC, that is the book I remember! Going to have to read it again! richy, while I think a Borg-state will be definitely possible (and probably will happen; I know some transhumanists who find that thought appealing), I don't think it will be an all-encompasing mandatory assimilation. I think enough people value their individuality too much, and a lot of those are people with the tech-savvy to prevent something like that. Would make (and probably has made) for some good cyberpunk stories...hacker on the run, trying to disrupt the global hive mind before being assimilated...though who is to say that his consciousness wouldn't be intact on the inside of the machine? Cool stuff!

Oh, and lest we forget the two most important space-going Santas:
futurama-robot-santa-claus.jpg

zim6.jpg


HAIL SANTA!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnEJrwYXXsI

:lol:

That's great! Just goes to show what you can conquer with good cheer and good will toward all.

Way to go, Santa!


richy, while I think a Borg-state will be definitely possible (and probably will happen; I know some transhumanists who find that thought appealing), I don't think it will be an all-encompasing mandatory assimilation. I think enough people value their individuality too much, and a lot of those are people with the tech-savvy to prevent something like that. Would make (and probably has made) for some good cyberpunk stories...hacker on the run, trying to disrupt the global hive mind before being assimilated...though who is to say that his consciousness wouldn't be intact on the inside of the machine? Cool stuff!

HAIL SANTA!

Those are fascinating questions. I've been thinking about that recently for some reason, not necessarily in regard to space travel or space colonization. Like you and Scoopicman seem to be saying, it seems to be our trajectory. That subject immediately makes me think of a phrase I heard some time ago: radical transparency. Something I find repellant, actually, because in practical application I don't think it's likely to ever be consistent with what, hopefully, most of us level headed folk think of as freedom and liberty and pluralism etc.

In any case, technology, advancing and increasing surveillance, and what other things(?) seem to be leading us toward a social organization that I'm guessing will bear increasing resemblance to ant, termite, or bee society.

I feel like mentioning a recent purchase that I made. I spent more money than I probably ought to on a book purchase these days, but I like the other Pinker book I've read, as well as what I've heard of his speaking. I tenuously (because I haven't actually read it yet) think it might have a bearing on this line of questioning. The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined. I may find out that I'm way off on this, but my impression is that its thesis might go something like this: we've been fairly well tamed.

So if technological and social trends continue and we are to increasingly become part of a hive(-mind) society, what does that mean for something like Moore's Law or for innovations like space travel or space colonization? Because, I've been wondering if developments like radical transparency and hive-like human social organization might be required to quell age old causes of human strife and disharmony and also to direct and focus human activity in ways that might be necessary to allow the colonization of the rest of the solar system and beyond. On the other hand, wouldn't these things also kill noncomformity, individuality, and therefore innovation, innovation which is probably required for continuing technological advancement?

Or, is that last question a product of a romantic and comforting self-or group-delusion we might employ to erroneously fool ourselves into believing that noncomformity, individuality, or atomism are virtuous and required for continued innovation? So, organicism versus atomism? Which, if either, will get us into space?

Or, is that in turn erroneous because machine intelligence will be driving future innovation?

How would you prefer to live? How do you hope your great, great grandchildren will live in this context?
 
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JoshL, I too love a good scientific discussion, and this is a good one. I think it's worth pointing out that all of the possibilities you mentioned in your last post, I already mentioned in my first post. I don't say this to be smart-alecy, or to say, "oh, see, I already thought of that". I point it out only to highlight that you and I are already on the same page, insofar as our opinions on if it were to happen, here's what we would need.

Where we differ is in the department of extremities. We both see the same hurdle that needs to be overcome; I just see that hurdle as being WAY higher than you do. When I think about traveling at the speed of light, which is really really fast, I see that the number of gravitational-compensations needed to overcome the extreme G-force as being simply insurmountable.

Your space-ship's computer would have to work WAY faster than the speed of light, in order to be able to anticipate the ever-changing adjustments it would have to make to the on-ship gravitational-pull. So, not only do you need to invent an extremely complex gravitational generator, you'd also have to invent some new form of energy that moves considerably faster than the speed of light. Otherwise, your computer would be much too slow.

On top of all of this, it would still take you 600 years to get there. And it might not even be habitable! It's too much. It's just too much for me to accept as even slightly plausible. Does make for great movies, though. :D
 
We are on the same page, and this is of course, discussion for the sake of discussion. Which I love :) The only thing that is missing is some good beer! And we definitely agree that the overall conclusion is "makes for great sci-fi stories, but we'll never see it".

I was actually using your examples to demonstrate my point; we can see the problems with space travel. I can think of possible solutions, and I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but I'm not super smart. I have no doubt that people smarter than me can think of things that I couldn't conceive of, let alone after a couple hundred years of tech growth. This is why I believe I'll never see another planet, but won't use words like "impossible".

A point I see us disagreeing on is that the computer needs to be doing these calculations in real time. I agree that perfectly you'd be able to "fly by hand" to adjust for each and every micro-gravitational shift. That shouldn't be necessary though. You get your supercomputer at point A to calculate and program the flight path (a crazy-intense calculation that could take months to work out), pull back the rubber band and let fly!

And again, 600 light years, barring FTL/wormhole/fnarg travel is way past unfeasable. 22 light years is slightly more so, but at best, we're still talking cryosleep/generation ships taking ages to get there. Why bother is the obvious question, but "because it'd be cool" is the equally obvious answer. If they asked me to go into stasis for a few hundred years while they shot me to another planet, knowing it'd be a one way trip with no guarantee of survival or being able to communicate the results, I'd seriously consider signing up. It's the same sort of drive that makes people want to climb mountains...it's not like anyone DOES anything at the top of K2. Now, building tech to terraform Mars for mining purposes, well, that might be a different story.

Again, the most exciting thing about this is a habitable planet 22 light years away IS close enough to study, and if there's anything living there, IS close enough to communicate with. Damn exciting stuff!

Anyway, I think we've both made and understood each other's perspective on this, so this would be the moment I'd buy the next round for a toast! Hope you like stouts!

richy, I think you have hit upon the old communism vs. capitalism argument! Is it better to have everyone working for the good of the collective, or for smaller groups to compete against each other? Which will advance further? We're talking, of course, of the idealized forms of both systems, rather than the facist and coporate systems we usually end up with (both encourage more stagnation than development).

I think on a microcosm, a collective is more efficient, with everyone focused on the same goals. But I think macrocosmically, competition drives those goals further. So if we all get Borg-ed (my new favorite adjective), I think we would need several closed system collectives rather than a single global hive mind. It would have to be a designed system, rather than something allowed to happen on it's own.

Seeing a sci-fi society now: children are raised and educated in a "youth hive", which not only educates them, but sees where the individual's strengths and weaknesses are. Graduation day is assignment to a hive of the next tier. 6 students to the space tech, 6 to resource production (food, etc), 6 to environment tech, 6 to maintenance (medical, etc) and so on. Those 6 space tech students are assigned to one of three teams, each competing with each other on projects given to them from the theoretical/research hives. Retirement can be either a leisure hive of your choice, or to be disconnected from all collectives to live as an individual until you die.

This is, of course, unless Skynet becomes self-aware, and decides we need to be harvested/stomped out equally.
 
But we're working on it: also in this morning's news on the Reg:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/03/spacex_tests_superdraco/
SpaceX, the world's biggest private rocket company, has developed a new safety/low-gravity landing engine. The tests say it works the way they wanted it to. If they could get there, this could land one of their Dragon capsules (love the name, by the by) on Mars.

This stuff greatly excites me :)

This is very nice. What a guy. =)

On yesturday's 60 MINUTES: SpaceX: Entrepreneur's race to space
 
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