A producer's nightmare-- problem actors

[narcissus]

I have been working on a low budget feature for +3 years... in fact, the first day of shooting was 3 years ago this week (June 17, 2002). On this first day of shooting, the DAT machine broke-- and there was no usable dialogue.

So I continued to shoot the film and hoped that I could edit around and dub... fix it in post. I had no other choice since I had a very strict deadline to complete shooting (limited access to locations and the place I was staying which was the primary location).

I began post a few weeks after wrapping. Several months later it became appearant that other scenes were needed.

So I contacted the actors and crew and got together another shoot the following summer. We shot for several days straight during the summer then one day per weekend because of their schedules. I also began to film another project with the actors simultaneously because of the limited access to locations. The actors' moods had noticably changed from the first shoot, however-- they began to complain about the pay ($480 per day on a low budget indie...) and the heat and the cars and the air,,,, but otherwise the shooting was going along well.

Then in mid September 2003, the actors showed up +90minutes late to one shoot, and have not shown up to any shoot since. I have scheduled 3 shoots since, and given them over 20 days notice (the contract specifies that I give them at least 2 days)-- still they were no-shows.

I sent many many emails and waited and waited... nothing. Then after sending several legal threats, was told to speak to one's agent. So I called and emailed him. He asked if I would pay airfare for the shoot. I agreed,, (though I am not contractually obligated to do so). Several days later I was told that the actor was not available for my project.

So I had an attorney review their contracts. He said they are valid and it is clear that they must appear if I give them 2 or more days' notice... So he wrote them each a letter asking them to contact me to resume filmming. Nothing from one,, only a non-working phone number from the other.

I was advised to not include any names because this information may harm the actors, and I will yield to that despite the fact that their actions are interfering with my ability to finish my film. This has been the case for over 20 months now of them not showing up for 1 day of neccessary reshoots. I do not believe it is libelous for me to post provable facts about someone interfering with my business. If I were making false claims to harm them I could be opening myself up for a suit against myself-- I have no desire to do that. Right now, I'm trying to gain some other perspectives and to hopefully help other people to avoid going through the same unneccessary trama.

Does anyone have any comments or suggestions ???


Thanks,


JB

(edit; punctuation)

 

[Zensteve]

Sounds like your attorney will be earning his/her keep.

It is not libel or slander for me to publically post provable facts...

It's not particularly smart though, especially when you are still trying to work something out.

Good luck.

 

[spinner]

I posted this message earlier, but was asked by Admin to remove the actor's names because this may harm their careers even though their actions are harming my ability to finish my film-- this has been the case for over 20 months now of them not showing up for 1 day of neccessary reshoots. It is not libel or slander for me to publically post provable facts about someone interfering with my business. If I were making false claims to harm them I could be opening myself up for a suit against myself-- I have no desire to do that. Right now, I'm just trying to get some other perspectives and to hopefully help other people to avoid going through the same unneccessary trama.

...I feel bad for you, its too bad some people can't manage to be professional. However, maybe it would be better for you to not name names. I don't know what kind of power your actors have. Maybe not harming their careers would also not harm yours. And if this is how they act, maybe you need to escape without any major scars more than they do. You want to be able to still work. Maybe what you need to do is cut your losses and protect yourself. Geez, I don't know what you should do....

--spinner

 

[directorik]

Wow - you are really hitting all the boards on the net with this. I count eight now.

I suspect a lawyer would be a better bet than people on a messageboard - or on LOTS of messageboards.

 

[narcissus]

Maybe not harming their careers would also not harm yours.

I'm not out to harm their careers-- just to make their actions known. They ARE harming my career and my investment right now and have been for over 20 months. Why should I be the sacrificial lamb for their actions ?

The contract is clear, and my conscience would be even clearer if I can enable other people to not have similar unneccessary trama. I think it's fine to post their names-- they are adults and made their decisions. It is not my problem if their choices hurt their careers.

Wow - you are really hitting all the boards on the net with this. I count eight now.
I suspect a lawyer would be a better bet than people on a messageboard - or on LOTS of messageboards.

Someone else must be copying my messages. I haven't posted that many.

My lawyer has already reviewed the contracts and sent them letters... I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas of anything to do besides a lawsuit even though that seems pretty inevitable now...

 

[WideShot]

Just to make it known, it was the moderators who all agreed to not post the names of the people involved on this website. From my standpoint, the legal system works by those who are proven guilty by a court of law, not by someone advised by his lawyers on a message board, and therefore since *we* don't know whether or not it is legally liable or true or not, it is best we don't have things that could be construed as libellous or demeaning on indietalk. That said, I totally understand the frustration, if I was in your shoes I have no idea what I would do other than to unleash my wrath upon those two actors with as much financial damages as possible.

 

[clive]

I see as couple of points here.

1) If the actors have contractual obligations then the place to settle them is in court. If the case is so clear cut then it should get resolved that way. In the situation that you've described I'd be looking to sue for the cost of remaking the film in total with a new cast. However, at this point in the proceedings I'd be keeping my evidence and position very quiet, because by publishing it you are practically giving their defense team your game plan, whilst they are disclosing nothing.

2) Actors don't walk off projects or demand more money unless they aren't enjoying the work or feel that they are being taken advantage of. You've already admitted here that a) You had a massive technical problem on first day of principle photography that you didn't address, creating addititional work in post, that b) You've asked actors back to shoot extra scenes after you've wrapped, c) that when you ran into location problems you asked them to work on another project, d) that they had made complaints about the working conditions and you didn't address those issues. (This is the reason you don't post this stuff in public, there is enough in that posting alone to completely undo your contract in court)

3) The reason that moderators took your posting to one side and talked about it before letting you post was to protect YOU. With the legal complications that you have at the moment the last thing you need is a counter suit for defamtion of character. You may believe that your case is rock solid and that there is no doubt that you are right, but until that's been settled in court there is a very real possibility that you may lose your court case and at that point any published statements that you've made about the situation are open to litigation.

4) Consider this. If your case was so rock solid their agent wouldn't be stonewalling you. I've never met an agent yet who didn't have a complete grasp of his or her client's legal obligations. If they absolutely had to be there or lose thier shirts their agent would have driven them to the airpost to make sure it happened. The fact that this isn't happening should at least make you sit back and think about the situation for a few minutes.

5) Producing and directing a film is more than just setting up shots and editing, anytime it ends up in court you've already screwed up by not understanding the people that you're working with and what they need to stay "on side." It's easy to blame them, but you cast them, it's your project and buck has to end with you.

 

[narcissus]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your comments.

Let me just say though-- I know without question that I am responsible for the validity of the information posted about these people. I have 100% confidence in my ability to prove what I have posted about them, and in my intentions for posting it-- therefore I have absolutely no worries about a suit. If they come at me they will be forcing me to prove their breaches and interferences-- why would I be liable for their provable actions ? If I were maliciously bending the truth to make anyone look unprofessional, then I could be asking for trouble.

I am simply cataloging provable actions with the intention of preventing similar problems for others--- I do not see any legal problem with that. I believe I can prove every note I've offered thus far (and others) beyond a reasonable question in any legitimate court/venue. Also,, I am definately not posting my whole case, nor any of the more delicate details by any means-- just a few of the major major points.

EDIT: I have detailed answers for the other points but decline to post them now.

 

[narcissus]

You want to be able to still work. Maybe what you need to do is cut your losses and protect yourself.

I appreciate what you are saying, but I don't understand why taking these people to task for their actions would prevent me from working... is that not the professional thing to do ? Am I supposed to jump on their sword instead ?

Also, I don't know how to cut my losses right now-- I am 1 day of neccessary reshoots away from completion... all these people have to do is show up for 1 day of paid work which they are contractually obligated to do. I don't know what else I can do in this situation besides making it known to others to prevent similar problems. I have no intention of harming anyone's career-- on the contrary I have been trying (for over 20 months) to get them to show up and perform as per their contract so I can complete the film and pay them.

EDIT: I don't see any fault in my desire to finish my project.

 

[clive]

OK. Maybe I'm not making myself clear enough.

Can I suggest that before you post anything else about this issue you tell your lawyer what you're doing and ask them whether it's a good idea or not.

I know you think you are right, you may well be, but what is right and what is legal are two separate issues.

I don't disbelieve a single word you've written, why should I, but that's not the issue.

Seriously, take a deep breathe, forget what they've done wrong for the moment and consult your lawyer before continuing your campaign.

As a producer myself, I'm telling you that I'd be firing anyone who did what you're doing at the moment. You've got to think beyond this film and think about your long term career.

 

[narcissus]

Okay-- I appreciate your advise and will consult my legal team further.


but note; I strongly believe there will be no career for me if this film is not completed. I have no malice, but am 100% in a bind either way because of these people and I don't think that is cool or fair or legal.

I'm telling you that I'd be firing anyone who did what you're doing at the moment.

EDIT: Even without naming names ? If I were naming names, this could be just another Variety or Hollywood Reporter story. All I am doing is recanting my experiences in the hopes that others do not have to endure the same headaches. If the actors stand behind their decisions, how am I harming anyone by making note of my experiences ? If they do not stand behind their decisions, then they may need to make some changes in their position. If their current position harms their career, how is that my responsibility ? I'm trying to enable them to appear and finish the project.

 

[Zensteve]

Here's what I have gathered from the posts so far...

• You had multiple actors quit on you.
• You recognised (but did not address) their complaints.
• You are taking private legal issues to the open internet.
• You decline to wait for your legal reps to do their thing first.
• You have to sue actors to work for you.

...and you're concerned about possibly not having a career?

Don't worry; at least you're working hard on making a reputation for yourself.

It doesn't matter whether you are "justified" about bitching about the actors or not. You really think any of the big players would want to deal with a producer who can't deal with issues in a professional, private fashion?

 

[narcissus]

• You had multiple actors quit on you.
• You recognised (but did not address) their complaints.
• You are taking private legal issues to the open internet.
• You decline to wait for your legal reps to do their thing first.
• You have to sue actors to work for you.

...and you're concerned about possibly not having a career?

1. I am unaware of either of them quitting
2. I've addressed every complaint I've known about to the best of my ability
3. For fair comment discussion to see what others think and to hopefully prevent this problem for others
4. Not declining-- this is a parallel process
5. EDIT: Hopefully not. That's not my goal here.

You really think any of the big players would want to deal with a producer who can't deal with issues in a professional, private fashion?

Magazines and forums are filled with similar issues-- I'm hardly re-writing history here... I've been dealing with this privately for +20 months and now believe it may be beneficial for others to comment on and to know about so they can hopefully avoid similar situations.

 

[Zensteve]

...and stop editing your previous posts.

You've gone from (paraphrased) "wtf! Admins removed the names I posted. No fair!" to implying that you were advised by your legal team to "not include any names because this information may harm the actors' careers".

Imo... something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

 

[NicklausLouis]

To be fair...narcissus was advised, by me, to remove the names. The mods did not remove the names.

I have not been keeping up with this thread as I should have, and for that I apologize.

The thing here is this, Narcissus, you are getting advice from many people to keep your argument toned down in order to save yourself future heartache. It's good advice that should be heeded.

And everyone else, if Narcissus wants to dig a grave, let him. Indie Talk does not condone defamation of character and we have asked Narcissus to remove any names in order to protect ourselves.

Poke

 

[narcissus]

you are getting advice from many people to keep your argument toned down in order to save yourself future heartache. It's good advice that should be heeded.

which is why I edited the post. I didn't mean to imply any "WTF?", and never said anyone removed any names.

And everyone else, if Narcissus wants to dig a grave, let him.

No one's name is posted... If it was they could threaten me to take it off.... but this is not the case here.

If I videotaped Leonardo DiCaprio beating up a homeless person and I posted about it, would I be digging a grave ? I don't understand what is so horrible about me posting my experiences in this case... Maybe I'm totally out of it, but I have no idea how I'm digging a grave in this case, and I am obeying with the Moderators' desire to keep the names out of this forum.

I appreciate the feedback and will stop adding case-specific information. What is grave-digging about that ?

 

[narcissus]

...and stop editing your previous posts.

You aren't allowed to do that ?

You've gone from (paraphrased) "wtf! Admins removed the names I posted. No fair!" to implying that you were advised by your legal team to "not include any names because this information may harm the actors' careers".

I was advised by Moderator Poke about their policy,,, is that okay ?

Imo... something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

For rephrasing one sentance ? I did not want to imply any "WTF?" stuff about the Admin, and just simply said I was advised. That's all I changed. What is wrong with that ?

 

[NicklausLouis]

I appreciate the feedback and will stop adding case-specific information. What is grave-digging about that ?

Not grave digging if you keep things vague. I was just telling folks that it's your choice.

Poke

 

[narcissus]

Not grave digging if you keep things vague. I was just telling folks that it's your choice.

Poke

Okay I appreciate that.


Here is some online info about defamation since I am appearantly being accused of it here;

http://jobsearchtech.about.com/cs/labor_laws_2/a/defamation_3.htm

excerpts from http://www.ivanhoffman.com/defamation.html

"claims of defamation are limited to living persons only and the living person must be identifiable in the writing or publication"
there are no names included in this thread

"A statement that is true is a complete defense to such claims in most states even though there are some states that require that the otherwise truthful statement also be published without the motive to actually harm the party written about."
that is doubly true here since there is no malice in my motive

"There are special provisions for defamation in a newspaper or by broadcast in which the California law limits a party to getting only special damages (i.e. provable actual damages) unless the party has properly requested a retraction which has not been provided. "
not the case at all here

"Actual malice generally refers to statements made with knowledge of their falsity or in reckless disregard for whether they were false or not."
again, I stand behind my motives and facts 100%

 

[Spatula]

Listen, Narc.

I know you want to stand up for yourself, and make your case... but what are you trying to prove, and to who?
Sure. You got screwed. Maybe you brought it on yourself, maybe you didn't. I don't know, and I have no time to care.
But what you KEEP doing, is pushing this in our faces. THAT, in itself, is not very professional, and is going to hurt your reputation! The best way to deal with something like this is to sweep it under the rug and keep it quiet. It's not good for you, it's not good for the actors. If you REALLY want to make things better, talk to your actors REASONABLY, and offer them something in consolidation for thier trouble. Make things seem like if they come out and finish the film, they'll actually BE REWARDED. Because if I were acting for you, and went through all those problems, only to find I have to come back AGAIN to shoot MORE.... well, I'd do it, because I made an obligation, but I wouldn't be happy... unless you offered me something as an apology. Sometimes, you have to think of other people... sure... the actors you mention don't sound very professional... but if you NEED them, and you want to make things HAPPEN, then you have to forget your own hubris and bite the bullet.
It seems you're still stuck on "Who's right?" and "Who's wrong?". That doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is keeping your dignity, and acting like a professional.
Try and POLITELY get them back, ad if that doesn't work, DISCREETLY take legal actions.

If Lucas bitched and bitched on the internet about how Anthony Daniels kept gumming up the suit with sweat and saliva and complained alot, people would be like: "Geez, I would never want to work with Lucas, he's a nazi!!!"
But he doesn't. I'm sure he's had some issues like you have, and he makes it seem like they ARN'T problems. That's a big thing a director/producer must do- make things SEEM like they are flowing smoothly, even if they are not.

So to recap:
-Bite the bullet.
-Get the actors back
-Stop bitching
-Pick yourself up and try again... but be considerate. Always be considerate.



-Logan-