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Old 11-21-2017, 02:10 PM   #1
Velusion
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The strength of music

This is sort of an offshoot of a thread I was just reading.

Music is very illusive to me. Some movies have a nearly continuous score going on yet others have very little or none.

The Exorcist used a little incidental music but nothing much really. Everyone thinks of the Exorcist when they hear Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells yet that music only played for a matter of seconds and only in one scene (two if you count that someone was listening to side 2 in one of the Jesuit dormitory rooms)... In the one scene that the familiar tubular bells came to life, Chris McNeil was simply walking down the street on her way home after work but the music worked so perfectly that I can't imagine the scene without it.

I only bring up the Exorcist because, as a movie, it represents a near perfect in my opinion.

What I really want to discuss is the roll of music in a movie and what it means. Is it just a tradition born in the days of silent movies being shown with a live orchestra in the pit or has it evolved into something more quantifiable? Music is art and art is without bounds yet there must be some guidelines on when and how to use music in a movie. People must have opinions......... No, not really opinions. More like philosophies. A philosophy on what music is to movies and how it should be use.

What are your thoughts?
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:37 PM   #2
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It's an interesting question. It reminds me of the laugh track. At one time, this we the norm for all sitcoms, and it has grown to be an annoyance and something that is not a part of modern comedies. When it's there (usually in network TV sitcoms except Modern Family), it seems out of place, tacked on, and cheesy. It started with live audiences and grew to be canned, cheesy, and out of place.

I bring this up because music is similar. The actors are not hearing the song (in most cases) or score. And it did grow from the live pit as you say. If not played right it could serve a similar fate. It requires THOUGHT! And not be tacked on. I can say I have become more aware of it in some cases, which is not a good thing, meaning, it feels separate. I think music will outlive the laugh track, but if taken for granted as something to add by default it will feel just as out of place. Some elaborate scores almost serve as parody.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:21 PM   #3
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I think these examples will better answer your question. What would they be like without their music?

JAWS
STAR WARS
PLANET OF THE APES (original)
PSYCHO (original)
A FIST FULL OF DOLLARS
BLADE RUNNER
HALLOWEEN (original)
STAR TREK TMP (especially the Klingon vs V'GER opening)


Of course, my answer is that it depends on the movie and the mood conveyed. As for those movies, they were elevated to a greatness that could not have been, save for their scores.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:33 PM   #4
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Scoopicman, agreed! But you have to also adapt to the times. Again my laugh track example (which was at one time just as prevalent as the score to a film). Works flawlessly in the Honeymooners, but sticks out like a sore thumb in Big Bang Theory. Why? It's not as easy as saying it worked for those films so it works today. It requires thought and adaptation to today's audiences imo.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indietalk View Post
But you have to also adapt to the times
I've noticed that in many 21st century films there are many drones, pads, understated and overstated sounds that are less musical and melodic, but work very well for mood. Next time you listen to something like 30 DAYS OF NIGHT, you'll notice that.

On the other side of the coin, I've talked to people that really miss movies that don't have strong theme music. I'm noticing that there is a musical resurgence in cinema. People are loving the 80's style score to STRANGER THINGS. All the superhero movies have big, bombastic scores. There's also a niche for electronic compoers, like Cliff Martinez (DRIVE, ONLY GOD FORGIVES, THE FOREIGNER, NEON DEMON). BLADE RUNNER: 2049 definitely aped the original score style, but also used more modern VST over-driven synth sounds.

It's a circle. New homages the old.
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:30 PM   #6
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True!
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:49 PM   #7
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Definitely some cheesy cliches like the saxaphone/lonely street walk, etc. lol.
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:52 PM   #8
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On the low budget end, I went with a fairly traditional, instrumental score for my first feature (Surviving Family), with just one small original song right near the end. For my second (Detours), which is a road trip movie, I decided before we shot it that I wanted to license songs from indie singer songwriters that would help to set the tone along the way. We did have some instrumental score, but a lot of it ended up on the (proverbial) cutting room floor during the final edit because it just didn't fit what we were trying to do.
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:07 AM   #9
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You guys have given me something to think about. It seems that my original question was what is music to a movie? but perhaps a better question would be what is a movie?

indietalk said
Quote:
The actors are not hearing the song (in most cases) or score.
I had never really considered that.. The music is there for the audience. It is a part of the theatrics... and Mike is right; the movies on his list would not be the same without their musical scoring.

If a movie hopes to achieve suspension of disbelief then how can that happen if there is music playing? Life does not come with a melodic soundtrack. BUT somehow it works. Movies like Jaws and Gone with the Wind do draw us in. It would seem that the music would be a distraction, but it isn't.. ... Strange.

Proper use of music seems like a large subject. Can anyone think of any examples of movies that used music poorly? I can only think of one; in the Scorsese film Gangs of New York, near the beginning of the film there is a fight between the natives and the immigrants. during the fight, music kicked in that was way too modern for the scene (in my opinion). It sounded like something you'd hear in a cop show or Breaking Bad. I saw the movie at the theater and was instantly distracted. I was sitting there thinking "what's with this music?"...
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:53 AM   #10
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Suspension of disbelief happens because music talks to our primal moods. It is one of the most defining things in our lives. If I put together your family video, compiled from the last 30 years footage, I woud use your album collection select songs that represented a particular decade or time and that would most likely trigger memories of feelings that you had at the time. It’s the same with movies that are about the 50s or the 70s; they use songs that remind people of that time.
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by IndieTalk
The actors are not hearing the song (in most cases) or score.
Diagetic music takes place within the world of the movie, such as a radio that's visible, a marching band, etc. Non-diagetic music is not part of "their" world - a score, etc.

IndieTalk - I know you know this, but maybe not everyone else does
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velusion View Post

I only bring up the Exorcist because, as a movie, it represents a near perfect in my opinion.


What are your thoughts?
That's interesting. Can you explain this view? In my opinion its lacking ... I see a weak protagonist's, boring dialog and very slow passing. The 2 minute tubular bells is one of the best parts of the movie.... and that part was just filler.

A lot of my friends think the Excercist was a revolutionary new way of movie making and horror.
Its just my opinion, I also think that the The Trial is a better movie than Citizen Kane. I wish to hear and understand your take on it.
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlesemann View Post
Diagetic music takes place within the world of the movie, such as a radio that's visible, a marching band, etc. Non-diagetic music is not part of "their" world - a score, etc.

IndieTalk - I know you know this, but maybe not everyone else does
Right! I was just wondering if there will ever come a time where music feels out of place in a film. That's the only reason I brought up laugh track. Our minds are so trained to know that there's not an orchestra in the forest, or a person "in the room" laughing. Time will tell how music plays out but for now, it is very important, and can even "make" the film. As a musician I am definitely not against music in film! These are just things I think about.
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:01 AM   #14
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Quote:
Diagetic music takes place within the world of the movie, such as a radio that's visible, a marching band, etc. Non-diagetic music is not part of "their" world - a score, etc.

IndieTalk - I know you know this, but maybe not everyone else does
hehehe .... I'm pretty sure that everyone except maybe schizophrenics know that "non-diagetic music" is not in their world...

Feutus Lapdance, I will explain my view a little later in the day.

Last edited by Velusion; 11-22-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feutus Lapdance View Post
That's interesting. Can you explain this view? In my opinion its lacking ... I see a weak protagonist's, boring dialog and very slow passing. The 2 minute tubular bells is one of the best parts of the movie.... and that part was just filler.

A lot of my friends think the Excercist was a revolutionary new way of movie making and horror.
Its just my opinion, I also think that the The Trial is a better movie than Citizen Kane. I wish to hear and understand your take on it.
I think there are two protagonists in “The Exorcist”.

Chris McNeil is quite strong. She does everything in her power to
discover what is wrong with her daughter, including going to a
priest which appears to be against her personal belief.

Father Karras is strong because he faces his issues of faith head on.

“Boring dialogue” and “slow” are subjective. I cannot argue that you
should find the dialogue interesting. I feel every scene pushes the plot
forward and shows us something about the characters. The dynamic
between mother and daughter is quite realistic. I agree the pacing is
slow. Horror films in the early 1970's were different than today.
Audiences were accustom to the Hammer films and slow build films
like “Psycho”, “The Birds”, “Rosemary's Baby” even “Night of the Living
Dead”. To me that pacing makes the first “action” scene that much
more shocking.

In many ways it was a revolutionary way of making a horror movie.
Nothing like it had been made up to that point by a major studio.
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