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Old 09-25-2015, 04:19 AM   #16
MaxAblitzer
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Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
I've had 4 composers so far tell me they were going to make me a track for a 3 minute short I did, so far none of them came through. One strung me along for months.
I'm surprised to read this, did you pay the composers or did they work for free?

It is said that if you pay zero for music the perceived value of music is zero. But if a project pays you zero, the perceived value of this project for the composer may be zero as well.

You should put in a reasonable budget and I am sure you will find reliable composers to work with.
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Old 09-25-2015, 05:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Scoopicman View Post
First time I've heard that term, so I looked it up.
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Originally Posted by directorik View Post
A term I didn't know either.
Diagetic is not a term I've ever heard used in the business, I only came across it in academia. Using the term to professionals screams "student" to me but maybe that will change as time passes. As I understand it, it's not a very precise term, or rather, it's not used very precisely. Basically any music which occurs on screen, as part of the soundscape of the scene, can be described as diagetic: Elevator music, music from a TV, radio or PA system (say in a shopping mall), as well as actual live music, say in the case of a band or musician playing on screen. As a general rule, diagetic music will be "futz'ed" in some way, to simulate the acoustic of the scene/location and the device playing back the music.

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Originally Posted by Score&Sound View Post
As a musician i truly have to say: to use silence (in the right moment) is the hardest part of composing for games and movies.
It's not up to the musician/composer when to use silence. That's a decision for the sound designer and director, and silence is virtually never used in film anyway. Maybe that's why you've had such a hard time trying to use it?

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Originally Posted by moonshieldmedia View Post
A modern trend in indie film these days is to not have any non-diegetic music. Films have become quieter and tend to lean toward "realism." Bombastic John Williams scores are not necessarily in style anymore.
I don't follow indie film scene assiduously enough to say exactly what the most current indie trend is, but films in general have become louder rather than quieter. John Williams' style scores are still in demand, although obviously it depends on the genre of the film, but Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore and the like are as sought after as ever.

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Old 09-25-2015, 05:27 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by initiativeaudio View Post
Where do you look for your composers and at what stage of the process do you tend to start looking.
Stick around this thread for a while; already several composers on it. Maybe one will offer you some links to their work.

Like Josh was saying above, the composer could be involved after production or at a very early stage. For instance, I know a friend who is planning a slasher movie, so I offered to make him an 80's style piece (HALLOWEEN/PHANTASM style bell melody on the top keys and low synth on the bottom), so he can get a feel of the mood, before production starts. A theme or example can set the tone for the director/producer. A lot of people write, while listening to scores, which often implores them to seek a similar type of sound.


Quote:
Also, is original music something that you find worth investing in or are you more likely to find affordable library music?
I'm huge on having an original score; a voice of the movie that no one else can use. You should probably already know the answer to this question (either you care a lot about the score or you look at music more as background filler).


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Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
I've had 4 composers so far tell me they were going to make me a track for a 3 minute short I did, so far none of them came through. One strung me along for months........Hell maybe i will just teach myself the piano and get a keyboard. At least I would have someone reliable then.
Exactly how I got into the music end, many years ago! I had directed shorts for 4 years (using my favorite copyrighted scores from Hollywood movies) and wanted to switch to original stuff. I always had an ear for cinematic music, but my sister got the piano lessons. Anyway, I got mad about flaky composers and plunked 2k down on a synth and never looked back. Pretty soon, I had a room full of them. It was one of the best things I ever did. These days, with cheap apps, I would think it was a no-brainer to at least have available.


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Originally Posted by Score&Sound View Post
today i collect every metallsound i can find or record it by my own. I love it.
Same here! Metal hits are cool for TERMINATOR type music and scrapes are just creepy. One of my faves is from my backyard gate, which is has a great sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshieldmedia View Post
In my original statement I said it was more of a trend in indie film, since almost every studio film has a score or heavy non-diegetic soundtrack.

Some great examples of the indie films I'm talking about are:

Cache
The Sacrifice
L'enfant
Amour
Dogtooth
Menthol
Computer Chess
Funny Games
Even The Birds had no music
Thanks! I did know you were mostly talking indies. Your "realism" statement got me thinking. This is a case where a sound designer comes into play, much more than a composer, to enhance a scene's mood. Just as a filmmaker can use a camera to show the story from a certain perspective or point of view, the same could be said about the microphone. For instance, you could have a man and woman argueing, but maybe you want to show them from outside of the house as a dog watches. Instead of hearing the actual words, the mic may be picking up wind passing through leaves and a wind chime in the distance.

For anyone wondering about diegetic, I though this was a nice sum up:

Quote:
Diegetic sound is any sound that the character or characters on screen can hear. So for example the sound of one character talking to another would be diegetic. Non-diegetic sound is any sound that the audience can hear but the characters on screen cannot. Any appearance of background music is a prime example of non-diegetic sound.
EDIT: AudioPostExpert posted while I was writing. I'm not trying to be redundant.
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Last edited by Scoopicman; 09-25-2015 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 09-25-2015, 01:05 PM   #19
directorik
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Originally Posted by AudioPostExpert View Post
Diagetic is not a term I've ever heard used in the business, I only came across it in academia.
I mentioned the term to to a composer friend yesterday as we were
leaving a screening at the Hollywood film Festival. He just laughed and
said the same thing; he hadn't heard the term since leaving college.




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Originally Posted by AudioPostExpert View Post
I don't follow indie film scene assiduously enough to say exactly what the most current indie trend is,
I do. I spent that last two day seeing indie films at a festival (3 each day)
and will see 2 today and Saturday. That's why moonshield's statement
jumped out at me. I haven't seen this trend in indie films these days.
Sure, some films use no score at all, but the majority of indie films I see
do.

moonshield, I'm pleased to say I've seen all the movies you mentioned. I
recall "Menthol" using some underscore. But I saw it at the SBFF over a
year ago. "Computer Chess" and the Haneke films are good examples.
I guess I'm just not seeing the trend you are.
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Old 09-25-2015, 01:43 PM   #20
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Just throw a stick in any direction. You'll hit one.
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoopicman View Post
Stick around this thread for a while; already several composers on it. Maybe one will offer you some links to their work.

:
Actually, may not have been clear on this, but I am actually a composer myself. The company that I co-founded has worked on some major projects, but they all seemed to have come from luck. We have a lot of contacts with bigger name composers, so we've been given work that they had to turn down. Now that we're looking to expand a bit, I was curious about ways to start relationships with more directors.

Though it's really great to hear a non-composer's thoughts on the music. The diegetic music discussion was fun to read. Actually, in my school we called it source music. Took me a second to make the connection.
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Old 09-25-2015, 08:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initiativeaudio View Post
hough it's really great to hear a non-composer's thoughts on the music. The diegetic music discussion was fun to read. Actually, in my school we called it source music. Took me a second to make the connection.
I don't know about moonshieldmedia, but I have been composing film and ad music, since 1984. I stick to mostly paid work, but I do the occasional indie, if it interests me (such as the slasher movie I mentioned). Just as with filmmaking, I am a fan, first - I collect movies and scores, so I like talking about this from that perspective. Yes, very interesting discussion! I work a lot with synths, sampling and waveform modulation. I often use a vocoder.

Anyway, the diegetic/film realism discussion got me thinking of different approaches, such as sampling onscreen elements (or creating them, via foley) and making ambient or rhythmic patterns. I recently saw an indie horror movie that used the sounds of marbles (or BBs) rolling across wood. The mic placement was close enough to catch the resonance of that wood surface, which was very effective. Something like that could part of the onscreen action, background or off-frame.

A great example would be the opening of EVIL DEAD, where the car approaches the cabin. While driving down the road, you hear a "bump..... bump...... bump." You think that the sound editor or composer is using this sound as some wierd beat. Eventually, they pull up and you see the swinging porch bench, hitting the wall. As soon as they step onto the porch, it stops. Brilliant and simple!
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by directorik View Post
moonshield, I'm pleased to say I've seen all the movies you mentioned. I
recall "Menthol" using some underscore. But I saw it at the SBFF over a
year ago. "Computer Chess" and the Haneke films are good examples.
I guess I'm just not seeing the trend you are.
I was at that same Menthol screening! The director is a friend of mine. And I think you might be right, there's undertones on one particular scene in the climax. I remember him telling me he caved and decided to add them at the last minute.

I still haven't thought of any new examples, but as someone above mentioned, all of the Dogme 95 films follow that as a rule. Maybe it's not as current of a trend as I thought, but I do stand by my statement that films are becoming quieter. Alcove mentioned films are actually getting louder, and he's right when you're talking about the mix itself, but I'm talking about overall use of music. If you watch movies from the 80s and 90s there's music pouring over every scene at different dynamic levels. Even scenes where it's just 2 people casually talking there'll be some light strings of whatever in the BG. Nowadays, most directors and composers leave those scenes completely to the sound designer and only come it with loud music when necessary.
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Old 09-26-2015, 12:52 PM   #24
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Small world!

In general small indie films do not need a big orchestral score so they aren't as
"loud" as a big budget action films. So it's reasonable to say small indie films are
quieter than studio films.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshieldmedia View Post
I still haven't thought of any new examples, but as someone above mentioned, all of the Dogme 95 films follow that as a rule.
I wouldn't call the Dogme 95 movement modern - it ended 10 years ago and
according to the website produced only 35 films. But I'll give you that; films
that prescribed to that manifesto would certainly fit your criteria.

BTW to Scoopicman and Dready: I don't think initiativeaudio was asking how
can he find composers. I think he was asking producers how they find composers.
What do they look for, where do they look.
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Old 09-26-2015, 04:45 PM   #25
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Maybe initiativeaudio would like to know it, to find much more better self-promotion sites on the web.

In my case, i thought that the most (indie)directors donīt look for a special composer. Music isnīt that important for the most directors. Maybe if a movie goes bigger with much more budget and a better cast.


"In general small indie films do not need a big orchestral score(...)"
Well, thats right. A composer should always say this to the director, if its not fit to the movie. But you cal also create a big score without any orchestral sound. Everything is possible
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Old 11-09-2015, 11:07 PM   #26
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Random suggestion: If you're looking for young, talented composers, go to the IMDb page for a movie or show whose score you like, and contact the *additional music composers.* They're young, they're hungry, you already like their work, and they're waaaaay cheaper than the person with the main music credit.
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Old 11-10-2015, 11:59 AM   #27
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I'm facing a similar challenge: how do I find directors and filmmakers? I'm a composer, and I want to meet people making films. So far I have reached out to my network, posted in online classifieds, browsed jobs offered/wanted boards, joined meetups, but it all feels like shooting in the dark. I imagine we might be going through the same thing.

I would really like to meet more student filmmakers, or filmmakers recently out of school, so maybe the same can be said for filmmakers looking for composers recently out of school too. I think about director/composer relationships, like Burton/Elfman, Abrams/Giacchino, etc, and I feel like they grow over time, from when these creators start in their career. If goal is to work on short films and features, as opposed to commercial and corporate work/sync opportunities, connecting with new directors and composers seems like the way to go.

I also feel like it depends where you are located. Here in nyc, it seems every request for composer post has at least 200 replies, so it feels daunting to try and add your voice to an already saturated market. It a smaller city, I imagine the opposite is true, it's probably hard to find somebody local who meets an expectation of quality and skill.

All the other suggestions on this thread are good too: IMDB page, paying whatever you can for music = value, cold calling, etc.
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Old 11-10-2015, 12:47 PM   #28
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I'm visiting my GF in boston. While I'm here I'm actually going to go to meet a composer today who lives here in the city. He posted a thread on indietalk a few months back.

Who knows though! I've never worked with a composer before, it never worked out.

I would also NEVER hire (pay for) a composer that had no samples of their work applied to film. Just straight tracks by themselves don't sell me.

I offered a composer I'm FB friends with an opportunity to rescore a 3 minute short of mine but they said they don't do anything for free. So bizarre, i was actually trying to help him out. Dude has no samples of his work applied to film. But he didn't want any either so I guess he is still getting paid somehow.

Certainly he seemed to have no desire to build a relationship with a nobody like me
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:04 PM   #29
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There are loads of film composers out there for sure...trust me, I know - I am one! I think it ends up being more a matter of who you get along with as far as their personality, tastes in film and music, what other things you have in common, etc. I have found the strongest relationships I've built with other filmmakers has been around what other films and film scores we both like.

Obviously, you have to like their music and sense of aesthetic, but working with a composer on a film score, especially a feature, can be a pretty intense collaboration, so it helps if they are actually nice/fun/cool to hang out with and can talk about other things other than just the film's score.

As far as when to look for one, as any film composer would say, the earlier the better. Although the real work can't start until there's at least a rough cut, there can always be conversation about the feel and sound of the film even before it's shot. The more conversation there is about the film - the characters, the story, the visual aesthetic - the better chance of a solid conceptualization of the sound of the score to materialize. And it always is helpful for the composer to get a good idea of the taste and aesthetic of the director - what other films and/or film scores he/she likes, etc.
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Old 04-10-2016, 02:50 PM   #30
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Title pretty much says it all. Where do you look for your composers and at what stage of the process do you tend to start looking. I'm super interested to see what people's habits are, what websites they frequent and whatnot.

Also, is original music something that you find worth investing in or are you more likely to find affordable library music?
Hello. Here is my portfolio some country.folk happy music , logos & idents
Thank you for buy
http://audiojungle.net/user/jackdew/portfolio
http://www.pond5.com/artist/Michaljospetr
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