Los Angeles Audio Post?

Back up a little...

Mix what in one or two days? A short? A feature? Are you looking for a stereo mix? Surround? Dolby certified? Atmos? (sorry; just had to add that...)

Do you want a full audio post? Or do you just want a mix? Did you do the sound design work? What format are your files in?

There are a bunch of "boutique" shops in the LA area (they are usually in homes, garages, etc.), but they are still on the expensive side - at least as far as indie types are concerned. They will be fairly small rooms and not certified.

BTW, it usually takes me five (5) to six (6) hours per linear minute of film to do the audio post (dialog edit, Foley, sound effects, drop in & edit the source music, drop in the score, pre-dubs). It takes me between one to 2.5 hours per linear minute of film to do a nice mix.

What you should do is Google up rerecording facilities and start making phone calls or sending emails. I like phone calls better - if you get a receptionist you probably can't afford them....

Alcove Audio said:

Back up a little...

Mix what in one or two days? A short? A feature? Are you looking for a stereo mix? Surround? Dolby certified? Atmos? (sorry; just had to add that...)

Do you want a full audio post? Or do you just want a mix? Did you do the sound design work? What format are your files in?

There are a bunch of "boutique" shops in the LA area (they are usually in homes, garages, etc.), but they are still on the expensive side - at least as far as indie types are concerned. They will be fairly small rooms and not certified.

BTW, it usually takes me five (5) to six (6) hours per linear minute of film to do the audio post (dialog edit, Foley, sound effects, drop in & edit the source music, drop in the score, pre-dubs). It takes me between one to 2.5 hours per linear minute of film to do a nice mix.

What you should do is Google up rerecording facilities and start making phone calls or sending emails. I like phone calls better - if you get a receptionist you probably can't afford them....

Click to expand...

Yeah I already have a list of bookmarked websites for various studios in LA, but before I make calls I was hoping someone here might have a recommendation or even help with a personal referral for a specific place.

To answer some of your questions, it's a 97 minute feature film, mix only, maybe just stereo (possibly LCR for a DCP).

The things is, I know a decent amount of audio guys with their own home studios, but I don't think I can just trust someone who only has a few low budget commercials or whatever to show on their websites. I don't care how much they know about sound, or how expensive their equipment is, I need to be able to watch and listen to an actual film that they've done. I want to be a fan of their work first.

The reason I asked about a "less comprehensive audio pass" is because I remember reading about a similar story somewhere. The filmmaker contacted a post house but couldn't afford the rate, so he negotiated a deal where they would do just a kind of quick "once through" dialogue edit/design/mix for a fixed amount of cash. I can't imagine it sounded SUPER polished, but he was happy.

Try contacting Darious Britt. He recently shipped his film up to LA to be graded and mixed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3uu1sLy9Z4

Perhaps you could get a hold of him and get the address/name of the post-house.

Good luck!

ChimpPhobiaFilms said:

Try contacting Darious Britt. He recently shipped his film up to LA to be graded and mixed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3uu1sLy9Z4

Perhaps you could get a hold of him and get the address/name of the post-house.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

I appreciate the tip, thanks for that!

Have you checked out Linked In?

moonshieldmedia said:

I don't care how much they know about sound, or how expensive their equipment is, I need to be able to watch and listen to an actual film that they've done. I want to be a fan of their work first.

Click to expand...

True, they need to obviously have artistic talent but don't discount audio knowledge/experience and quality of equipment, both of which are also essential for a decent quality final mix and especially so in your particular case. You've mentioned DCP, which implies a theatrical release or at least a theatrical screening. Without a considerable amount of knowledge and the right equipment, it's most likely that you will be disappointed by the results when you see the film in the cinema, because mixing a feature in a relatively small room (say a large music studio sized room) has all kinds of problems. Even someone with a great deal of knowledge and high end equipment is going to be working to some degree "in the dark" (without a full-sized commercial mix stage).

Be warned (!), it's relatively easy to create a mix which sounds good (or even great) in a small or even a large studio (as opposed to a full-sized mix stage). This same mix may (or may not) also sound good or great on your (or someone you know's) home theatre system but none of this is any indication of whether the mix will actually sound like that or work well in a cinema. I mention all this because the budget you have is kind of in the middle. It's too low for a proper full-sized commercial mix stage but high enough to put you well above the student/recent graduate/"experienced music producer looking to get into film" sector. In other words, with $2k to spend, you should be expecting more than a good (or very good) amateur or semi-pro quality mix. The difficulty you've got is how do you know if you are listening to decent mix and are a "fan of their work" when it might sound great in their studio or on a home system but nowhere near as good in an actual cinema?

moonshieldmedia said:

it's a 97 minute feature film, mix only, maybe just stereo (possibly LCR for a DCP).

Click to expand...

As a rule of thumb, commercial mix stages will usually require at least 1 day per reel (A/B reel) for final mixing. 97 mins is about 5 reels, so about 5 days minimum. But, that's assuming a relatively well done and well organised pre-mix which I presume you don't have. Your budget is therefore at least 5 times and probably 10 times (or more) lower than the likely rates of one of the lower priced full-sized commercial mix stages. However, it's not out of the question that you could find one who would take on this job. Occasionally, during a quiet period, some of the commercial mix stages will take on a very low budget gig, to maybe use as training material for interns/apprentices. The mix would still be supervised by an experienced re-recording pro, so the quality would likely be only a little less than their usual commercial quality. Of course it's down to pure luck whether you'll be able to find one of the mix stages which sometimes do this, happens to have a window like this coming up and which will take on your film. If you can find one though, this would give you far and away the best bang for the buck, so it's certainly worth a try, be prepared for hefty amount of rejection though!

Your most likely avenue is one of the smaller boutique establishments in LA mentioned by Alcove and your $2k *might* just about be enough for some of them, depending on several factors, definitely including though how much preparation is required to get your audio ready for mixing. We're back to what I mentioned above though: Watching something they've already done and being "a fan of their work first" is not going to help you as much as you might think, because of the translation issue which always exists between a relatively small room (and the type of audio equipment you need to put in a relatively small room) and a cinema, which is a large room and also requires a totally different type of audio equipment (which sounds different!). A large truck is not a just a standard car or pick-up scaled up!

I'm not sure there's any real way of avoiding this problem, I suppose if there were, there would be no need for all the expensive full-sized mix stages! At least though being aware of the issue is better than going in blind.

G

AudioPostExpert said:

True, they need to obviously have artistic talent but don't discount audio knowledge/experience and quality of equipment, both of which are also essential for a decent quality final mix and especially so in your particular case. You've mentioned DCP, which implies a theatrical release or at least a theatrical screening. Without a considerable amount of knowledge and the right equipment, it's most likely that you will be disappointed by the results when you see the film in the cinema, because mixing a feature in a relatively small room (say a large music studio sized room) has all kinds of problems. Even someone with a great deal of knowledge and high end equipment is going to be working to some degree "in the dark" (without a full-sized commercial mix stage).

Be warned (!), it's relatively easy to create a mix which sounds good (or even great) in a small or even a large studio (as opposed to a full-sized mix stage). This same mix may (or may not) also sound good or great on your (or someone you know's) home theatre system but none of this is any indication of whether the mix will actually sound like that or work well in a cinema. I mention all this because the budget you have is kind of in the middle. It's too low for a proper full-sized commercial mix stage but high enough to put you well above the student/recent graduate/"experienced music producer looking to get into film" sector. In other words, with $2k to spend, you should be expecting more than a good (or very good) amateur or semi-pro quality mix. The difficulty you've got is how do you know if you are listening to decent mix and are a "fan of their work" when it might sound great in their studio or on a home system but nowhere near as good in an actual cinema?



As a rule of thumb, commercial mix stages will usually require at least 1 day per reel (A/B reel) for final mixing. 97 mins is about 5 reels, so about 5 days minimum. But, that's assuming a relatively well done and well organised pre-mix which I presume you don't have. Your budget is therefore at least 5 times and probably 10 times (or more) lower than the likely rates of one of the lower priced full-sized commercial mix stages. However, it's not out of the question that you could find one who would take on this job. Occasionally, during a quiet period, some of the commercial mix stages will take on a very low budget gig, to maybe use as training material for interns/apprentices. The mix would still be supervised by an experienced re-recording pro, so the quality would likely be only a little less than their usual commercial quality. Of course it's down to pure luck whether you'll be able to find one of the mix stages which sometimes do this, happens to have a window like this coming up and which will take on your film. If you can find one though, this would give you far and away the best bang for the buck, so it's certainly worth a try, be prepared for hefty amount of rejection though!

Your most likely avenue is one of the smaller boutique establishments in LA mentioned by Alcove and your $2k *might* just about be enough for some of them, depending on several factors, definitely including though how much preparation is required to get your audio ready for mixing. We're back to what I mentioned above though: Watching something they've already done and being "a fan of their work first" is not going to help you as much as you might think, because of the translation issue which always exists between a relatively small room (and the type of audio equipment you need to put in a relatively small room) and a cinema, which is a large room and also requires a totally different type of audio equipment (which sounds different!). A large truck is not a just a standard car or pick-up scaled up!

I'm not sure there's any real way of avoiding this problem, I suppose if there were, there would be no need for all the expensive full-sized mix stages! At least though being aware of the issue is better than going in blind.

G

Click to expand...

Very helpful, thank you.

I guess I could technically spring for a professional mix and go into CC debt. Filmmaking is fun!

moonshieldmedia said:

I guess I could technically spring for a professional mix and go into CC debt.

Click to expand...

Mmmm, that's a tough call, which would involve many factors, including what ROI you can realistically/objectively expect. On the audio post side, you've got to consider that even with a significantly expanded budget you're still going to be at the bottom end of the professional budget scale. While this would substantially increase the number of boutique establishments interested in mixing your film, you have to ask yourself how much time and effort does your film need and how much time and effort is the boutique establishment actually able/willing to put in? Then the question becomes; is a lesser boutique which can dedicate more time to your film likely to do a better job than a higher quality boutique with substantially less time?

Another element to the equation is something I only touched on in my last post, that your audio probably needs a considerable amount of work before it's actually ready for mixing. JFYI, the mixing phase of audio post is actually split into two stages: The first stage is called the pre-mix; this is where the stems are balanced internally and tweaked, with the majority of the time spent on the dialogue stem. When the pre-mix is complete, and the musical score is finished, you're ready for the last stage, which is aptly called the "final mix". This is where the stems are balanced relative to each other and processed; noise reduction on the production dialogue (sometimes done in the pre-mix), reverb added, dynamic panning applied, EQ applied, ADR processed to match the production dialogue (again, sometimes done in the pre-mix), etc. In practise these days, the pre-mixes are often virtual, meaning that the stems are not actually recorded during pre-mix, just routed to sub-mix busses. This makes it quick/easy to swap out a SFX (for example) without having to re-record a new stem pre-mix. The reel per day rough rule of thumb I mentioned previously is for final mixing, on an average 90min drama there would usually be 2-4 weeks of pre-mixing before the final mixing (in addition to about 6-8 weeks of sound editorial prior to pre-mixing). These time requirements are based on an average micro/low budget feature ($600k - $10m) of which I've got quite a lot of experience and are BTW pretty much identical to high budget TV dramas. Big budget features, blockbusters for example, obviously take much longer but not by as much as you might think because they throw lots of man-power at the problem. For example, they may use 2 or more different dub stages at the same time, to pre-mix the different stems simultaneously. No problem at all for a major Audio Post facility like Todd AO, which has 17 full-sized mix stages throughout their Hollywood, Burbank and Santa Monica facilities, plus various Foley and ADR stages and god knows how many audio edit suites!!

Sorry if this is all a bit of "information overload" but I thought it would be useful to have this info up on IT because few here seem to know much about the professional audio post workflow/process. I realise your film's budget is probably nowhere near the $600k+ bracket but with the amount you have to spend on a mix you are starting to get into the lower end of the professional/commercial audio post market, so it's not a bad idea to have a bit of understanding of how that market works. You're obviously going to have to make a decision which will be a compromise between; the amount of time required for pre-mixing/final mixing, the amount of time you can afford and for what level of professional. The information I've given here has probably complicated your decision but hopefully it will help you to make a more informed one.

I know that no budget filmmakers face huge challenges but having some budget or even quite a serious budget (say 6 or 7 figures) actually does not make filmmaking any easier, if anything, it makes it more complicated!

G

AudioPostExpert said:

Mmmm, that's a tough call, which would involve many factors, including what ROI you can realistically/objectively expect. On the audio post side, you've got to consider that even with a significantly expanded budget you're still going to be at the bottom end of the professional budget scale. While this would substantially increase the number of boutique establishments interested in mixing your film, you have to ask yourself how much time and effort does your film need and how much time and effort is the boutique establishment actually able/willing to put in? Then the question becomes; is a lesser boutique which can dedicate more time to your film likely to do a better job than a higher quality boutique with substantially less time?

Another element to the equation is something I only touched on in my last post, that your audio probably needs a considerable amount of work before it's actually ready for mixing. JFYI, the mixing phase of audio post is actually split into two stages: The first stage is called the pre-mix; this is where the stems are balanced internally and tweaked, with the majority of the time spent on the dialogue stem. When the pre-mix is complete, and the musical score is finished, you're ready for the last stage, which is aptly called the "final mix". This is where the stems are balanced relative to each other and processed; noise reduction on the production dialogue (sometimes done in the pre-mix), reverb added, dynamic panning applied, EQ applied, ADR processed to match the production dialogue (again, sometimes done in the pre-mix), etc. In practise these days, the pre-mixes are often virtual, meaning that the stems are not actually recorded during pre-mix, just routed to sub-mix busses. This makes it quick/easy to swap out a SFX (for example) without having to re-record a new stem pre-mix. The reel per day rough rule of thumb I mentioned previously is for final mixing, on an average 90min drama there would usually be 2-4 weeks of pre-mixing before the final mixing (in addition to about 6-8 weeks of sound editorial prior to pre-mixing). These time requirements are based on an average micro/low budget feature ($600k - $10m) of which I've got quite a lot of experience and are BTW pretty much identical to high budget TV dramas. Big budget features, blockbusters for example, obviously take much longer but not by as much as you might think because they throw lots of man-power at the problem. For example, they may use 2 or more different dub stages at the same time, to pre-mix the different stems simultaneously. No problem at all for a major Audio Post facility like Todd AO, which has 17 full-sized mix stages throughout their Hollywood, Burbank and Santa Monica facilities, plus various Foley and ADR stages and god knows how many audio edit suites!!

Sorry if this is all a bit of "information overload" but I thought it would be useful to have this info up on IT because few here seem to know much about the professional audio post workflow/process. I realise your film's budget is probably nowhere near the $600k+ bracket but with the amount you have to spend on a mix you are starting to get into the lower end of the professional/commercial audio post market, so it's not a bad idea to have a bit of understanding of how that market works. You're obviously going to have to make a decision which will be a compromise between; the amount of time required for pre-mixing/final mixing, the amount of time you can afford and for what level of professional. The information I've given here has probably complicated your decision but hopefully it will help you to make a more informed one.

I know that no budget filmmakers face huge challenges but having some budget or even quite a serious budget (say 6 or 7 figures) actually does not make filmmaking any easier, if anything, it makes it more complicated!

G

Click to expand...

Even though my post about Credit Card debt was a joke, I appreciate the info and I'm sure others will learn from it as well.

At the amount of money I've already spent making the film, I'm fairly confident I can make my money back by self distribution online. I guess the decision for me would be: Do I want to spend MORE money to make the film more attractive to other distributors? It's a bigger gamble with potential for a higher reward. But like you said, if I spend more money on sound, it still might not be enough to tip the quality scale enough to make a difference. At the end of the day it's either a good movie or it's not, and upping the production value can only do so much for me in such a late stage.

I can't advise here at all. Just wanted to thank the folks above for their very informative posts. Thread bookmarked.

moonshieldmedia said:

At the amount of money I've already spent making the film, I'm fairly confident I can make my money back by self distribution online. I guess the decision for me would be: Do I want to spend MORE money to make the film more attractive to other distributors? It's a bigger gamble with potential for a higher reward.

Click to expand...

I absolutely agree. My advice generally on IndieTalk is to balance whatever budget you do have, to get a balanced film. By this I mean that you're not going to end up with a better film by spending most (or a disproportionate amount) of your budget on sound. Adding good sound to a poor film does not make it a good film, at best it's probably no more than just a slightly less poor film with good sound!

Having said this, for the very lo budget filmmaker there are audio production value "milestones" or "boundaries" which **can make a big difference. A big difference in terms different distribution "doors" which can be opened or closed and therefore a big difference (potentially) in getting a ROI. A lot of IT members don't seem to realise or consider this when planning their film and therefore end up with something they can't distribute how they wanted. For example, I'm sure most here shoot and edit in HD resolution, without maybe realising that except for Youtube, Vimeo and other public self upload sites, in most cases they can't actually distribute their film in HD!

I'm sure you already know all this MoonShield but for the benefit of others, it's maybe worth mentioning what these audio production value boundaries and distribution "doors" are:

1. The first "boundary" is a 5.1 mix and the "doors" this can open are: 1. Your film **can be accepted into the high tier film festivals. All the major international film festivals demand a film with 5.1 mix for screening. 2. iTunes and many other commercial self distribution channels are now only allowing you to upload HD content if it has a 5.1 mix. With just a stereo mix, your only choices are to upload a SD version or not to use that distribution outlet. It's worth appreciating that in the commercial world "HD" is not just a picture resolution it's a specification, and that specification includes a 5.1 mix. 3. While DVD and BluRay don't technically require a 5.1 mix, in practise a 5.1 mix is in most cases a standard minimum consumer expectation.

2. The next "boundary" (in addition to a 5.1 mix) is the creation of an M&E mix. For those who don't know, an M&E (Music and Effects) mix is a mix containing the entire audio mix but without the dialogue. Having an M&E mix **opens the door to all the commercial distributors and broadcasters. Note that an M&E mix is used for dubbing in foreign languages but is virtually always a standard delivery requirement of the bigger commercial distributors/broadcasters, even if they have no intention of distributing or licensing the film to any foreign language territories. Also note that creating a commercially acceptable M&E mix is usually a very time consuming and therefore expensive undertaking. Balanced against this additional cost is potential access to a whole world of distributors/broadcasters, including those in developing markets who are crying out for decent low budget content.

3. Another boundary is an integrated loudness compliant mix, which is essential for broadcast in a rapidly growing number of territories. The cost of this though is not particularly significant and would (or most certainly should!) be automatically assumed and discussed by whatever audio post person/company you are using.

** I just want to make it clear (in case it isn't), that achieving these audio boundaries does not of course by itself guarantee distribution, it just makes these distribution channels a possibility (opens the door). Whether a distributor will want to buy/distribute/broadcast your film will depend on the content (story, acting, etc.) which brings us back to a balanced approach to filmmaking. Conversely, it doesn't matter how good the content, how great the cinematography, acting or story is, or how good your film is overall, if these audio boundaries are not met those distribution doors will still ultimately be closed!

Again, I just want to make it clear that I'm NOT saying; either make your film with a 5.1 mix or you shouldn't make it at all! I'm saying that when you're planning your film and deciding what it's goals are, for example; if/how/where you would like to ultimately distribute it (if a goal is to make some ROI), then your deliberations must include which of these audio boundaries (if any) you will need to meet. This will then of course inform your decision of how to fund your film and how to allocate the budget to achieve your goals. And, it should go without saying, that it's far more efficient (a cheaper AND better quality final result) to work this out during the planning phase than it is to retro-actively try and achieve one or more of these audio boundaries when the film is otherwise already finished! Once again, this info is aimed specifically at the very lo budget filmmaker because in the traditional commercial micro/low/medium/high budget filmmaking sectors, achieving these audio boundaries is a "given". And lastly, if what I've written here has caused you to pause/think and you decide to do some further research in this area, be careful about your sources of information! Many of today's distribution audio requirements are very different to the requirements of distributors/broadcasters 10 years ago and for some distribution outlets are substantially different from even just 2 or 3 years ago. This evolution of audio requirements is likely to continue as 4k eventually becomes the new HD and current HD becomes the de facto "baseline standard" (as it already is for many of the big TV networks for example).

I hope some find this info useful, even though it's maybe a little off topic, sorry OP.

G

Great post AudioPostExpert.