so much audio equipment

sfoster · Jul 25, 2013

I have a 3 page script and a storyboard, I want to make this film but I need to get the audio sorted out.

I have two locations, one is indoor with two people, the other is outdoor with 3 people.

It seems like there is a lot to consider.. lav mics, shotgun mics, field mixers, digital recorders, wireless transmitters.

I just want to record these two dialog scenes, with great quality and not spending a lot of money. Is that asking too much

I'm worried if I try to use a shotgun mic for everything it will echo too much indoors and then pick up traffic outdoors. Does that mean I should use a lav mic? But then when two actors talk close to each other I hear that can cause problems too.. Maybe just one omni lav mic and have the person wearing it talk a little quieter?

I want to get moving on this project

Alcove Audio · Jul 25, 2013

Hire someone who knows what they are doing. If you shoot for two days that will cost you between $200 and $500 ($100 to $250 per day). Buying a decent production sound kit will cost about $1,200. Even if you spend $1,200 you will not get the quality of sound you will get if you hire someone because you have neither the skill set nor the experience - or even the equipment. Even an ambitious up-and-comer working for $100 a day will have better gear than your $1,200 will buy.

All that said, here's the $1,200 buying guide. Select one from each category:

Shotgun mic kits will have the shotgun mic, boom-pole, shock-mount and simple wind protection (softie).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...chnica_AT897BK_AT_897_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461493-REG/Rode_NTG_1_Shotgun_Condenser.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/747422-REG/Rode_NTG_2_Shotgun_Microphone_HDSLR.html

Hypercardioid mic:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/359043-REG/sE_Electronics_SE1A_SE1A_Small_Diaphragm.html

Audio recorders:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821260-REG/Roland_R_26_R_26_6_Channel_Digital_Field.html

Headphones:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506_MDR_7506_Headphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/507447-REG/Sennheiser_HD_25_1_II_HD_25_1_II.html

You'll also need cables, cases, battery packs and other miscellaneous items - about $200+.

But who is going to run the sound for you? They will know less about sound than you do; and you don't know much. (Don't be insulted, I wouldn't know an F-stop from a bus stop; and I'm married a photographer.) That's always the issue - knowledge, skill and experience. Even if you learn a lot about sound when you are on the set you won't be handling the sound responsibilities, someone else will, because you can't direct, DP and do production sound all at the same time.

ChimpPhobiaFilms · Jul 25, 2013

Alcove Audio said:
Hire someone who knows what they are doing. If you shoot for two days that will cost you between $200 and $500 ($100 to $250 per day). Buying a decent production sound kit will cost about $1,200. Even if you spend $1,200 you will not get the quality of sound you will get if you hire someone because you have neither the skill set nor the experience - or even the equipment. Even an ambitious up-and-comer working for $100 a day will have better gear than your $1,200 will buy.

All that said, here's the $1,200 buying guide. Select one from each category:

Shotgun mic kits will have the shotgun mic, boom-pole, shock-mount and simple wind protection (softie).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...chnica_AT897BK_AT_897_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461493-REG/Rode_NTG_1_Shotgun_Condenser.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/747422-REG/Rode_NTG_2_Shotgun_Microphone_HDSLR.html

Hypercardioid mic:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/359043-REG/sE_Electronics_SE1A_SE1A_Small_Diaphragm.html

Audio recorders:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821260-REG/Roland_R_26_R_26_6_Channel_Digital_Field.html

Headphones:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506_MDR_7506_Headphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/507447-REG/Sennheiser_HD_25_1_II_HD_25_1_II.html

You'll also need cables, cases, battery packs and other miscellaneous items - about $200+.

But who is going to run the sound for you? They will know less about sound than you do; and you don't know much. (Don't be insulted, I wouldn't know an F-stop from a bus stop; and I'm married a photographer.) That's always the issue - knowledge, skill and experience. Even if you learn a lot about sound when you are on the set you won't be handling the sound responsibilities, someone else will, because you can't direct, DP and do production sound all at the same time.

I knew you were going to be the first person to reply to this thread :lol:

IndiePaul · Jul 25, 2013

Great post by Alcove Audio.

sfoster - do a search on 'audio' or look at the newbie and gear threads etc, you'll find your question has been asked numerous times - lots of info available.

sfoster · Jul 26, 2013

Alcove Audio said:
Hire someone who knows what they are doing. If you shoot for two days that will cost you between $200 and $500 ($100 to $250 per day). Buying a decent production sound kit will cost about $1,200. Even if you spend $1,200 you will not get the quality of sound you will get if you hire someone because you have neither the skill set nor the experience - or even the equipment. Even an ambitious up-and-comer working for $100 a day will have better gear than your $1,200 will buy.

But who is going to run the sound for you? They will know less about sound than you do; and you don't know much. (Don't be insulted, I wouldn't know an F-stop from a bus stop; and I'm married a photographer.) That's always the issue - knowledge, skill and experience. Even if you learn a lot about sound when you are on the set you won't be handling the sound responsibilities, someone else will, because you can't direct, DP and do production sound all at the same time.

well said, thanks

IndiePaul said:
Great post by Alcove Audio.

sfoster - do a search on 'audio' or look at the newbie and gear threads etc, you'll find your question has been asked numerous times - lots of info available.

I posted this while I started searching..

Okay so it seems I should just hire a professional.. what I want to film for my first project could be done in a single day.

should I be looking on mandy? I saw someone mention that when i was browsing around

Alcove Audio · Jul 26, 2013

Get in touch with Ty Ford; he's in Maryland, as you are. You won't be able to afford him, but he's a really nice guy and can probably point you in the right direction. He's been a big help to me over the years.

http://www.productionhub.com/directory/view.aspx?item=145240

Also check out Production Hub. The folks there will range from Ty's level to hungry, ambitious up-and-comers. Be sure to check references.

BTW, include the PSM (Production Sound Mixer, who will probably also be your boom-op) in the preproduction, and listen to what they have to say, there and on the set. Make sure that you schedule the time on-set to capture room-tone/ambient-tone, and do dialog wilds (recording a few takes of dialog after the shooting of the scene is done) if the PSM says you may need it. Part of my preproduction consultation mantra is every dollar/minute you spend on production sound will save you ten dollars/minutes in audio post. ADR (Automated Dialog Replacement) and NR (Noise Reduction) are very time consuming.

Always keep in mind that production sound is only half the battle when it comes to sound-for-picture. Production sound is only the fodder for audio post (which is my specialty). I would recommend that you retain someone to do your audio post as well, for all the same reasons (you don't have the skill set, experience or equipment). If you don't want to hire me (-

-) retain someone local and sit with him/her for every boring minute as a learning experience. When it's time to do Foley you can run the system or even perform the Foley yourself. And maybe accompany your post sound person when they go out to do field recordings. You'll learn more in a few days than in a whole semester of film school.

sfoster · Jul 31, 2013

Alcove Audio said:
All that said, here's the $1,200 buying guide. Select one from each category:

Shotgun mic kits will have the shotgun mic, boom-pole, shock-mount and simple wind protection (softie).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

Hypercardioid mic:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/359043-REG/sE_Electronics_SE1A_SE1A_Small_Diaphragm.html

Audio recorders:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

You'll also need cables, cases, battery packs and other miscellaneous items - about $200+.

It looks like I could get the audio recorder and a shotgun mic from that package for about $500. There's another $400 of extra's thrown in there for the boompole, softie, etc.

Aren't those things that I could DIY?

How is the Hypercardioid used in conjunction with the shotgun? Is it to record RA?

Alcove Audio · Jul 31, 2013

sfoster said:
There's another $400 of extra's thrown in there for the boompole, softie, etc. Aren't those things that I could DIY?

They are not "throw-ins;" they are integral parts of the sound kit. The accessories are just as important as the rest of the gear, and many will outlast the gear as they are compatible with 99% of the other production sound gear out there as you upgrade. Many, many problems come from cheaping out on the accessories.

Sure, you can DIY a boom-pole, but a DIY boom-pole will probably be heavier and more prone to noise, and probably have less reach. I doubt that you could DIY a softie that will not seriously affect the sound quality, unless you make it out of acoustic foam, in which case it will probably cost more than buying one.

sfoster said:
How is the Hypercardioid used in conjunction with the shotgun? Is it to record RA?

It's not, the hyper is used indoors instead of the shotgun.

Whatever happened to retaining someone who actually knows what they are doing?

sfoster · Jul 31, 2013

Alcove Audio said:
It's not, the hyper is used indoors instead of the shotgun.

Ah right, thank you. I only started investigating audio when I joined this forum. I remember reading it somewhere now that you mention it. There's a study that says to forget and relearn is the best method of retention, so it should stick with me this time

Alcove Audio said:
Whatever happened to retaining someone who actually knows what they are doing?

I'm still feeling out my options and stressing over the decision :lol:

Might is kind of tight, equipment feels like more of an investment for the long term. I could spend time experimenting and learning the audio stuff, which is always great to get a better mastery of the craft.

Also directorik was prodding me heavily to amp up my scheduled quantity of short films over the next year.. It sounds nice to have to freedom to bribe a friend every now and then, and not have to hire staff for every little thing. If I learn a little, and prepare beforehand for each location, is that unreasonable?

It also sounds nice to hire someone for this first short and get it off my shoulders!! I might end up doing both.. my next project will take many months before the script is even finished, plus actors, location, music and storyboard. Plenty of time to tinker with audio while I tackle that.

I've been putting the final tweaks on my first screen play, making it a little sleeker. A man in my high rise would be fantastic for the last role.. I'm approaching him about the idea this week, it feels great to have confidence in my product.

Alcove Audio · Jul 31, 2013

sfoster said:
It also sounds nice to hire someone for this first short and get it off my shoulders!!

I'll repeat from earlier in the thread:

...who is going to run the sound for you? They will know less about sound than you do; and you don't know much. (Don't be insulted, I wouldn't know an F-stop from a bus stop; and I'm married a photographer.) That's always the issue - knowledge, skill and experience. Even if you learn a lot about sound when you are on the set you won't be handling the sound responsibilities, someone else will, because you can't direct, DP and do production sound all at the same time.

I've mentioned it many other times in other threads; you will learn more from few days exposure with a professional than you will from months of reading and many more months of trial and error. I know this from personal experience. Hire pro, learn from him/her. Then apply the lessons. But you are still faced with someone else running the gear.

sfoster · Jul 31, 2013

Alcove Audio said:
I'll repeat from earlier in the thread:

I've mentioned it many other times in other threads; you will learn more from few days exposure with a professional than you will from months of reading and many more months of trial and error. I know this from personal experience. Hire pro, learn from him/her. Then apply the lessons. But you are still faced with someone else running the gear.

I think hiring someone for the first time is a good way to go, it will allow me to study from them and learn the ropes like you say. But hiring someone for all subsequent shorts and experiments seems wrong. I'd rather sacrifice a little production value in those other shorts for the sake of freedom to experiment and film more often.

this first one though..i spent forever perfecting the script and it's going to be as nice as i can make it

Alcove Audio · Aug 1, 2013

Sound is HALF of the experience."

So you're willing to sacrifice half of the quality of your projects? What if the magic happens on the set of a project, and it all falls apart in post because you had crappy production sound?

Look around for an ambitious up-and-coming PSM/Boom-Op and grow together. I have long maintained that the "new" generation of filmmakers will be like bands - a core group of people who work together consistently. In fact, look at some of the greatest directors; they seem(ed) to work with the same core group of department heads on a regular basis.

sfoster · Aug 1, 2013

Alcove Audio said:
Look around for an ambitious up-and-coming PSM/Boom-Op and grow together. I have long maintained that the "new" generation of filmmakers will be like bands - a core group of people who work together consistently. In fact, look at some of the greatest directors; they seem(ed) to work with the same core group of department heads on a regular basis.

Where do I look around for up-&-comers?
I noticed that your suggested kit doesn't have a field mixer. Are the gain and level not important?

In life you've got to work with what you've got. I can't afford to hire someone for every time I want to practice honing my craft.

I would love to make some connections like that, but for now I still need to get my first short made :no:

until that happens, I'm nobody. been in preproduction hell forever, I can't want to see if i have what it takes.

Alcove Audio · Aug 1, 2013

Networking is an integral part of filmmaking; expand your network. Start with MeetUp.com; there are probably a few film groups in your area. Advertise on CraigsList. Look for audio/film students at local colleges and universities, even high schools. Perhaps a rental or production house in your area has an intern who may be interested, or knows someone who may be interested. Work on other peoples projects; you'll learn a lot and perhaps you'll meet someone there; collect favors. Give Ty Ford a shout (post #6 in this thread); as I said, he's nice guy and may have some suggestions as he's in Maryland.

And once again, don't cheap out on the gear; you'll save yourself MANY headaches. Start with the Tascam DR-40 (get the battery pack), the Audio Technica AT875 kit and the Avantone CK-1; add a quality mic cable - total under $1,000. Remember, it's an INVESTMENT in your future, and the only thing that will become obsolete is the DR-40, and even that will last a number of years. I've had most of my mics for 20+ years, and couple for almost 30 years. The mics will have more resale value than almost any other piece of tech you own, although you should just add mics to your mic collection. The boom-pole and other accessories will be compatible with $150 mics and $2,000 mics and outlast several recorders and cameras if you take care of them (just like tripods and C-stands). I still have a mic stand from when I was a teenager almost 40 years ago. In fact, in my studio, pretty much the only thing that's really changed over the last 25 years is the computer and software; investing in quality goes long way.