iMovie3 or Final Cut Pro or Final Cut Express - IndieTalk

Catalina · 08-26-2004, 07:11 PM

I am needing some advice.
I have made a few amateurish vacation type movies on iMovie and now that I am considering doing something more feature-length (but still on a 10K budget), I was considering upgrading to Final Cut Pro or Express. But I have heard there is a daunting learning curve because it is so much more powerful than iMovie. Should I get Express and hope it's powerful enough that once I learn it I can still do my movie or should I jump in the deep end (both in terms of learning and in terms of money) and get Pro?
Any advice is appreciated.
Catalina

**Zensteve** · 08-26-2004, 07:29 PM

I've never used Final Cut "anything"... so I'm no help there.

However, if you are going to take on software with a "steep learning curve", you should visit your local Community College. They should have classes available for "Continuing Education" or "Adult Career Retraining" or whatever they call the old-fogey classes near you.

The classes are pretty cheap... and very good. (At least near me) This is the first thing I do, when jumping headfirst into new fun software.

You'll also be eligible for the "student" version of most the software, as well. Full working versions, at a quarter the pricetag. Bonus!

directorlca · 08-26-2004, 07:36 PM

Hey Catalina,

Well Final Cut Express and Final Cut pro are very very similar as far as using it, so either one would take about the same basic learning time. IN order to answer your question more, what kind of camera are you using? If you are only using DV, then Final Cut would be fine, but if you plan on using any other format or compressions (HD and all those other codecs) then Final Cut Pro would be the way to go. Also Final Cut Pro allows you to keyframe effects and filters, where in FInal Cut Express you can only have one filter setting per clip and it cannot change throughout the duration of the clip. Those are the 2 main differences. The layouts are the same, they work the same.

BUT, Final Cut 4 does come with a lot of other programs: CineTools (good for using footage from the AG-DVX100), LiveType (A cool titling program), and Soundtrack (Yay for loops. . .).

If you have the budget for it, you might look at the new Production Suite from Apple, which includes Final Cut 4 (and all those programs I just listed) and DVD STudio Pro3, and Motion, so if you've got the budget and plan on doing a lot of crazy video stuff on your computer, do that.

If you just want to edit DV clips, go FInal Cut Express... . Well there's my really long "answer" to your question. Hope some of that helps!

OrangeMango · 08-26-2004, 08:32 PM

I've only used Final Cut Pro, and I must say that I picked it up pretty quickly. Within two hours of learning the basics, I was speeding along and had my short film edited within a few hours. I am, of course, a Macintosh techie, so that might explain things. What helped the learning curve was that my editing station had little stickers on the keyboard to show which key did which function.

Shaw · 08-26-2004, 10:44 PM

Never used Final Cut ever but I doubt it is much different than Premiere Pro (which I use). Don't worry about the learning curve so much. It's really not that bad if you have a decent book to walk you through the essentials. I sat down and taught myself PPro in a week (granted you always learn the most by editing actual footage but I taught myself the interface and workflow). If you understand the basics of video editing I wouldn't think the learning curve would be too steap. FCP is powerful though so I may be wrong in this regard

King Goldfish · 08-26-2004, 11:28 PM

hey Shaw, can you make tutorials on the basics of Premier for me?

you have camtasia by chance?

CCLVideo · 08-27-2004, 08:04 AM

I use FCP and I too taught myself how to use it in a very short period of time. Infact it was the first time I had ever used an apple so I say it's a good bargin. Plus if your in school or know someone who is in school you can get FCP the acidemic version (which is no different then the regular version plus free upgrades) for about 500 bones.

Catalina · 08-27-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by directorlca

Hey Catalina,

Well Final Cut Express and Final Cut pro are very very similar as far as using it, so either one would take about the same basic learning time. IN order to answer your question more, what kind of camera are you using? If you are only using DV, then Final Cut would be fine, but if you plan on using any other format or compressions (HD and all those other codecs) then Final Cut Pro would be the way to go. Also Final Cut Pro allows you to keyframe effects and filters, where in FInal Cut Express you can only have one filter setting per clip and it cannot change throughout the duration of the clip. Those are the 2 main differences. The layouts are the same, they work the same.

BUT, Final Cut 4 does come with a lot of other programs: CineTools (good for using footage from the AG-DVX100), LiveType (A cool titling program), and Soundtrack (Yay for loops. . .).

If you have the budget for it, you might look at the new Production Suite from Apple, which includes Final Cut 4 (and all those programs I just listed) and DVD STudio Pro3, and Motion, so if you've got the budget and plan on doing a lot of crazy video stuff on your computer, do that.

If you just want to edit DV clips, go FInal Cut Express... . Well there's my really long "answer" to your question. Hope some of that helps!

Thanks, that was really helpful - thanks for all of you!
I didn't really understand the part about compression and filters and HD, but I can tell you that I am planning on shooting on 24p like the AG-DVX100 (not that I bought the camera yet!) Does that mean that I should get FCPro rather than FCExpress?
Catalina

Shaw · 08-27-2004, 02:49 PM

King Goldfish,

I could certainly write up something if you would like

. I'm not sure what the word limit (if there is one) is for the articles section - maybe Indie could help us out if I were to make a PDF or RTF file?

What sort of subjects would you be interested in?

Banned: rizien · 08-27-2004, 03:21 PM

Premiere Pro was really easy for me. I tried windows movie maker once, a long time ago, when i had nothing else, and had to get something better. And i did, by my own means

.

Back to the point(which is slightly off topic, sorry) All the basics are pretty self explanatory. I just experimented around and learned a lot in one little setting. Ofcourse to do the really awesome things you gotta spend more time, maybe even read a book (yea right..lol)

I assume FCP is almost the same, i FEEL like its a macintosh version of Premiere, but i dont know, i've never used it. Basically Macintosh junkies use FCP, and PC people use Adobe.

So to king : Its easy, just play around.
to Catalina: Its probably the same, but dont take my word.

CommanderGoat · 08-29-2004, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catalina

I didn't really understand the part about compression and filters and HD, but I can tell you that I am planning on shooting on 24p like the AG-DVX100 (not that I bought the camera yet!) Does that mean that I should get FCPro rather than FCExpress?

I'm not sure if this is right(I'm sure some will correct me if I'm wrong), but I think FCExpress cannot do 24P. I'm pretty sure you will need Pro(or HD as it's now called) for 24P.

Catalina · 08-31-2004, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderGoat

I'm not sure if this is right(I'm sure some will correct me if I'm wrong), but I think FCExpress cannot do 24P. I'm pretty sure you will need Pro(or HD as it's now called) for 24P.

This is the critical question for me. I hope someone can answer this so I can finally go out and get the right software!
Catalina

directorlca · 08-31-2004, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catalina

This is the critical question for me. I hope someone can answer this so I can finally go out and get the right software!
Catalina

Alright, hang on tight. Here's the thing with the whole 24P business. When you use the AGDVX100, no matter what setting you're using it is always in 29.97. 24P mode is still 29.97, but the WAY it records the frames are different, so it looks more filmic I guess you'd say. You can still use final cut express, and for basic stuff that would be the way to go, but if you want. . . CineTools (comes with Final Cut 4) can convert material from the DVX100 in 24P mode into real 24fps footage. If you took that route, you would need to also make sure you setup final cut's editing timecode to 24 (well 23.98). I wouldn't recommend doing it that way unless you're pretty comfortable with it.

So yeah, final cut express would work with the DVX100 in 24P mode since it's still using 29.97 timecode. I have done it and it works pretty good. So yeah, use 24P mode, final cut express will work, life will be good.

the 29.97 shpeal. Normal DV cameras record frames in the 3.2.3.2 pattern: AA AB BC CC CD. But with the DVX100 in 24P mode records in the 2.3.3.2 pattern: AA BB BC CC DD. So it's still 29.97 frames per second, but you have 4 real frames over the course of 5. Now what cinetools does is it takes that middle frame out so that you have no interlaced frames so it looks film-like, and if you take 1 out of every 5, walla, instead of 29.97 you are able to get 23.98 with Cinetools.

Catalina · 08-31-2004, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by directorlca

Alright, hang on tight. Here's the thing with the whole 24P business. When you use the AGDVX100, no matter what setting you're using it is always in 29.97. 24P mode is still 29.97, but the WAY it records the frames are different, so it looks more filmic I guess you'd say. You can still use final cut express, and for basic stuff that would be the way to go, but if you want. . . CineTools (comes with Final Cut 4) can convert material from the DVX100 in 24P mode into real 24fps footage. If you took that route, you would need to also make sure you setup final cut's editing timecode to 24 (well 23.98). I wouldn't recommend doing it that way unless you're pretty comfortable with it.

So yeah, final cut express would work with the DVX100 in 24P mode since it's still using 29.97 timecode. I have done it and it works pretty good. So yeah, use 24P mode, final cut express will work, life will be good.

the 29.97 shpeal. Normal DV cameras record frames in the 3.2.3.2 pattern: AA AB BC CC CD. But with the DVX100 in 24P mode records in the 2.3.3.2 pattern: AA BB BC CC DD. So it's still 29.97 frames per second, but you have 4 real frames over the course of 5. Now what cinetools does is it takes that middle frame out so that you have no interlaced frames so it looks film-like, and if you take 1 out of every 5, walla, instead of 29.97 you are able to get 23.98 with Cinetools.

Wow, that's a lot of good information! Thank you!
So can I edit on FCExpress from my 24p camera (so far so good apparently) and THEN buy CineTools separately to make my video look like a film?
Catalina

directorlca · 09-01-2004, 04:38 PM

Well Cinetools comes with Final Cut 4, not separate.. . and you would have to convert all your footage into 23.98fps BEFORE editing. . . not after. . . for technical complicating reasons.

Let's say you edit your film in Final Cut Express, it will still look good and look just like you shot it. It will be fine. But if you're a techie nut and want to do "pure" 23.98 editing, then go with Final Cut 4 (and Cinetools). But it sounds like you might want to just start out with Final Cut Express, shoot in 24P mode, not worry about any of the conversion stuff, it will still look like 24P, because that's what it is, it just won't be "pure 23.98fps". It will still look film-like. There's just that fine line for picky people like me who would rather go through all that trouble for a slight difference. Hope that helps!