Should I get a composer before or after editing?

[Kerry_Lloyd_Whitehouse]

when i started working with my first director we tried it a bit mad.He'd explain the scene/mood and i'd try to write.Didnt really work that well because a lot of scenes needed some type of musical cues which would of been impossible to do without seeing that scene.So now i wait til he sends me scenes(I live in Ireland he in Texas via youtube) which works out a lot better.
Now am doing an indie film but this time the Director is going to finish the entire project and then send it to me to score.Even though we're in different continents it still works out.I,ve been playing music for a long time now,but am only relativley new to scoring so i'm not actually sure of the professional procedures.Anyways good luck with your project

www.kerrylloydwhitehouse.com

[harmonica44]

Thanks. I'm too busy with the rest of production and going back and redoing any possible sound or reshots to look for a composer at the moment. But I will definitely get one once I can, which should be not too far away, without any more delays. I know exactly what type of tone I want with the score, and know what types of instruments as well.

[ryanrapsys]

If you can, try to get a composer signed on as early as you can. There's always time to hack out a general sound, some basic themes, etc. Obviously, the heavy work can't begin until the edit is locked, but if the general instrumentation/sound/themes are already worked out, then the rest of the process should go smooth once the composer has the lock edit. Of course, there's always that chance that some last edits will take place that will cause some timings to change, which then means more work for the composer to rework the cue to fit again - just use extreme caution when doing edits that change timings after the composer is already working with what he/she thinks is the lock edit - otherwise you can create a delay before getting final cues!

www.ryanrapsys.com

[harmonica44]

For sure. Right now I am too busy finishing shooting and having to recast a part to get a composer now, I will probably have to wait till it's done shooting.

[harmonica44]

Okay now I should have time finally to look for a composer. Do a lot of them not mind working for free or very low pay, in order to add something to their portfolio mostly, for art's sake? How should I advertise?

[Harp]

The director of the animation that I'm working on now created an awsome music cue .doc. It's a perfect template for how composers like to work. I can send it, if you want to take a look.

To answer some earlier questions about when to hire a composer, I have had trouble in the past with producers editing a scene after I've finished the music. If there are perfectly timed musical events, then this kind of late editing can throw the musical cues off.

You'll find hundreds of "composers" looking for their big break by working for free. The problem is, you'll have very little creative or deadline-related leverage with them. Also, if it's their first big project, they may not be as ready for the commitment as they think they are.

I'm affordable, if you're interested.
http://www.harpstringproductions.com

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. I will put some adds up and take a look at your link as well. So it's pretty much okay, asking them to work for free? I did with my actors, but feel more awkward asking composers too. Of course I will be paying them in food, and a nice dinner once I show it to the people involved. He can also have a DVD copy. What should I look for while hiring? Since they are new, they won't have much past projects to show.

[Harp]

There's nothing wrong with asking, for sure. A nice dinner would be a first for me. You must be planning to find someone local. I'd say look for someone who's able to speak in musical terms, and seems to be a well-rounded musician. Also someone well-organized. If they don't have any of their own music for you to listen to, then I'd be skeptical.

[Maurice]

For me, I couldn't think of turning such an important role over to someone else on the indie level with indie money. The question is do you have editing and composing skills, which I believe I do. Today we have access to any music you could need. But you have to spend hours listening for the right combination that tells your story, then blending pieces, slowing it down, speeding it up...etc. This is what a lot of the online composers are doing anyway.

People tell me they can't seperate my score from the story because it has become that integrated. So, until I can afford Speilburg's composers, I would rather do it myself rather than hire it out and, like others have had to do, end up changing it later anyway. But this is just my formula, everyone has to do what they are comfortable with.

[JoshL]

Originally Posted by Maurice

For me, I couldn't think of turning such an important role over to someone else on the indie level with indie money. The question is do you have editing and composing skills, which I believe I do. Today we have access to any music you could need. But you have to spend hours listening for the right combination that tells your story, then blending pieces, slowing it down, speeding it up...etc. This is what a lot of the online composers are doing anyway.

People tell me they can't seperate my score from the story because it has become that integrated. So, until I can afford Speilburg's composers, I would rather do it myself rather than hire it out and, like others have had to do, end up changing it later anyway. But this is just my formula, everyone has to do what they are comfortable with.

I don't know that a LOT of composers online are doing that (you're talking loop/prerecorded music manipulation, right?), though I'll take your word for it. I think anyone aspiring to be a composer is doing just that...writing the notes. And we're trying to learn too, just like the rest of you, to be the next generation of professional composers. Or more specifically, we've chosen the indie-education approach rather than traditional music school, which I'm sure most of you can relate to. I can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm egotistical enough not to want to use material I didn't write, even as much as drum loops. I want drums, then I'm going to play/edit/sequence them myself!

These approaches are not mutually exclusive. I recently worked on Flicker Pictures' recent documentary "Sheryl's Keyosk" - http://sherylskeyosk.info I provided him with sketches for the music he wanted, and he manipulated (mostly speeding up) the clips to fit what he had in mind. When I did the final drafts, rather than playing it at double-tempo (all the non-orchestral instruments are played live, including a little bit of the harp), I played as originally written, letting him manipulate them as he wanted. After, of course, including the revisions that he wanted. The music became a collaborative effort between me as a composer and him as an editor, which suited the quirky documentary.

Not knocking your approach, of course. As you say, everyone has (and should have) different methods.

Back to harm's question, absolutely can't hurt to ask a composer to work for free. Worst they can say is no. As far as what to look for, even an absolute beginner should have stuff to listen to, even if it wasn't composed for a film. Being able to make great music does not necessarily mean that they can make great music for film, but it's a good start. My first paying gig I was asked to demo a couple scenes, but for a non-paying gig that might be a little overkill.

Make sure you post to the classifieds here on IndieTalk; there are a lot of composers floating around looking to build their portfolio!

[Kerry_Lloyd_Whitehouse]

Aye i,m just in the learning process at the moment myself.I'm a nobody wanting to be a somebody so i'm doing work for just my name in the credits.I've just finished my first score for a project and i must say i love it.Am currently doing another one.Thank the universe for the internet because i would never of been able to do this otherwise.If you;re still interested in someone working for free i have music up on www.kerrylloydwhitehouse.com if you are interested.If not i wish you the very best.


here' s a track i did for Eternal Warning
hope i'm allowed to put this link here.if not i apologise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igiuPEAI5_I

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

I find it's best to use looped royalty free music as a mood filler, until all your scenes are locked. That is temp music to be removed later anyway.

Cut your production into scenes and chapters without music.

Assemble everything for DVDs and the Internet with another editing program or the same one with a new file name.

This way, you don't rock the boat with your timmeline if you need to make a scene longer later.

It is also easier for a composer to work with chapters as opposed to the whole production at once.

Some composers want to sign on early. Others can work on the fly. As I said in another thread, editors would contact composers who would bring portable electronic keyboards to plug into AVIDs and sound score features within 2 hours in the editing suit next to my production office.

So, it depends on the composer.

Like editing, the more time a composer spends on a project, the better it gets. So, keep that in mind.

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

My example in the post of adding in speed effects to the beginning of my chain fight scene where I just manually adjusted the looped music would have thrown out a whole sound score because timing on the timeline is critical.

The actual score should be done when all scenes are complete and edited down where it won't throw off the timing.

The example of the teaser / trailer for Terminator 4 shows how critical timing is where music and video must be in sync.

[MileCreations]

I've found it's best to get someone lined up for specific dates, especially when you're on a tight schedule. Then once you've finished the editing, get it to your composer and work from there

[harmonica44]

Sure that's what I want to do. But since I am new to editing I am not sure how long it will take. A lot of it, such as rotoscoping, is trial and error for me.