Home Your Ad Here

Go Back   IndieTalk - Indie Film Forum > The Biz > Hollywood

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-08-2014, 02:49 PM   #2251
sfoster
IndieTalk Moderator
 
sfoster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 5,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniJamesW View Post
Ah well that's true, but I have a genuine love for Ozu's films. I just don't like when people say "I can't believe someone could actually like this film" because it implies that everyone who likes the film is somehow faking it lol. But I'm sure that's not what sfoster meant, people just have different tastes and that's okay
I don't mean to imply that people are faking it or trying to be trendy or anything like that. Sometimes I don't enjoy a film but I can see why other people might like it. For this particular film I truly am baffled how it ends up in some of the top 10 of all time lists. I don't understand what this film is doing that is supposed to be so great, better than on the waterfront for example.

There was absolutely no conflict or dramatic tension that I could see. And it kept bringing up the same point over and over that the children are disinterested.. doesn't make it any more powerful that they are still disinterested two hours later. No accounting for taste, everyone likes something different.
sfoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today   #1A
film guy
Basic Member
 
Posts: 17

 
Old 03-08-2014, 03:42 PM   #2252
MiniJamesW
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New York City
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
I don't mean to imply that people are faking it or trying to be trendy or anything like that. Sometimes I don't enjoy a film but I can see why other people might like it. For this particular film I truly am baffled how it ends up in some of the top 10 of all time lists. I don't understand what this film is doing that is supposed to be so great, better than on the waterfront for example.

There was absolutely no conflict or dramatic tension that I could see. And it kept bringing up the same point over and over that the children are disinterested.. doesn't make it any more powerful that they are still disinterested two hours later. No accounting for taste, everyone likes something different.
Yeah I kind of figured you didn't mean people were faking it. I actually also don't like it when people are dishonest about their tastes and accept masterpieces for no reason other than to agree with critics. I'm really into Japanese cinema and it's history, and into many other national cinemas. So when someone states that they love foreign cinema because they've seen one Kurosawa film or a Godard film, and they don't even REALLY like that film, that kind of pisses me off. I think a case can be made against many canonized directors and films, however, I think before we evaluate a film we must first properly understand it. I used to really dislike Godard until I understood him, and now I can see why he's a genius. If I did learn to understand him and still hated him, well then I would make a case against him.

Well I think with regards to appreciating Tokyo Story (and most of Ozu's works) it is a matter of what you expect in cinema. Ozu's cinema is much different than most cinema in Japan let alone the cinema of the U.S. You can see through his use of narrative ellipsis that he intentionally chooses not to show scenes that Hollywood would exploit, his stylistic minimalism is also always present, and I'm not sure if you noticed the precision of his compositions. His stories are based almost entirely on character, if you look at many of his works, they share a similar plot descriptions but it is the subtle differences in character that change the entire film. I could write a lot about why I love Ozu, but others have done it before and better than I ever could. Critics such as Donald Richie, Tadao Sato, Paul Schrader, and David Bordwell have done an amazing job at covering Ozu's thematic, stylistic, and formal concerns.

The funny thing is that we analyze his films so much, when he was just your ordinary Japanese studio director who was so obsessed with his art that it was elevated from Japanese melodrama that appealed to Japanese women during the postwar era, into one of the greatest filmographies (in the eyes of many cinephiles and critics) of all-time.

Another great filmmaker of the shomin-geki genre (the realistic drama that Ozu worked in for the most part) is Mikio Naruse. I have a feeling that you'd like Naruse more than Ozu. Where Ozu is a lake, Naruse is a river. His films are stronger in their emotional content, yet I feel they lack the balance that Ozu has. They are both great filmmakers, but Ozu appeals to me more. Ozu is also more consistent, but that has more to do with the fact that he had full creative control unlike Naruse, they really are both equally talented (I think Ozu, Naruse, Kurosawa, and Mizoguchi are all equally talented masters but they just appeal to different people).

With Ozu, I just love that he has so many characters that are similar to those that I find in life. I like his stories because they are simple, yet profound. Near the end of Tokyo Story, the youngest sister asks Noriko, "Isn't life disappointing?" to which Noriko replies "Yes, it is." In light of the film's events (or rather the way the events are presented) these words ring very true and are very deep. I love Ozu's compositions as well, he really has a sense of where to place objects in his compositions. I also love his use of pillow shots, he's one of the few narrative filmmakers that can use pure cinematography to strengthen his vision even when it is not used to drive the narrative. I have to get in the mood to watch Ozu though, because I know I can't watch many films before watching one of his masterpieces and I can't watch many films after it, because I really just want to inhabit his world and not ever leave it.

I wonder, do you like Robert Bresson? His style of cinema is very similar to Ozu in many ways, I'd say that he's a European equivalent to Ozu, although he's much more extreme in his style (he literally developed non-acting for his films, he preferred to call his actors, models).

For me, Yasujiro Ozu is the greatest filmmaker of all-time, but I can see why others may dislike him. He's an extreme formalist who tries to have a very balanced vision, and he never tries to 'sell' you a story I guess, he just tells you the truth as he sees it. And the truth does not always have plot twists or dramatic tension, sometimes it just is. Ozu is more of an observer than a storyteller, he's more in line with making cinema that is poetry. Yes, he has stories, and I feel they are great stories, but they are different than most of the stories told through narrative cinema.

Tokyo Story is more about just the fact that the children are disinterested. Why are they disinterested? You should look at how the culture and the struggles of postwar Japan affects the entire family. A big part of the film (which is told more subtly) is the fact that Japan as a growing nation is changing the way families are in Japan. There is also a lot more to the story but I'd have to explain even more at length lol.

A lot of great Japanese filmmakers and critics share your opinion that this is a horrible film for similar reasons (and more political ones as well), but I think it's mostly because the subtle expression didn't appeal to them. I think you'd enjoy the Japanese New Wave much more, those guys hated Ozu and his like with a passion and made awesome films as well, though they were edgier, more overtly experimental, subversive, and less subtle. Many Ozu fans do not feel that this is his best work, or even necessarily his most accessible. It's his most popular simply because it was the first one to get exposure in Europe and the United States. I'm not sure whether I like Tokyo Story or Late Spring more, but they are both my favorite films of all-time, I still have a lot more to go with Ozu's films though!

Sorry for rambling so much lol, I tend to do that!

Although you really disliked the film, I'm glad you gave it a shot! It's always good to try to expand one's tastes even if it fails and you end up hating a film lol.

You might like Leo McCarey's Make Way For Tomorrow, Tokyo Story is actually based on that film. I haven't seen it yet, but since it's a classic Hollywood film it may suit your tastes more.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I love On The Waterfront and I feel it's a perfect masterpiece as well. I don't know why Elia Kazan is so underrated by both mainstream and more esoteric critics, he was a genius at crafting scenes and bringing characters to life. Some people hate On The Waterfront for what it stands for during the HUAC trials, which I think is a very stupid reason to hate a film lol. On The Waterfront and Tokyo Story are two completely different types of films though, they both aim for different things, so comparing them doesn't help much. I'm not very much into definitive rankings of films with critics and whatnot, I like what I like and I dislike what I dislike. I think there are tons of great films that are equal in quality but appeal to different people. Fortunately both Elia Kazan and Yasujiro Ozu appeal to me. But I think there must be great films out there that I dislike.

Last edited by MiniJamesW; 03-08-2014 at 03:47 PM.
MiniJamesW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 06:08 PM   #2253
sfoster
IndieTalk Moderator
 
sfoster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 5,113
read all that but it's a lot to reply to, sorry if I missed some of it haha.

For bresson, is this his imdb?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000975/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
Although if he is similar to ozu i probably won't like him lol

I have late spring but not quite ready to watch that one yet
I've seen a lot of kurosawa and i like most of his films. The only one i disliked so far was stray dog.

I compared on the water front because it was also slow and boring. at least for the first half. . i really struggled to get through it, and face palmed a couple times at the stupidity of him going after the one girl that he shouldn't be pursuing. a real testament to the film that I ended up giving it 5 stars anyway, that second half was amazing.

Netflix only has one Mikio Naruse dvd available for shipping
"When a woman ascends the stairs"
sfoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 07:31 PM   #2254
rayw
Basic Member
 
rayw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: About a thousand years from now
Posts: 6,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniJamesW View Post
Thanks for the recommendation of bad films lol, I wonder if these are funner to watch then true garbage like The Room or Manos: The Hands Of Fate, I haven't seen those films but I've seen reviews of them and they were hilariously bad.
This one? The Room (there are three) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Room_(film)
Entertainment Weekly has called The Room "the Citizen Kane of bad movies" and a number of notable publications have labeled it as one of the worst films ever made. Originally shown only in a limited number of California theaters, the film quickly developed a cult following as fans found humour in the film's bizarre storytelling and various technical and narrative flaws. Although Wiseau has retroactively characterized the film as a black comedy, audiences have generally viewed it as a poorly made drama, a viewpoint supported by some of the film's cast. Within a decade of its premiere, the film was selling out showings around the United States and had inspired a video game, book, and traveling stage show.


I'll have to hunt for that one, too.
Good way to blow a paltry $6mil it looks like

For big budget fail try 'Dream House.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_House_(film)
Imagine what other director/producers have done with $50mil in that caliber of talent and financial resources.
It's sad.
So lame.

Yeah, I believe there's a benefit to watching bad or lame cinema, especially current rather than just historically bad.
I think you're very well versed in largely quality films because you're really good at doing your pre-homework.
Looks like you ferret out the bulk of the stinkers before wasting time on them. And you're probably a lot happier for it! Ha!

For myself I also like to pay attention to bang-for-the buck.

A $10mil lame movie is a whole lot better than a $50mil lame movie, and even then I still try to objectively sort out in context with the genre's competitors and it's chronology/industry standards for it's general release time.

Watch the original $375,000 1981 'The Evil Dead' and then the $17mil 2013 remake.
It's just crazy.
And then you watch the $1mil 'The Devil Inside' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Inside_(film) and wonder "Just how important is marketing?" and then film as a business and not just donuts or toast.

Last edited by rayw; 03-08-2014 at 07:33 PM.
rayw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 07:44 PM   #2255
ChimpPhobiaFilms
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 4,114
Oh hi Ray.


ChimpPhobiaFilms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 08:07 PM   #2256
rayw
Basic Member
 
rayw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: About a thousand years from now
Posts: 6,621
Oh, hi, Dom.

Good Lord.
That looks painful to sit through.
How much they spend on that seen gem?
$6mil.
Heavens.
rayw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 08:21 PM   #2257
ChimpPhobiaFilms
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 4,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayw View Post
Oh, hi, Dom.

Good Lord.
That looks painful to sit through.
How much they spend on that seen gem?
$6mil.
Heavens.
Oh, it's entertaining. Trust me, a must watch.

If you don't enjoy it, you might be interesting in buying 1 Wiseau-themed underwear for $7. As the man himself says "Thanks! Sale! Great Value!"
ChimpPhobiaFilms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 09:18 PM   #2258
MiniJamesW
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New York City
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
read all that but it's a lot to reply to, sorry if I missed some of it haha.

For bresson, is this his imdb?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000975/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
Although if he is similar to ozu i probably won't like him lol

I have late spring but not quite ready to watch that one yet
I've seen a lot of kurosawa and i like most of his films. The only one i disliked so far was stray dog.

I compared on the water front because it was also slow and boring. at least for the first half. . i really struggled to get through it, and face palmed a couple times at the stupidity of him going after the one girl that he shouldn't be pursuing. a real testament to the film that I ended up giving it 5 stars anyway, that second half was amazing.

Netflix only has one Mikio Naruse dvd available for shipping
"When a woman ascends the stairs"
Haha that's all right, I wrote quite a bit!

Bresson is often compared as being the European equivalent of the type of cinema that Ozu brings. He was very concerned with bringing a pure cinema that did not have much in common with theater or literature so he eliminated acting and conventional narrative. I would say that he is in some ways similar to Ozu, but he had very different concerns. His cinema is often considered to be spiritual in the Catholic tradition just as Ozu's cinema is considered to be spiritual in the Zen tradition (which is inaccurate, his films have a Buddhist perspective but not a Zen one).

Haha yeah, it's all right if you find Ozu boring, not every filmmaker appeals to everybody. Late Spring was my introduction to him and I really loved it, but I can't say it's much different in its style. Ozu's one of those guys that if you like one of his films, you'll probably like all of them, and if you hate one of them you'll probably hate all of them (at least from his mature period). His silent films are much different, they're more in line with Hollywood filmmaking and he worked in several genres such as the gangster film, the silent comedy, and dramas.

Yeah, Kurosawa is a much different director to Ozu. I think the closest film he had to Ozu was Ikiru. What I love about these masters from Japan is that they all appreciated one another but had distinctive styles. A lesser known master of Japanese film is Sadao Yamanaka who was good friends with Ozu, the sad thing is that most of his films are lost and only three survive. That's the only reason I don't list him with the four big names in Japanese cinema.

Haha, I guess I never felt On The Waterfront to be too slow, and Marlon Brando had a brilliant performance. Leonard Bernstein had a really great score to that film as well. Maybe On The Waterfront is slow by Hollywood standards or Kazan's standards, but I think Ozu is much slower (though for me slow does not equal boring or bad).

Yeah, Mikio Naruse is not as well known in the United States as the other big directors from Japan. In Japan he is easily the biggest director (remember Kurosawa was not a hit in Japan, and these other guys appealed to a narrower target audience). What I love about him is that he was so prolific. When A Woman Ascends The Stairs is one of his major works, you can find his other films on Hulu Plus. I'm trying to go through his filmography in order so I haven't seen the most important ones, but Floating Clouds seems to be his masterpiece.
MiniJamesW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 09:30 PM   #2259
MiniJamesW
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New York City
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayw View Post
This one? The Room (there are three) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Room_(film)
Entertainment Weekly has called The Room "the Citizen Kane of bad movies" and a number of notable publications have labeled it as one of the worst films ever made. Originally shown only in a limited number of California theaters, the film quickly developed a cult following as fans found humour in the film's bizarre storytelling and various technical and narrative flaws. Although Wiseau has retroactively characterized the film as a black comedy, audiences have generally viewed it as a poorly made drama, a viewpoint supported by some of the film's cast. Within a decade of its premiere, the film was selling out showings around the United States and had inspired a video game, book, and traveling stage show.


I'll have to hunt for that one, too.
Good way to blow a paltry $6mil it looks like
Haha that's the one! I haven't seen it yet but I can't wait to watch it!

Quote:
For big budget fail try 'Dream House.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_House_(film)
Imagine what other director/producers have done with $50mil in that caliber of talent and financial resources.
It's sad.
So lame.
That's sad! I get pissed when people are able to get so much money to make garbage while talented filmmakers in Africa and the Middle East have to work with less than $1 million budgets!

Quote:
Yeah, I believe there's a benefit to watching bad or lame cinema, especially current rather than just historically bad.
I think you're very well versed in largely quality films because you're really good at doing your pre-homework.
Looks like you ferret out the bulk of the stinkers before wasting time on them. And you're probably a lot happier for it! Ha!
Haha yeah, I want to watch more bad films but I feel I can take them more slowly since I'm young. I can watch maybe five or six really bad films on purpose a year or so lol.

Yeah, I research a ton before watching films because I don't have much time or money for my hobby! Even when I narrow down as many good films as I want to see it's hard for me to choose which one to watch next, so I try to mix it up according to what year the film is made, what genre, what country it's made, if it's in black and white or color, if it's long or short, lol it's complex process! I spend so much time choosing that I think my knowledge of films exceeds the amount of films that I have seen, I find that to be sad. But I'm only 17 so I have several years ahead of me to watch more films!

Quote:
For myself I also like to pay attention to bang-for-the buck.

A $10mil lame movie is a whole lot better than a $50mil lame movie, and even then I still try to objectively sort out in context with the genre's competitors and it's chronology/industry standards for it's general release time.

Watch the original $375,000 1981 'The Evil Dead' and then the $17mil 2013 remake.
It's just crazy.
And then you watch the $1mil 'The Devil Inside' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Inside_(film) and wonder "Just how important is marketing?" and then film as a business and not just donuts or toast.
That's true, I feel the same way. I somewhat respect bad low-budget movies, but I find those horrible big-budget films to be really atrocious. But I don't know why, I enjoy bad films more than mediocre ones, they're at least unintentionally entertaining!

Yeah I really want to see The Evil Dead (the original), I actually heard good things about it from those who are into the horror genre. I hate how Hollywood loves to remake just about every single horror film in existence lol.

Marketing does wonders! I believe that the reason why people watch what they watch, listen to what they listen to, or eat what they eat has at least 95% to do with the marketing unless they are real connoisseurs about the products they are enjoying.
MiniJamesW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014, 10:49 PM   #2260
DizzyHead
Basic Member
 
DizzyHead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1
American Hustle ...8/10...great movie...neatly done....Bale ah what can I say about this guy...he is a gem he is the Daniel day lewis of this era...just hated one thing and that is you take a masterpiece like Robert De Niro and he is just wasted ...you cannot do this to such a great talent.
DizzyHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 10:19 AM   #2261
MiniJamesW
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New York City
Posts: 758
A Story Of Floating Weeds directed by Yasujiro Ozu - 10/10
Wow, this film reveals Ozu as a master of cinema even before the introduction of sound! I love how this film already has his mature style and tells a wonderful story as well. There is just such a large cast of great characters, I think there's like five great major characters and the rest of the cast is great as well. I was surprised by how emotionally involved I got in this movie since the version I saw had no soundtrack at all! This was just pure cinema, moving images with intertitles and it moved me. This is such a sad film though, it may suggest some hope in the end but even that hope is not certain and it's not a happy ending. I think this film is a masterpiece! I look forward to watching more silent films especially those from Japan.
MiniJamesW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 10:38 AM   #2262
Flicker Pictures
Basic - Premiere Expired
 
Flicker Pictures's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,800
Could somebody please tell me how/why KILLING THEM SOFTLY got made????

I cannot grasp how this screenplay ended up getting the green light and stamp of approval. Kept waiting for the third act to redeem the time invested in watching... then the credits rolled... FADE OUT to utter flabbergastdom.

Yes, I am aware that Pitt and his Plan B were involved, so there's that, but come on. WEAK STORY with NO twists, turns, or reversals to make the glacially slow pace interesting.

Think they needed a Plan C, D and E... and maybe an X, Y, Z.

Pitt! Gandolfini! Liotta! Let the magic begin! Zzzzzzz.... pppfftttt...

On a happier note, I'm LOVING "Bates Motel"
Flicker Pictures is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 04:43 PM   #2263
MiniJamesW
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New York City
Posts: 758
On Your Mark directed by Hayao Miyazaki - 9/10
This is the first time I rate/review a music video in the same way I'd review a short film. I love music videos, and I think that many times they are better at experimenting than formal experimental films but I refuse to review them as cinema because the medium has different aims. In this case though, Miyazaki intentionally misinterpreted the song's lyrics and created his own short film with the song basically as background music.

I love how this film tells a simple non-linear story, it reminded me of starting over in video games or the structure used in the film Run Lola Run. I love how the film's story unfolds, it's very much like the filmmaker knows a secret and he slowly reveals it to us. The animation is very awesome, and I quite like the song. The way the film is constructed actually reminds me of some of D.W. Griffith's early films, where the visuals and editing have to fit the overall formal structure just as strictly as the narrative has to fit a structure. Any fan of Studio Ghibli should check this music video out. In some ways I wish that this were a longer short film, maybe one from 45 to 60 minutes to tell a whole story, but as it is it's a pretty awesome music video/short film.
MiniJamesW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 05:57 PM   #2264
rayw
Basic Member
 
rayw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: About a thousand years from now
Posts: 6,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flicker Pictures View Post
Could somebody please tell me how/why KILLING THEM SOFTLY got made????
I found only mild merit in this movie but found it so beautiful to look at I checked to see what else the director had shot.

'The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford' is only a little more interesting but looks even more gorgeous.
Definitely one to use as reference material for shot composition.
rayw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2014, 08:09 PM   #2265
MiniJamesW
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New York City
Posts: 758
The Killer directed by John Woo - 10/10
Another action melodrama masterpiece by John Woo! There are so many things I love about John Woo's Hong Kong films, to me they are like modern day parables using the criminal world to express themes of loyalty, trust, honor, and even a bit of spirituality. The Killer is my favorite of his films so far! Like Woo's other masterpieces, I love how it gives me characters I care about and not just random brutal killing machines. There's a love story here, there's a friendship between a cop and an assassin, and a friendship between two assassins. I love how the film shows the similarity between justice in the world of cops and justice in the world of criminals, I really feel as though there are values within every kind of world or culture, and this film expresses this perfectly. At first, I wished that Chow Yun Fat had more humorous scenes in this film like he did in A Better Tomorrow but I changed my mind by the end, this film has a much different tone from that film and I'm glad Woo made both of them. This film is awesome for many more reasons than the ones that I've mentioned, and it reminded me once again why I believe that no one looks cooler with a gun than Chow Yun Fat. Anyone into the action genre should check out John Woo's Hong Kong films, they have great action and emotional depth. I've seen all of his classic heroic bloodshed Hong Kong films except Hard Boiled and Just Heroes (not sure if that one counts though), but I will watch them as soon as possible!

After seeing both A Story Of Floating Weeds and The Killer in one day, I just feel like crying so much lol, both of them are very heartbreaking!
MiniJamesW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


©IndieTalk