Good, budget outboard sound recording unit - IndieTalk

mr_goodbomb · 11-05-2009, 09:43 PM

I have always run the mic directly to the camera. Usually, I use a Canon XL-2 or an HDDV Canon. I'm told running to an exterior sound recorder with the same mic on the same tripod will reduce noise and generally just sound better.

So, I'm looking for options on recorders. Would the Zoom H2 be good enough for this purpose? What format do I want to record to?

**Alcove Audio** · 11-05-2009, 10:29 PM

Products like the Zoom H2, H4 and H4n are hotly debated; some think that they're a great option, others are not quite so sure. The general consensus is that the mic preamps of these Zoom products are rather noisy, so a quality mixer like the Sound Devices MixPre ($650) or even the MP-1 ($300) or MM-1 ($350) should be used and the output of the mixer sent to the line inputs of the Zoom recorder being used. Another strike against the Zoom products is that they really eat batteries; you could easily go through half a dozen batteries or more every day you shoot. Even at $0.40 each that's $2.40 a day, $24.00 for ten days of shooting, $240.00 over 100 days of shooting. Would you rather spend over $200 on batteries or gear? A third point against them is that they are rather flimsy; drop it and it makes a nice paperweight.

Another low budget option could be the juicedLink CX231 or the Beachtek DXA-6A. Both supply phantom power, have two channels, mount underneath the camera, are relatively economical with batteries (9V), have passable preamps and are made specifically for use with cameras that have 1/8" mini-pin audio inputs. The problem with them is that they are a one-trick-pony; if you upgrade to a prosumer camera that has XLR mic and RCA or 1/4" line inputs the unit is no longer useful.

The ultimate point is to bypass low quality mic preamps which add hiss and possibly other artifacts to the audio. If you want to get into the $600 to $1,000 range your options - and the quality - increases markedly. The Fostex FR-2 LE, Marantz PMD661, Nagra ARES-ML, Tascam HD-P2 and Edirol/Roland R-44 are all very viable options. All have relatively quiet preamps, are well built and can be used as building blocks for a larger, more flexible system; you could later on add a mixer like the MixPre or the 302.

By the way, having the mike on a stand or on the camera and using a separate recording device will not produce a significant improvement in the sound, but your sound will markedly improve if you boom properly.

mr_goodbomb · 11-05-2009, 10:44 PM

I definitely can't spend as much as is being brought up. $100-250 is about my budget here. My school has NEVER brought up external sound recorders, there's never even been a question as to the quality of in-camera sound. Guess that says a lot for what they're teaching us.

I use a lot of different cameras, as I general borrow and rent, so something that mounts underneath the camera is useless to me unless it is versatile.

The H2s can't be hooked up to a wall wart?

Couldn't a vocal pre-amp or otherwise live sound/recording pre-amp be used instead?

**Alcove Audio** · 11-06-2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_goodbomb

I definitely can't spend as much as is being brought up. $100-250 is about my budget here.

Then you are probably better off using the mic directly into the camera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_goodbomb

Couldn't a vocal pre-amp or otherwise live sound/recording pre-amp be used instead?

You could, but there would probably not be any noticeable improvement in sound quality if you buy a cheap one. Besides, they are mostly aimed at music applications so would probably color the sound. In music - which I did for many years - you're looking for the coloration and tend to choose your gear accordingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_goodbomb

My school has NEVER brought up external sound recorders, there's never even been a question as to the quality of in-camera sound. Guess that says a lot for what they're teaching us.

Yup, production sound and audio post seems to be a very large blind spot at most film schools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_goodbomb

I use a lot of different cameras, as I general borrow and rent, so something that mounts underneath the camera is useless to me unless it is versatile.

You could rent the sound gear as well, or retain a competent production sound mixer/boom-op; you'll get better quality gear that way. Even a fellow student who's into sound is an option. That's kind of how I got started; on a lark I showed up at an audition to be an extra in a short film and ended up being co-opted into being the production sound mixer due to my years as a performer and studio droid. I don't do very much production sound anymore, I'm almost exclusively audio post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_goodbomb

The H2s can't be hooked up to a wall wart?

Yes it can, but as I pointed out the mic pres are probably no better than what is in the camera.

mr_goodbomb · 11-06-2009, 02:32 AM

Damn, then I guess the in-camera stuff is what I'm stuck with. Thanks.

**Dave Pastecchi** · 11-06-2009, 08:28 AM

i always get to these posts late, always working.

but i will agree with everything Audio has said here. that mic preamps in these low cost products just do not cut it. but then that is why they are so cheap. and your options are limited with the budget you have.

so continuing with going to In-Camera is what you should do till you have a better budget to work with or can find someone to do sound for you that has better gear or can rent something if you have a project worth spending to money on.

keep up the good work Alcove. Its good to have you around as i do not have the time when working to get to many of these posts on time before someone goes out and waste good money.

**Alcove Audio** · 11-06-2009, 11:25 AM

Tell you what Dave, I'll trade places with you - I'll work and you can answer posts!

Blade_Jones · 11-06-2009, 06:22 PM

Some cameras "allow" a mic to be connected directly. Others like the Panasonic Varicam CANNOT be used with the mic connected directly. I once worked with a quack of a producer/director and a DP who plugged the mic in directly to a Varicam and our sound was distorting all over the place. They thought the camera was defective and finally compensated by moving the mic way far away from the talent (a no no). They were idiots. You need an outboard mixer, limiter, etc and you need to get the mics as close to the talent as possible so as to get a nice beefy sound and signal to noise ratio.

mr_goodbomb · 11-06-2009, 06:59 PM

I've never heard any of this stuff.

I've never had any "issues" with connecting the mic directly to the camera (Canon XL2, Sony 1080i), but have gotten more room noise than I'd prefer, and just lackluster sound, which is why I started asking around.

**Alcove Audio** · 11-06-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_goodbomb

...but have gotten more room noise than I'd prefer...

That is more an issue with mic technique and mic selection.

Shotgun mic - outdoors
Cardioid condenser mic (preferably a hypercardioid) - indoors

You may want to check out my blogs on production sound here on IndieTalk.

There is also the audio post process - what I do for a living - which has a significant impact on how your project will be perceived. Audio post cannot overcome poor production sound, but a well executed sound design can enormously enhance the final product.