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Old 07-19-2018, 03:26 AM   #31
IronFilm
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Producers take on usually all the main financial risks, I don't mind if they end up making a lot more sometimes, as they also sometimes stand to lose everything!
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:38 AM   #32
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I was just razzing you a bit last night sfoster you seemed so passionate about it.

PS. Companies where people invent, some have stock options. If somebody were to invent something at Google I'd imagine they are paid handsomely and stock options equates to ownership per your example.

But back to film or online series... royalties (residuals). Okay, if you were Jennifer Aniston wouldn't you be pissed you weren't getting checks in the mail for how much Friends is still played on TV?

Sure that's the agent's negotiating skills but this started off with the word "deserve." I guess it's a tricky word.
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:07 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by indietalk View Post
I was just razzing you a bit last night sfoster you seemed so passionate about it.

PS. Companies where people invent, some have stock options. If somebody were to invent something at Google I'd imagine they are paid handsomely and stock options equates to ownership per your example.

But back to film or online series... royalties (residuals). Okay, if you were Jennifer Aniston wouldn't you be pissed you weren't getting checks in the mail for how much Friends is still played on TV?

Sure that's the agent's negotiating skills but this started off with the word "deserve." I guess it's a tricky word.
Hell yeah i'd be pissed at myself if I were jennifer. and pissed at my agent.
And probably pissed at the producer too. She was on that show for too many seasons not to get residuals.

First thing I said in this thread was that you negotiate to pay them a lot more after the first season
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:10 PM   #34
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PS. Companies where people invent, some have stock options. If somebody were to invent something at Google I'd imagine they are paid handsomely and stock options equates to ownership per your example.

Lots and lots and lots of people working at Google don't have stock options.

And even if you do, let's say you have 1% of Google.

That would be worth a LOT, but if you personally invented something which earns Google an extra TEN MILLION DOLLARS that year, what difference would that make to your stock? A mere blip in the increase of its price, it might even not be measurable it is so small.

This is just how it is.

There is not always a tight direct relationship between value created and money earned from it personally, as there are many many many other complex variables involved.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:25 PM   #35
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Exactly
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:48 AM   #36
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Exactly
i'm not sure what this is referring to.. but Jennifer devoted many years of her life to making that show.
Such a huge time commitment is invaluable.
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Old 07-20-2018, 10:06 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
Lets try a story

Dreamer wants to make a film..
Let's try a different outcome of your story. Same story; dreamer risks
everything just as you say, but the outcome changes.

The series does well. Not life altering well, but makes a healthy profit.
Pays back everything – all expenses, initial investment, reasonable
overhead – and nets, say, $100,000 in pure profit for this dreamer.

I feel the lead actors deserve a small piece of that. Sure, they took
money up front rather than the risk, yes, they didn't give a shit about
the dream – to them cash is king. Yes, they were complete strangers
when they got the parts. I still think these strangers deserve the cheese
the dreamer risked everything for. Not all of it, but a nice piece.

Maybe for you, sfoster, it's a number? Rather than mix big budget
examples with risk-everything ultra low budget examples I wonder what
that number (profit) might be for you.

If this movie you risked everything on made a profit of $500,000 would
you still not share any of the profits with the strangers you hired? Those
people you already paid hundreds of dollars a day.

What if you really hit the big time? Say, a pure profit of $5,000,000? Do
you believe the actors deserve none of that?
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Old 07-20-2018, 10:58 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by directorik View Post
Let's try a different outcome of your story. Same story; dreamer risks
everything just as you say, but the outcome changes.

The series does well. Not life altering well, but makes a healthy profit.
Pays back everything – all expenses, initial investment, reasonable
overhead – and nets, say, $100,000 in pure profit for this dreamer.

I feel the lead actors deserve a small piece of that. Sure, they took
money up front rather than the risk, yes, they didn't give a shit about
the dream – to them cash is king. Yes, they were complete strangers
when they got the parts. I still think these strangers deserve the cheese
the dreamer risked everything for. Not all of it, but a nice piece.

Maybe for you, sfoster, it's a number? Rather than mix big budget
examples with risk-everything ultra low budget examples I wonder what
that number (profit) might be for you.

If this movie you risked everything on made a profit of $500,000 would
you still not share any of the profits with the strangers you hired? Those
people you already paid hundreds of dollars a day.

What if you really hit the big time? Say, a pure profit of $5,000,000? Do
you believe the actors deserve none of that?
We've got a forum full of M.C. hammers here, they're going to strike it rich with a hit and end up broke with nothing because they gave all their money away

Alright I'll address all three numbers

$100,000 is not very much money sadly and if you risked everything for it then you should hold on to it.
$500,000 now we're talking. you could buy a house with that much money. and you should.. there probably won't be any left over.
$5,000,000 I would give them a large cash bonus
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:07 AM   #39
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lets talk real life

i felt bad for the actors in the original blair witch.
nobody expected that kind of return and they worked for such a little amount it was unfair.
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Old 07-20-2018, 10:11 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
lets talk real life

i felt bad for the actors in the original blair witch.
nobody expected that kind of return and they worked for such a little amount it was unfair.
I agree.

That's one of the reasons I believe actors deserve a piece of the profits.

I suspected with you it was about the number. You believe it's right to
share some of the “cheese”. It seems where we differ is how much profit.
I would start offering a piece at a lower number than you. If I risked
everything and turned a profit of $100,000 I would set aside 25% to divvy
up. I'd take the $75,000 and offer $25,000 to actors (and crew).

You weren't misunderstood. You didn't need to put more in all caps to be
understood. We have different opinions. I, too, look at this from the angle
of a businessman - you believe it's good business to share the profits with
those who helped make the product a success and so do I. We only differ
about the number.

Crazy, isn't it?

Last edited by directorik; 07-20-2018 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:00 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by directorik View Post
I agree.

That's one of the reasons I believe actors deserve a piece of the profits.

I suspected with you it was about the number. You believe it's right to
share some of the “cheese”. It seems where we differ is how much profit.
I would start offering a piece at a lower number than you. If I risked
everything and turned a profit of $100,000 I would set aside 25% to divvy
up. I'd take the $75,000 and offer $25,000 to actors (and crew).

You weren't misunderstood. You didn't need to put more in all caps to be
understood. We have different opinions. I, too, look at this from the angle
of a businessman - you believe it's good business to share the profits with
those who helped make the product a success and so do I. We only differ
about the number.

Crazy, isn't it?
I didn't re-read the first couple pages but I don't think any of my replies to you utilized caps.
Mostly I would worry about not getting investment for the next film.. that's why I'd rather hire the actors for the next round and pay them more than just give it away. Seems to make more business sense.

Either way the actors get the money.
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:22 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by sfoster: Mostly I would worry about not getting investment for the next film
This is the part that I simply don't understand. If your first project made a profit, you're going to get investment for the next film. Really.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:27 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
I didn't re-read the first couple pages but I don't think any of my replies to you utilized caps.
I was reverencing this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
This is a really weird question, I don't know why I'm so misunderstood.
I even put it in all caps and you still don't understand where I'm coming from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfoster View Post
Mostly I would worry about not getting investment for the next film.. that's why I'd rather hire the actors for the next round and pay them more than just give it away. Seems to make more business sense.
I understand.

I don't see it as giving it away. I see it as an important business
expense. I agree with mlesemann, the dreamer who sacrifices
everything for years (the one from your example) who makes a
low budget film that makes a $500,000 profit will typically not
have to struggle for another several years to get financing for
their next one. It's interesting to me that in your response to
my question you didn't mention using any of that $500,000 profit
to make another movie. Your only example was buying a house.

Anyway, I do understand where you're coming from. I just hold
a different opinion.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:17 AM   #44
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We've got a forum full of M.C. hammers here, they're going to strike it rich with a hit and end up broke with nothing because they gave all their money away
Didn't you just buy a house with all of it like MC???
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:07 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by mlesemann View Post
This is the part that I simply don't understand. If your first project made a profit, you're going to get investment for the next film. Really.
My research has told me otherwise... Francis Ford Coppola has had problems finding funding for his movies and that dude is famous! If I'm remember the documentary film "hearts of darkness" correctly.

That's where I'm coming from.
But you guys know better than me about that stuff I haven't even made a feature yet.

And directorik you're right about the house comment
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