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Old 02-10-2018, 01:28 AM   #46
Alcove Audio
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Originally Posted by Sweetie View Post
That's what commonly happens with cheap audio gear.

The expensive (good) stuff not only works best, it's built like a tank.
To sum up on this line of thinking…


As I mentioned in a previous post my microphone collection has a very nice resale value. My 40 year old Shure SM-58, which cost me about $75 back then, sells new for around $100 these days; I could easily get $50 for my old baby. So it has cost me less than $2 a year and I can get back 2/3 of the original purchase price. There's nothing in the way of moving parts to wear out and no extreme tech advances to invalidate older mics. The half-life of a mixer is about 10 to 20 years or so (they slowly get quieter), a recording device in the new digital age about 2 to 3 years (as bit/sample rates, speed, track counts, storage and ergonomics improve).

What's funny - or weird or however you want to put it - is that "accessories" like cases, boom-poles, mic stands (audio) and C-stands, tripods, lighting and other basics (visuals) have not changed much over the years; they make good investments as you will have their use for many years or you can get back a decent percentage of your money on resale as long as you invest in decent quality.

So as an example, the Rode NTG-1 shotgun mic sells new for around $250. They are selling used for $150 to $185. Those who lose interest or have no further need can get a reasonable amount of their purchase back. Those who continue their audio journey keep the "cheap" mic as a back-up for when they buy that $700 to $1,200 mic.

BTW, I'm a big fan of renting or borrowing if you insist on DIY or cannot find someone to handle audio for you. As a mentor of mine told me, "If you don't use it every day, you don't need it."


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Originally Posted by Sweetie View Post
Try the "Sweetie" method. Continue to network and ask a lot of people until you get what you need. "This is what we're doing. Is this something you're interested in doing with us?" If not, move on to the next person. If the answer is no, don't waste another second on them. Life's too short to waste time on people who aren't along for the ride. Prepare for lots of rejections. It's part of the process. It does sound like you need to volunteer and get involved with a lot of other people's productions and build up your network. If that's the case, be what everyone needs and you'll be the darling boy everyone needs. You can pick and choose which projects will help you achieve your goals best.

My personal position is that directors should direct, not be running sound, working the camera, setting up lights, whatever. The directors job is to inspire a group of other creative people to share their vision (literally and figuratively).

However, why do your learning on your own dime/time? Work on every project you can fit into your schedule. That's where you can do a lot of your learning and it won't cost you a Euro. You'll help place lighting, run cables, assist with sound, and dozens of other jobs on a small set. Another important benefit is that you start building a network of people with whom you may want to work when you're ready to do your own projects. And many of them may already have or have access to the equipment that you need.
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Old 02-10-2018, 08:46 AM   #47
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Thanks for all the replies. If I don't agree with you, don't take it personally. I just don't get what you're trying to say or I've found the opposite to be true from my personal experience.

Directorik
Quote:
Will you be buying a beginner makeup kit so you can know the very
basics of corrective make up?
Will you be buying a grip and lighting package so you can know how
it all works?
Will you be taking acting classes?

I have always felt that as the director I can effectively guide people
towards creating what I need by directing them. Not by knowing how
it all works.

Even after I spent 12 years in makeup effects and really knew how it all
works I never used my knowledge and experience on set when I directing
the makeup team. I know very little about audio and I know nothing at all
about costuming but I learned to guide the people who do.
You ''learned to guide the people''. So you learned on set. Or from books. Or from your network who taught you. So do you really have ''no knowledge''? Look up ''T-shaped skill set''. I believe everyone should have this. I believe you have it too.

Do you really believe that a good motivator, team leader, who never micromanages, will really make any kind of decent film with a few friends who know nothing about film or are passionate, but just starting out?
Because that is what it seems you're suggesting.

But feel free to tell me a bit more about your personal experience. I'm always open to learn. Like, what exact directions would you give your makeup team?

indietalk
Quote:
That belief is often out of fear of delegating and often results in a lot of micromanaging, which is probably the most annoying thing on set.
I am just a very curious person, especially when it comes to film. I will try my best not to micromanage. It has never been my goal to learn more so I could endlessly give instructions.

My goal is to be able to instruct friends when they ask questions, or if I see something that's not right and they can't fix it on their own.

For me, it's all about the story. I don't obsess over light as my end goal. It's a tool to tell a story - to move the audience, just like cinematography, just like audio, just like every part of filmmaking. The audience will be distracted from the story if the work isn't done properly.

Instruction: Telling them exactly what they need to press, which will then achieve something on it's own.
Directing: Telling them what the result needs to be, so they can get to work to figure out what buttons to press.
Micromanaging: Giving everyone, crew and cast, instructions.

Can we agree on these definitions?

Sweetie
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That's what commonly happens with cheap audio gear.

The expensive (good) stuff not only works best, it's built like a tank.
What price range are we talking about?

Quote:
If it's a lot of money to you, I don't understand why you're in so much of a rush to be flippant with your money. The path to building up your network of collaborators is hard work, but if you do it right, it'll help you spend your money where it counts.

On the flip side, building up your equipment means you're less reliant upon others to supply equipment. If you're constantly shooting, it can reduce your costs over the long run.

I do get the train of thought of building up your gear. Soundies are notoriously hard to find in my area so it was the first kit I built up and spent a bunch of time gaining experience and learning the craft. I have the knack of pissing people off at the drop of a hat so having my own gear can be a bonus. Then again, I don't consider $2k a lot of money. I have a full set of gear (audio, grip, lights, camera) that'll be mostly sitting there collecting dust for the next 10 months while I'm busy focusing on motion capture and animation at work.
I wouldn't consider myself flippant with my money. In that case I would've been out getting audio recordings done now. Maybe with bad gear, but we're talking about being flippant.

Networking is very important. I do try to maintain and grow connections. With me not having much time, it's a very, very slow process. And it's also why I need gear. So I can record and learn on my own, in my own time and at my own pace. Also, you don't want to be learning sound basics while you're on set. That will never result in anything good. (Personal experience on student film where I never tested my equipment until shooting)

Thank you for understanding my perspective.

Quote:
Try the "Sweetie" method. Continue to network and ask a lot of people until you get what you need. "This is what we're doing. Is this something you're interested in doing with us?" If not, move on to the next person. If the answer is no, don't waste another second on them. Life's too short to waste time on people who aren't along for the ride. Prepare for lots of rejections. It's part of the process.

It does sound like you need to volunteer and get involved with a lot of other people's productions and build up your network. If that's the case, be what everyone needs and you'll be the darling boy everyone needs. You can pick and choose which projects will help you achieve your goals best.
Haha, I'll try the Sweetie method.
And I certainly need to volunteer. I will see if I can fit something in during normal weeks, otherwise it be down to vacations weeks.

Buscando
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Just curious, Pizza,
How many films have you made & when did you make them?
And why did you stop?
Thanks for asking, Buscando.

I made 3 films/movies. As in clips that were edited and all with scripts, actors and stories. 2 had a script. The other was improv. They were all with friends who weren't interested in film as much as I.

I made the first 4-5 years ago, and then about 1 a year. So the last one was around 2-3 years ago. All were for school. But I really got interested in making films. I also made approx 50 youtube videos, so I know my way around Premiere Pro. Last one was last year.

I stopped since I could only get equipment from that school. So when I had tons of time, summer vacation, I couldn't shoot. I didn't own a camera and never considering shooting with things like my phone. Looking back at it, I should've tried to keep shooting and not be scared to go out there and do it. But the past happened and you just have to learn from it and move on.

Just to give you a bit more of an idea:
I got my current camera (DSLR Nikon D3100) around 1 year ago. Never considered using it until 2 months ago or so. I shot some test phones and video in my home. I then watched like 100 youtube videos and read 20 articles to learn some basics. Got it all in my bookmarks, and sorted per category (I still learn something new every day and add it to the bookmarks for memory refreshment once I get to the part, like editing). Then decided I needed practical experience, so I wrote a script (start of the whole pre-production phase). Then I went to look for a place to shoot it. I realized such a location would cost a few thousand to set up. Making it cheaper would take away from the feel it needed to have IMO at that point.

So while thinking of locations I realized that there's a forest near me (probably cliche but whatever). I wrote 6 outlines for short stories taking place there, on my phone. I chose the easiest one so that I didn't have to write another script (since I already learned quite a bit about scripts compared to my actual experience shooting). Before actually choosing to go for that outline, I looked up some types of shots to start practicing camera settings and cinematography in the forest. I decided I may as well do a first take of the movie while practicing settings.

Now I don't have a viewfinder for when filming so it's hard to see what you're doing while filming. So, I reviewed the footage at home. Main points I found:
1) Too shaky
2) Too boring -> colors not nice, no things around

1) It's a first person shot. One shot, and that's the entire movie. At the start the camera is slowly moving forward and low, then it starts moving faster and higher until falling down again. It's likely an overdone analogy, but whatever. It's more about me learning my camera at this point.
I realized I don't need to move fast, I just need to move fast relative to the pace I move at earlier. That way it should be quite stable without a gimbal.
2) I shot that scene in a more open part of the forest. Bad choice. And the weather was very 'grey'. Nothing going on.

School, I am in second year of college, got in the way, so I'm yet to redo the take or judge all the clips from the settings test. But... I did have some time to see how far I could make the current clip work with audio and editing added. I then realized I needed ambient sound, and footsteps. I looked some up online, but the ambient sound was way too noisy and I remembered the other time I tried to sync footsteps from a sound effect downloaded online. Didn't work. I also realized I would need audio gear for future project.

So I started this thread.

Alcove Audio

Thank you for that advice. So to clarify, you would say that $200-300 dollar gear fits in the range of gear with great resell value?

Quote:
My personal position is that directors should direct, not be running sound, working the camera, setting up lights, whatever. The directors job is to inspire a group of other creative people to share their vision (literally and figuratively).

However, why do your learning on your own dime/time? Work on every project you can fit into your schedule. That's where you can do a lot of your learning and it won't cost you a Euro. You'll help place lighting, run cables, assist with sound, and dozens of other jobs on a small set. Another important benefit is that you start building a network of people with whom you may want to work when you're ready to do your own projects. And many of them may already have or have access to the equipment that you need.
Right, so you say what the result needs to be instead of saying what they need to do. Or potentially, you tell them all about the story and the feel (sort of the same as result but told in a different way).

I will wait before spending. Get the book. I will make sure to get some experience on other projects and see if we can work together more often. Once I have that, and I still feel like I need my own gear, I will get it.
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:41 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
Thank you for that advice. So to clarify, you would say that $200-300 dollar gear fits in the range of gear with great resell value?
No, I'm saying certain pieces of gear will have a decent resale value, I never used the word "great." And it's not the price range, it is the specific piece of equipment. The Shure SM-58 (to use my example) has stood the test of time, other mics from the same era in the same price range have not faired quite so well.

The current line of prosumer mics and lavs from Rode and Audio Technica are solid pieces of gear that can reliably do the job (assuming proper usage) and will have something of a resale value if maintained correctly. There are plenty of mics and lavs from other manufacturers that are just as good but less popular. This is when you have to do your research.

A $300 mixer will not have nearly as much resale value. For many pieces of audio equipment the basic mantra is "Quiet has its cost." All audio gear will have "self-noise," which is the audio noise (hissing, hum, etc.) created by the operation of the equipment itself. This now includes AD/DA convertors and the like. The quieter the gear, the higher the cost.

We've been mostly discussing budget/prosumer gear, but a professional audio cart can cost up to $100,000. Yeah, that's a lot of scratch. Sound Devices is one of the big names in professional production sound equipment. An SD two channel mixer runs in the $1,000 range these days; built like a tank, utterly reliable, really quiet. However, SD gear from 20 years ago does not have as much resale value as the current crop of mixers, as the newer ones are much quieter.

So it's not the price range, but the specific piece of gear.


Just for fun, here's a few "Hollywood" sound carts...







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Old 02-10-2018, 01:41 PM   #49
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Nice history, Pizza.
What kind of videos were the 50 you made on YouTube?
What are you studying in college?
Do they have any filmmaking classes there?
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:13 PM   #50
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No, I'm saying certain pieces of gear will have a decent resale value, I never used the word "great." And it's not the price range, it is the specific piece of equipment. The Shure SM-58 (to use my example) has stood the test of time, other mics from the same era in the same price range have not faired quite so well.

The current line of prosumer mics and lavs from Rode and Audio Technica are solid pieces of gear that can reliably do the job (assuming proper usage) and will have something of a resale value if maintained correctly. There are plenty of mics and lavs from other manufacturers that are just as good but less popular. This is when you have to do your research.

A $300 mixer will not have nearly as much resale value. For many pieces of audio equipment the basic mantra is "Quiet has its cost." All audio gear will have "self-noise," which is the audio noise (hissing, hum, etc.) created by the operation of the equipment itself. This now includes AD/DA convertors and the like. The quieter the gear, the higher the cost.

We've been mostly discussing budget/prosumer gear, but a professional audio cart can cost up to $100,000. Yeah, that's a lot of scratch. Sound Devices is one of the big names in professional production sound equipment. An SD two channel mixer runs in the $1,000 range these days; built like a tank, utterly reliable, really quiet. However, SD gear from 20 years ago does not have as much resale value as the current crop of mixers, as the newer ones are much quieter.

So it's not the price range, but the specific piece of gear.
Sorry, I understand now. May I ask how you ''discovered' the Shure SM-58? (e.g. recommendation)

Buscando
Quote:
Nice history, Pizza.
What kind of videos were the 50 you made on YouTube?
What are you studying in college?
Do they have any filmmaking classes there?
Thank you, Buscando.

They were gaming/comedy videos. And some memes. Quite silly, but it's good to have a laugh sometimes.
Until around 2 years back I always had the idea that to be successful at something I had to do a job as well or better than someone else. So that's what I did. But actually, it's much better to do a job differently (especially when the market is limited and easily segmentable). To have an unique thing you're offering to the people watching, who you can target in distribution. In my college and in some businesses they call it: Value Proposition. Back to the point though: I learned some basics of editing, file formats, sync issues, light, audio clipping, filtering noise, photoshop (and much more) while making these video. I really do suggest it. And if you're not into gaming: make unique skits or do commentary on something no one else does commentary on. Some of your skills will really develop quickly and you will have that Value Proposition, which I didn't have.

I'm studying Small Business & Retail Management. All about starting and running your own business, or someone else's, at management level. It has quite some relevancy for movies, which is a great bonus.

That's a really good tip. I don't know if they do and I'm not sure where online I could find which classes they do have on offer. But I'll go ask next Tuesday. Thx!
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:37 PM   #51
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Sorry, I understand now. May I ask how you ''discovered' the Shure SM-58? (e.g. recommendation)
It was what all the bands playing at high school dances used (I graduated high school in 1976 - DAMN!!! I'm getting old!!!!!). I saw them used in concert footage. I talked to the older siblings of friends already in the music scene. And, of course, watching an SM-58 dropped 50 feet to the floor, being plugged right into the sound system and working beautifully (although needing a new windscreen) definitely convinced me.

All my equipment when I was a touring musician was thoroughly researched. Of course, pre-internet it was a lot easier to walk into a store and play with the candidates until I found one that felt right (the keyboard) and created the sounds that I needed. And, of course, budget played a very large part. I never jumped on the latest greatest popular piece of gear. That became especially important when keyboards started going digital; I would wait a Rev or two, or with computers/software I'd wait for a .1 or .2 so that most of the bugs have been exterminated. I also never bought "cheap" unless I needed a temporary replacement for something and renting/doing without was prohibitively expensive.

Since I can't try many things out before buying I do more research than ever. In the internet age it has become very important to me to use a couple of highly reputable vendors. That makes returns and refunds a non-problem if I find what I ordered to be deficient for my purposes or otherwise unacceptable.

As you get more and more involved in your chosen craft you naturally gain more knowledge upon which to base decisions. It's also both comforting and exciting that the 'net provides so many opportunities to connect with your peers. I was fortunate enough to be mentored via email by Randy Thom (yes, personal emails). There are a number of forums/groups pertaining to many audio disciplines - production sound, audio post, music recording, live sound, etc.
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:57 AM   #52
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It was what all the bands playing at high school dances used (I graduated high school in 1976 - DAMN!!! I'm getting old!!!!!). I saw them used in concert footage. I talked to the older siblings of friends already in the music scene. And, of course, watching an SM-58 dropped 50 feet to the floor, being plugged right into the sound system and working beautifully (although needing a new windscreen) definitely convinced me.
Hahaha, time flies!

I guess I'll watch some more reviews to see if I can find some good price/quality-efficient items. But first I'll buy the book and then get a headset so I can actually judge audio recordings a bit better.

Quote:
Since I can't try many things out before buying I do more research than ever. In the internet age it has become very important to me to use a couple of highly reputable vendors. That makes returns and refunds a non-problem if I find what I ordered to be deficient for my purposes or otherwise unacceptable.
So in big vendors you mean companies that will always allow you to return, no matter what, within the first few weeks. And that have a good reputation doing business.

Quote:
As you get more and more involved in your chosen craft you naturally gain more knowledge upon which to base decisions. It's also both comforting and exciting that the 'net provides so many opportunities to connect with your peers. I was fortunate enough to be mentored via email by Randy Thom (yes, personal emails). There are a number of forums/groups pertaining to many audio disciplines - production sound, audio post, music recording, live sound, etc.
Hmm, it truly is great to have a mentor when trying to develop yourself in anything in life.

I'll also start looking for more forums, specialized ones.

Thanks for all the help. Would you mind if PM you some sounds in the future? (I reckon that when I first start recording I'll still find it quite tough to judge my recordings. Promising to not send a lot )
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:14 PM   #53
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The Location Sound Bible’s great to own, but if you want a cheap tip, I found it in the library & managed to max out my time with renewals.
We have a pretty good library system that’ll get the book from any library & bring it to one nearby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
it's much better to do a job differently (especially when the market is limited and easily segmentable). To have an unique thing you're offering to the people watching, who you can target in distribution... they call it: Value Proposition.
That makes sense & agrees with the other things I hear about film & general business, thanks!
You seem pretty smart if you started college at 16? Certainly smarter than the 18 yr. olds I knew, including myself.
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I'm studying Small Business & Retail Management... It has quite some relevancy for movies
Cool, I hope you’ll give us some of that relevant info as time goes by.
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:36 AM   #54
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The Location Sound Bible’s great to own, but if you want a cheap tip, I found it in the library & managed to max out my time with renewals.
We have a pretty good library system that’ll get the book from any library & bring it to one nearby.
I bought the book just today. I like owning a hard copy. I never really mark books but I plan to start doing that. And I can always read passages again in the future. Just recently started considering installing a book shelf. Books can be really great. They allow you to learn the stuff people have put years upon years of work in, within a few days or weeks.
But that system sounds pretty good. I had a library pass for my local library until I turned 18. They give them for free to people to incite them to stay after 18. Decided not to renew.
I do know my college has a library. I will have to see if they have some filmmaking books.

Quote:
That makes sense & agrees with the other things I hear about film & general business, thanks!
You seem pretty smart if you started college at 16? Certainly smarter than the 18 yr. olds I knew, including myself.
You do hear about it quite a bit. That's true. Thinking about it: Movie critics like originality, the average moviegoer wants movies that are being talked out (by the media, friends or online) and have characters that can be rooted for, hated, loved etc. This webpage states it well: https://filmbyframeblog.wordpress.co...s-really-want/
So it's quite obvious why ratings can be so far apart.

Hate thinking of myself as smart. I think anyone can be as smart as anyone else, it's just the approach you take to life (e.g. free time spending, drug addictions). Mine is decent, but not the best if money or achievements are the meter of success.

Quote:
Cool, I hope you’ll give us some of that relevant info as time goes by.
Sure. I'll give one now: Growth Hacking.
And if you scroll down through this a bit you'll see some growth hacks listed: https://ahrefs.com/blog/growth-hacking/
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:07 AM   #55
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What price range are we talking about?
Most of the major bits are $1k+, some range up to $6k and more. Obviously decent C-stands aren't that much, but in my area, they're rather expensive compared to most other regions.

Quote:
you don't want to be learning sound basics while you're on set.
It depends on the set and what you call basics. You need to gain experience somewhere. Amateur sets are some great places to try new techniques and if they don't work, use backup coverage.

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Value Proposition
It's a great concept and fantastic to bring with you into filmmaking.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:24 PM   #56
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Here's a basic "reading list" for you to get started with audio post.

Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures - John Purcell
The Foley Grail - Vanessa Ament
The Sound Effects Bible - Ric Viers
The Location Sound Bible - Ric Viers
Sound Design - David Sonnenschein
Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound - David Yewdall
Audio-Vision - Michel Chion
Audio Postproduction for Film and Video - Jay Rose

There are quite a few others, but these are "basic." Yes, I've read them all, some several times.

You should also check out:

filmsound.org - Not recently updated, but loads of great interviews and articles, definitions, terminology and lots of history.

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php? - Forum for production sound professionals hosted by Academy Award winning production sound mixer Jeff Wexler.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:04 AM   #57
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Most of the major bits are $1k+, some range up to $6k and more. Obviously decent C-stands aren't that much, but in my area, they're rather expensive compared to most other regions.
It depends on the set and what you call basics. You need to gain experience somewhere. Amateur sets are some great places to try new techniques and if they don't work, use backup coverage.
It's a great concept and fantastic to bring with you into filmmaking.
Thank you!

Quote:
Here's a basic "reading list" for you to get started with audio post.

Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures - John Purcell
The Foley Grail - Vanessa Ament
The Sound Effects Bible - Ric Viers
The Location Sound Bible - Ric Viers
Sound Design - David Sonnenschein
Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound - David Yewdall
Audio-Vision - Michel Chion
Audio Postproduction for Film and Video - Jay Rose

There are quite a few others, but these are "basic." Yes, I've read them all, some several times.

You should also check out:

filmsound.org - Not recently updated, but loads of great interviews and articles, definitions, terminology and lots of history.

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php? - Forum for production sound professionals hosted by Academy Award winning production sound mixer Jeff Wexler.
Thank you. I'll get to reading
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