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Old 02-06-2018, 06:30 PM   #31
C9_Pizzaguy
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The other option is to find someone in love with sound and pair up. That way he gets your visuals and you get his sound.
Thank you for joining the discussion.

I'll certainly try to post something on the free ads billboard at my local supermarket and on fora online.
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Old 02-07-2018, 12:07 AM   #32
Sweetie
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So it would be important to get a mic that picks up audio consistently.
For the most part, yes, but also no. It depends on what you're doing, what you need and the circumstance you're thrown into.

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Probably many others things you can watch out for that I've never heard of.
It's the experience curve. You're never going to learn what an experienced audio guy will.

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Tell me if I'm wrong or if I'm missing something.
It's very hard to know. To be frank with you, the details about what you're doing are limited, so it's virtually impossible to give you anything more than general advice.

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So something 1 level up on the Rode Lav mic. Pretty much the best piece of gear at around $150 to $200.
I have to admit, for the most part, I've always been removed from low end budgets you're talking, but I've never come across anything in your budget range that's an improvement than the Rode Lavs. Your circumstances may alter that.
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:31 AM   #33
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So it would be important to get a mic that picks up audio consistently.
For the most part, yes, but also no. It depends on what you're doing, what you need and the circumstance you're thrown into.
In which situation would it not be important, though? I mean consistency as in that when you record the same sound twice with the same settings, that you pretty much get the same recording.

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It's the experience curve. You're never going to learn what an experienced audio guy will.
That is true. Thankfully I don't need to master it unless I exclusively want to be in sound. I would want to, but no one can master all aspects of filmmaking. It's a team sport, you need to be competent in the all roles so you can guide them towards doing the thing you need them to do to realise your vision of the film.

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It's very hard to know. To be frank with you, the details about what you're doing are limited, so it's virtually impossible to give you anything more than general advice.
Okay, I have to get footsteps. I reckon, but I could try, that it's impossible to record footsteps while filming in my situation. The mic would be out of frame, but the surface I'm walking would be unlikely to create enough sound. I would also need to get someone on short notice to hold the mic, since I want to wrap up this project and move into the next.

Other than that: Forest ambient sound. Which type of mic (something below $250 pls.) would be best suited? Not really talking about the exact model, but about the pickup pattern. And I've heard about using two mics, one which picks up sound in front and the other picking it up from the sides. Any advice?

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I have to admit, for the most part, I've always been removed from low end budgets you're talking, but I've never come across anything in your budget range that's an improvement than the Rode Lavs. Your circumstances may alter that.
Hmm. So you reckon nothing inside the $200 budget range is better at that Rode's job, than that Rode itself? Could I PM you some links to sound tests done by people on YouTube, see if you like the audio?
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Old 02-07-2018, 05:52 PM   #34
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I mean consistency as in that when you record the same sound twice with the same settings, that you pretty much get the same recording.
I get your theory. The reality is nothing is ever the same.

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It's a team sport, you need to be competent in the all roles so you can guide them towards doing the thing you need them to do to realise your vision of the film.
If that's so, why invest in the sound gear in the first place. Collaborate.

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I have to get footsteps.
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Other than that: Forest ambient sound.
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Any advice?
Use a sound effects library.

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see if you like the audio?
I'm not sure what would be the point. Recorded vs mixed audio and all.
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Old 02-07-2018, 08:03 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
In which situation would it not be important, though? I mean consistency as in that when you record the same sound twice with the same settings, that you pretty much get the same recording.
When it comes to production sound consistency is when the boom-op keeps the mic properly aimed at all times. Production sound is extremely easy to get wrong; that's one reason so many experienced filmmakers are so passionate about sound.


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Okay, I have to get footsteps. I reckon, but I could try, that it's impossible to record footsteps while filming in my situation. The mic would be out of frame, but the surface I'm walking would be unlikely to create enough sound.
As I have mentioned previously the only thing you should be recording during production is dialog. Everything else will be added in audio post. Use your Yeti and do the Foley work yourself. You can cut it tighter if your performance isn't perfect. Here's a place to start…






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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
Other than that: Forest ambient sound.
Get your sound effects (ambience qualifies as sound effects) from a sound library. Trust me, even mediocre libraries will probably sound better than what you could record. There are lots of free libraries of varying quality. You can start here:

https://freesound.org

Many sites that sell sound effects will have a small free section as well.

https://www.partnersinrhyme.com/pir/PIRsfx.shtml


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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
Which type of mic (something below $250 pls.) would be best suited? Not really talking about the exact model, but about the pickup pattern. And I've heard about using two mics, one which picks up sound in front and the other picking it up from the sides. Any advice?
Something that will record ambience WELL is beyond your budget and, more importantly, your skill set. Use library sounds. Two mics will record stereo ambient sound in a X pattern or a wide split pattern. And it's not front and back, it's left and right - unless, of course you are recording for surround sound. And even ambience is not that simple. I personally use use a simple stereo ambience as a basis for the full ambient sound sub mix. So if I am doing a forest scene I first study the scene and pick an appropriate "canvas." In this case it would be light birds (geographically correct). Then I will keep adding details such as individual bird calls, wind, animals, etc. This is when sound design can be fun as well as adding to the overall project. I don't know what kind of birds are in the Netherlands, but here in North America I would use a Jay or a Crow (which sound "nasty" or "evil") in the ambience after a character says something ominous.


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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
Hmm. So you reckon nothing inside the $200 budget range is better at that Rode's job, than that Rode itself? Could I PM you some links to sound tests done by people on YouTube, see if you like the audio?

If you don't care about quality, reliability or upgradeability you can pick any lav or mic you want. Rode and Audio Technica pretty much own the market as far as prosumer mics go. They sound okay and are reliable.
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Old 02-08-2018, 06:45 AM   #36
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Thanks for the continued discussion. Enjoying it!

Sweetie
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I get your theory. The reality is nothing is ever the same.
Okay, so I shouldn't worry about it as much.

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If that's so, why invest in the sound gear in the first place. Collaborate.
I need to know how it all works. Or at least the very basics. How else will I effectively guide people towards creating the thing I need?

Also, it's not all that easy to find filmmakers in my area who are willing to collaborate with a beginner. But like I said before, once I have some experience (i.e. made 3 micro shorts or so) I will try to hunt for collaborators. Would be nice if within a group we can help, on production and out of production, during each other's projects, share knowledge and brainstorm together.

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Use a sound effects library.
So I should basically just buy a recorder and a boom mic for dialogue, and that's it? And then a quality headset to judge it.
Use a sound library for foley and sound effects. ADR with same boom mic. And (background)music free, or free but on request. Of course if I really need something more fitting I could pay a fee.

Alcove Audio
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When it comes to production sound consistency is when the boom-op keeps the mic properly aimed at all times. Production sound is extremely easy to get wrong; that's one reason so many experienced filmmakers are so passionate about sound.
Okay. I'll experiment with the equipment a lot once I have it.

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As I have mentioned previously the only thing you should be recording during production is dialog. Everything else will be added in audio post. Use your Yeti and do the Foley work yourself. You can cut it tighter if your performance isn't perfect. Here's a place to start…
Thank you very much. I'll check it out.

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Get your sound effects (ambience qualifies as sound effects) from a sound library. Trust me, even mediocre libraries will probably sound better than what you could record. There are lots of free libraries of varying quality. You can start here:
I can very much believe that. They just have to fit, but I guess I can edit the audio a bit.
Added them to my bookmarks.

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Something that will record ambience WELL is beyond your budget and, more importantly, your skill set. Use library sounds. Two mics will record stereo ambient sound in a X pattern or a wide split pattern. And it's not front and back, it's left and right - unless, of course you are recording for surround sound. And even ambience is not that simple. I personally use use a simple stereo ambience as a basis for the full ambient sound sub mix. So if I am doing a forest scene I first study the scene and pick an appropriate "canvas." In this case it would be light birds (geographically correct). Then I will keep adding details such as individual bird calls, wind, animals, etc. This is when sound design can be fun as well as adding to the overall project. I don't know what kind of birds are in the Netherlands, but here in North America I would use a Jay or a Crow (which sound "nasty" or "evil") in the ambience after a character says something ominous.
Okay, so I should just keep scenes simple as much as possible so I only have to record some dialogue. Especially while I'm learning and don't have budget/crew/experience.

I like the mood reflection in the audio with a crow. Seems like a lot of fun indeed.

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If you don't care about quality, reliability or upgradeability you can pick any lav or mic you want. Rode and Audio Technica pretty much own the market as far as prosumer mics go. They sound okay and are reliable.
I'll for sure go for a Rode or Audio Technica for within my budget range then. Thanks for all the help.

-----

What I'm planning to buy:

- Tascam DR-40 V2 (€179 = $219)
- Audio Technica AT875R Shotgun (€155 = $190) OR Rode NTG2 (€185 = $226)
- Sony MDR 7506 Headphone (€100 = $122)

Haven't looked into accessoires and what I should watch out for. Any tips on would be greatly appreciated.

Specifically looking for a handheld boom pole, a boom stand for 'static' scenes, a shock mount, XLR cable if needed and a windscreen for shooting in the wind for the shotgun mic. Looking to spend around $200 for all, but feel free to convince me that more or less is better.
Are there any decent low budget boom stand/pole kits? Like a 2 in 1 thing?
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Old 02-08-2018, 08:38 AM   #37
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so I shouldn't worry about it as much.
If all you're going to do is learn enough to get yourself into trouble, I'd say correct. have a read of those books Alcove suggested and you'll be in a better position to determine your requirements and best course of action.

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I need to know how it all works. Or at least the very basics. How else will I effectively guide people towards creating the thing I need?
I get what you mean. It's exactly the same as catching a taxi. You need to know how to drive their vehicle and what path they need to drive to be able to catch one... Not to mention, how to maintain the vehicle and the list goes on and on.

I prefer another method. I tell the driver the desired destination and let them do their job. In filmmaking, that would be the desired result. Listen to their suggestions/options, make a decision and then let them do their job.

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it's not all that easy to find filmmakers in my area who are willing to collaborate with a beginner
It's a skill filmmakers/directors/producers need to learn. I suggest you do too. If not, you may find out later that you've been throwing money into a never ending pit in an attempt to find solutions that would have been better spent in other ways.

I've met plenty of people who have dumped $1-2k into audio (camera gear too) only to find out what they bought was near on useless. They're happy as a pig in s**t when they find the next sucker to palm it on to at a heavy loss. Those who invest in decent gear usually get a decent sale price when they do decide to sell/upgrade.

Then you'll end up with a similar issue with lights, grip gear and probably camera. Not a fun position when you're cash strapped.

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So I should basically just buy a recorder and a boom mic for dialogue, and that's it? And then a quality headset to judge it.
Since you've mentioned all you're doing is recording effects, I wouldn't buy any equipment.
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Old 02-08-2018, 09:07 AM   #38
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I need to know how it all works. Or at least the very basics. How else will I effectively guide people towards creating the thing I need?
Be careful with that. Nothing grates on me more than a director or producer micromanaging how I do my job. There is such a thing as having just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and that is not a place you want to be.

It’s one thing if you assemble a crew of beginners and you’re all figuring things out, but once you get to the point that you’re hiring skilled people for your crew you need to learn to trust that they know how to do their jobs. It’s great to be able to communicate what you want, and to be able to give delivery specs, but annoying to be telling people how to do their jobs.

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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
What I'm planning to buy:

- Tascam DR-40 V2 (€179 = $219)
- Audio Technica AT875R Shotgun (€155 = $190) OR Rode NTG2 (€185 = $226)
- Sony MDR 7506 Headphone (€100 = $122)
Get the AT, not the RØDE. With a recorder like the DR-40, you need a mic that has a little bit higher output. The RØDE has a lower output which means the preamps in the recorder need to make up more gain. That means a higher noise floor.

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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
Haven't looked into accessoires and what I should watch out for. Any tips on would be greatly appreciated.

Specifically looking for a handheld boom pole, a boom stand for 'static' scenes, a shock mount, XLR cable if needed and a windscreen for shooting in the wind for the shotgun mic. Looking to spend around $200 for all, but feel free to convince me that more or less is better.
Are there any decent low budget boom stand/pole kits? Like a 2 in 1 thing?
Are you doing anything with lighting? Do you have a C-stand? The easiest way to park a boom for a locked shot is to clamp a $20 bracket into the grip head to hold the boom. A regular mic stand isn’t going to have the physical reach necessary for anything more than a closely-framed, seated interview.

As for boom poles, Marantz has one that is iternally cabled and runs $89 here in the US. That’s very inexpensive. No idea how good it is, but may be worth a shot for a starter kit. RØDE has one as well for $49, but it extends to just over 6’ while the Marantz extends to 11’.

For a basic shockmount, the Rycote INV-7.
Wind protection, Rycote Softie or Auray WSS-2012.
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Old 02-08-2018, 09:49 AM   #39
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Sweetie
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If all you're going to do is learn enough to get yourself into trouble, I'd say correct. have a read of those books Alcove suggested and you'll be in a better position to determine your requirements and best course of action.
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Since you've mentioned all you're doing is recording effects, I wouldn't buy any equipment.
Right. I'll buy and read the book. Then once I start my next project, which will include dialogue, I will buy the equipment necessary and be more knowledgeable from the start.

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I get what you mean. It's exactly the same as catching a taxi. You need to know how to drive their vehicle and what path they need to drive to be able to catch one... Not to mention, how to maintain the vehicle and the list goes on and on.

I prefer another method. I tell the driver the desired destination and let them do their job. In filmmaking, that would be the desired result. Listen to their suggestions/options, make a decision and then let them do their job.
I don't agree with the analogy. I don't need to be a master, but I need to have at least touched sound design, before asking people for certain results. And I'm 100% on you with the creative input from everyone on crew and cast - very important!

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It's a skill filmmakers/directors/producers need to learn. I suggest you do too. If not, you may find out later that you've been throwing money into a never ending pit in an attempt to find solutions that would have been better spent in other ways.

I've met plenty of people who have dumped $1-2k into audio (camera gear too) only to find out what they bought was near on useless. They're happy as a pig in s**t when they find the next sucker to palm it on to at a heavy loss. Those who invest in decent gear usually get a decent sale price when they do decide to sell/upgrade.

Then you'll end up with a similar issue with lights, grip gear and probably camera. Not a fun position when you're cash strapped.
I agree, which is why I said before: I will get collaborators, it's just not easy.

I'm trying to find a piece of gear that sounds good enough and that I can learn from. From these pieces (years on) I can either upgrade or get an audio person. With the stuff I have at that point I will try to create movies that people love. That's the end of the road as far as indie filmmaking goes.

There is no dumping $2k unless you make a rash decision, which by the length of the thread, it clearly isn't. Adding to that, I'll read the book suggested before buying to be even more knowledgeable about my options.

And I don't have to sell my gear, ever. If I had to, I wouldn't buy it in the first place. I'm not strapped for cash or I wouldn't be considering mics above $20. If you're strapped for cash, (or spending it on credit) it is a big risk to spend $2k.


AcousticAI
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Be careful with that. Nothing grates on me more than a director or producer micromanaging how I do my job. There is such a thing as having just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and that is not a place you want to be.

It’s one thing if you assemble a crew of beginners and you’re all figuring things out, but once you get to the point that you’re hiring skilled people for your crew you need to learn to trust that they know how to do their jobs. It’s great to be able to communicate what you want, and to be able to give delivery specs, but annoying to be telling people how to do their jobs.
I agree. And my first 'crew members' will very likely be beginners like myself.

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Get the AT, not the RØDE. With a recorder like the DR-40, you need a mic that has a little bit higher output. The RØDE has a lower output which means the preamps in the recorder need to make up more gain. That means a higher noise floor.
Thanks. I was wondering about that decision.

Quote:
Are you doing anything with lighting? Do you have a C-stand? The easiest way to park a boom for a locked shot is to clamp a $20 bracket into the grip head to hold the boom. A regular mic stand isn’t going to have the physical reach necessary for anything more than a closely-framed, seated interview.

As for boom poles, Marantz has one that is iternally cabled and runs $89 here in the US. That’s very inexpensive. No idea how good it is, but may be worth a shot for a starter kit. RØDE has one as well for $49, but it extends to just over 6’ while the Marantz extends to 11’.

For a basic shockmount, the Rycote INV-7.
Wind protection, Rycote Softie or Auray WSS-2012.
I do need to get a few basic lights for indoors, but I'm not at a stage yet where I feel comfortable getting a full setup. I write my scripts with most restrictions in mind.

I don't have a C-stand but I'll look into all of it in the future.

Thanks for the recommendations!
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:46 AM   #40
Sweetie
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I don't agree with the analogy. I don't need to be a master, but I need to have at least touched sound design, before asking people for certain results.
You'll get to run your sets the way you want to run them. It'll be your dime.

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I'm not strapped for cash
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it is a big risk to spend $2k.
You're not getting me. It's a bigger risk to your wallet to buy the wrong gear. Spending twice is never the economical move.

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it's just not easy.
Nothing good ever is. If you have the right skills, put the effort into making the right connections, and have the right resources, it's not that hard to put together a team.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:58 AM   #41
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You'll get to run your sets the way you want to run them. It'll be your dime.
Of course I would be open to changing my style. Doesn't mean I should be bad at it to force a certain style upon me. Also, I'd be wise to be able to instruct when your people are inexperienced. When they're not you I will just say what my vision is and we can discuss like normally. No point in micromanaging crew in that way.

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You're not getting me. It's a bigger risk to your wallet to buy the wrong gear. Spending twice is never the economical move.
The thing is, I don't know if I will spend twice. There's also the chance of it breaking beyond repair before I upgrade.
When the future is unclear, never spend big. And yes, 2k is a lot for me. Wish I'd make it in a month.

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Nothing good ever is. If you have the right skills, put the effort into making the right connections, and have the right resources, it's not that hard to put together a team.
Stop taking it out of context, please! I said: I WILL DO IT
Also, definition of easy = achieved without great effort; presenting few difficulties
It clearly does present difficulties since I've never gathered a crew. And I tried to 'recruit' during small talk whenever I can and the one time I found it right to ask, I was rejected. And the guy loves movies, lives near me, and I've known him for 4 years. So go figure.
But don't worry, I'll try again and use some other methods.

And I agree with you that everything worth something isn't easy.

In conclusion of this argument back and forth: It's not easy, it's not hard. It's very much possible with enough effort.
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:28 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by C9_Pizzaguy View Post
I need to know how it all works. Or at least the very basics. How else will I effectively guide people towards creating the thing I need?
I'm always curious about this belief. I guess because I never had it.

Will you be buying a beginner makeup kit so you can know the very
basics of corrective make up?
Will you be buying a grip and lighting package so you can know how
it all works?
Will you be taking acting classes?

I have always felt that as the director I can effectively guide people
towards creating what I need by directing them. Not by knowing how
it all works.

Even after I spent 12 years in makeup effects and really knew how it all
works I never used my knowledge and experience on set when I directing
the makeup team. I know very little about audio and I know nothing at all
about costuming but I learned to guide the people who do.
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:43 PM   #43
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That belief is often out of fear of delegating and often results in a lot of micromanaging, which is probably the most annoying thing on set.
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Old 02-09-2018, 06:58 PM   #44
Sweetie
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The thing is, I don't know if I will spend twice. There's also the chance of it breaking beyond repair before I upgrade.
That's what commonly happens with cheap audio gear.

The expensive (good) stuff not only works best, it's built like a tank.

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When the future is unclear, never spend big. And yes, 2k is a lot for me. Wish I'd make it in a month.
If it's a lot of money to you, I don't understand why you're in so much of a rush to be flippant with your money. The path to building up your network of collaborators is hard work, but if you do it right, it'll help you spend your money where it counts.

On the flip side, building up your equipment means you're less reliant upon others to supply equipment. If you're constantly shooting, it can reduce your costs over the long run.

I do get the train of thought of building up your gear. Soundies are notoriously hard to find in my area so it was the first kit I built up and spent a bunch of time gaining experience and learning the craft. I have the knack of pissing people off at the drop of a hat so having my own gear can be a bonus. Then again, I don't consider $2k a lot of money. I have a full set of gear (audio, grip, lights, camera) that'll be mostly sitting there collecting dust for the next 10 months while I'm busy focusing on motion capture and animation at work.

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It clearly does present difficulties since I've never gathered a crew. And I tried to 'recruit' during small talk whenever I can and the one time I found it right to ask, I was rejected. And the guy loves movies, lives near me, and I've known him for 4 years. So go figure.
But don't worry, I'll try again and use some other methods.
Try the "Sweetie" method. Continue to network and ask a lot of people until you get what you need. "This is what we're doing. Is this something you're interested in doing with us?" If not, move on to the next person. If the answer is no, don't waste another second on them. Life's too short to waste time on people who aren't along for the ride. Prepare for lots of rejections. It's part of the process.

It does sound like you need to volunteer and get involved with a lot of other people's productions and build up your network. If that's the case, be what everyone needs and you'll be the darling boy everyone needs. You can pick and choose which projects will help you achieve your goals best.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:51 PM   #45
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Just curious, Pizza,
How many films have you made & when did you make them?
And why did you stop?
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