Camera, lights, sound.. Action! Very first short film

SpaceBacon said:

3. Sound
I think I'll try to do it manually in post-production. Or are there usable mics for max 30EUR? I'll probably loan one, if needed.. As I'm buying a camera, how important it is to have an external mic input?

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30 EUR sounds pretty cheap for a professional quality mic, so I would probably loan one so that your dialogue doesn't sound bad. You will also need music for your film, which means either hiring a composer or searching through a stock audio website for some ideas.

Here's the thing: Filmmaking is not a cheap hobby.

Good, cheap, easy - pick any two.

SpaceBacon said:

Hi guys,
So, to start with.. I have never done a short film before. I've always been really keen on doing one, but never actually tried it before. I really like photographing and doing posters etc. with Photoshop. But as I don't have any experience about film making, I'll do everything as cheap as I can. I think I'll love it!

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Welcome to it! Your name reminds me of the movie "Space Truckers"... they were shipping square pigs through space at the beginning of it. Great Dennis Hopper film

SpaceBacon said:

1. Camcoder
There has been a depate between Camcoder and DSLR. Eventhough DSLR could be also used to take still shots, I can't afford it. Another reason is that I somehow feel that the less effects I have in my hand the more I have to concentrate on simple ways to tell the story. Especially for me it's easy to caught up only in technical stuff.

I'm thinking of buying my camcoder used. My price range is 0-300EUR and it must be HD. Have the camrecorders developed a lot in the recent years? I mean how big of a different there is between models from 2008 and 2012?

Another question: As I would like to be able to edit the footage on my computer, does it set somekind requirements for the video. I mean can I edit 25fps as well as 50fps (if you don't do those slow motion takes popular in Vimeo ). How different it is to edit 720p compared to 1080p? It depends of course the footage, but how long have you guys edited your material for let's say a 2 minute film?

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300EUR = ~$400 (which is what I'm more familiar with). There are some decent options at that price point, but you've priced yourself out of considering DSLR at all with it. At this price, the picture will be fundamentally similar, more important is manual controls. Make sure that the camera you're looking at allows manual focus, exposure and white balance (all at the same time too), and the controls are easy to deal with. 720p or 1080p, at this price point, I'd go for 720 so you can get a cheaper camera with better features that paying the extra for the 1080p and sacrificing the other features.

1080p will also take much more hard drive space, ram, and processing power in your computer to deal with as well... and at this point, being able to store more stuff would be better for you as I would venture a guess you don't have an extensive storage solution for your projects. I have over a dozen projects in Standard def and they take up around 2Tb of disk space.

A typical edit for me can take from 1 24 hour period for a 8 minute short (during a timed competition like the 48 hour project or the 50/fifty Reel Challenge) to months of work for something that I intend to be seen by more discerning eyes. I recently spent 2 weeks on a rough edit that I will be refining over the next couple of months, then a few weeks for the color grade, a few weeks for the dialog cleanup, and a few weeks for the sound design. When all is said and done, we'll have a 20 minute short that took 8 days to shoot with a 20-30 person crew and 6-8 months of post production.

SpaceBacon said:

2. Lights
This made me believe that lights are crucial: http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=39213

I don't want to spend much money on lighting either. But what I understood the most important thing is first to have lights and then to decide the color of the light. Something like 3200K for indoors and 5600K for outdoors. I just thought I'll use some lamps I have from IKEA and use a gel/slide to change the colour. Any ideas of what kind of "coat" I can use in front of the lamps?

If I buy different bulbs is there something I need to watch out? I remember hearing that light from compact fluorescent lamp would not look as good as from normal bulbs.

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I like clamp lights and craftsman work lights for starting out, many threads on these here that can be searched for up top. CFLs will mess with your 30EUR audio and give you fits and make you lose sleep at night. They also give a bit of a yellowish light that I don't particularly like, and they're not hard enough and not soft enough for me, they have just the wrong amount of diffusion for my taste.

250w photoflood bulbs will be your best friend and can be had in tungsten and sunlight temperatures.

SpaceBacon said:

3. Sound
I think I'll try to do it manually in post-production. Or are there usable mics for max 30EUR? I'll probably loan one, if needed.. As I'm buying a camera, how important it is to have an external mic input?

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30EUR can buy you a cheap shotgun microphone like the ATR55. I have one. If you shoot inside, it sucks due to the RF interference anywhere with lights and ceiling fans and refrigerators - outside it's a champ! If you're doing the full kit thing, this is where to spend your money. I'd anticipate spending as much or more on the audio kit than on the camera to get decent audio. You can cheat lighting and image to maximize the quality of the image on even the cheapest of cameras... in audio, you get what you pay for. I currently run with a $350 Microphone on a $100 boom pole through a $500 mixer (for phantom power to my microphone) and a $300 recorder. So for $1250, I've got an audio setup that I consider usable, nothing more. I'd like to get a better shotgun with a longer capsule and a recorder that has much better circuitry to get better sound, but the price suddenly triples just above the gear I've got.

SpaceBacon said:

4. One more:
Has anyone made a stop-motion video using only pictures from a still camera? Does it take ages to combine pictures in order to get to video from them? Would you recommend some software for this purpose?

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It'll take an order of magnitude longer to make the images than to drag and drop them into the timeline. Most NLEs will allow you to deal with image sequences so long as the files are numbered sequentially.

Hey. Thanks for the extensive answers! It helped me a lot.. Thank God for Internet. Otherwise everyone would have to deal with these on their own. Anyway, I'm now planning to join couple indie movie projects this summer, so I'll learn something from more experienced film makers.


1. Camera + editing

knightly said:

Make sure that the camera you're looking at allows manual focus, exposure and white balance (all at the same time too), and the controls are easy to deal with. 720p or 1080p, at this price point, I'd go for 720 so you can get a cheaper camera with better features that paying the extra for the 1080p and sacrificing the other features.

I have over a dozen projects in Standard def and they take up around 2Tb of disk space.

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That's a valid point. If I'm not investing in film quality, I should make sure that I have at least some control on the camcoder. Editing will be faster as well. I bought a 2Tb disk few weeks ago for different purposes, but now I'm glad I didn't buy a 1Tb!

knightly said:

..we'll have a 20 minute short that took 8 days to shoot with a 20-30 person crew and 6-8 months of post production.

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Wow. I think I'll have to really look in to this. As soon as I've an understanding on what is doable in post-production I can plan my shot accordingly.



2. Lights

knightly said:

250w photoflood bulbs will be your best friend and can be had in tungsten and sunlight temperatures.

CFLs give a bit of a yellowish light that I don't particularly like, and they're not hard enough and not soft enough for me, they have just the wrong amount of diffusion for my taste.

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Thanks for the links. I think those bulbs are perfect for my purposes! Do you guys have any experiences on how to narrow the light from your first films? Would aluminum foil do the trick? The lights must be really hot after awhile, so you can't "coat" it with anything flammable.



3. Sound

knightly said:

..for $1250, I've got an audio setup that I consider usable, nothing more.

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Ok. You are right. It's useless to buy something really cheap as there might not be any use of it. I'll just borrow my friend's Zoom H4n. Then I'll see shortcomings of the sound myself.

aaronmartin said:

You will also need music for your film, which means either hiring a composer or searching through a stock audio website for some ideas.

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I wasn't even thinking of this. I'll play a bit piano, but I might need other sounds as well. Google gave me plenty of result with "stock audio". Is there some website you would recommend?

Thanks again for all of your advices!

P.S. If anyone else is interested, I found a tutorial for making a simple stop motion video. According to this the software will automatically order the pics as knightly said. Cool!

Plans from http://www.coollights.biz/free-clbd4-barndoor-template-p-48.html
Make sure you bolt them into something solid, the edge I used really is flimsy and will fatigue and break off after a little bit of use... perhaps if you were to reinforce the reflector toward the edge, you cold bolt onto that... bolts with washers and springs to provide tension in the hinges will get you good movement as well.

Paint them with either engine paint or grill paint... these are high heat paints that are made to take the heat. Only use them on the outside of the lights as the insides are supposed to reflect.

http://www.yafiunderground.com/Images/Barndoors/barndoors-1.jpg
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Images/Barndoors/barndoors-2.jpg
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Images/Barndoors/barndoors-3.jpg
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Images/Barndoors/barndoors-4.jpg
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Images/Barndoors/barndoors-5.jpg
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Images/Barndoors/barndoors-6.jpg
http://www.yafiunderground.com/Images/Barndoors/barndoors-7.jpg

On a related note, knightly - how do the 4800K bulbs hold up to standard daylight? I'd imagine the colour temperature difference would give a slight orange tint to whatever is being lit by the bulb.

Depends on how you light, the time of day, and the amount of cloud cover. I think they're just fine. Although, I tend to gel and diffuse just about every light I put on a set anyway to get the colors I want in the frame (not a big proponent of matched lighting -- I like color in my frame to hint at the world outside of it).

You can often get away with one type of colour temperature lights. That's what i do with My Arri lights. They are all 3200K and that's perfect for indoors mostly, where there is no daylight hitting the scene.

If i set them up outside on a day tho, i gel them up with CTB (Colour Temperature Blue) Gels, which "takes away" the orange tint of the lights they give you outside!



*Sorry for the funky spelling of col-ou-r

SpaceBacon said:

3. Sound
I think I'll try to do it manually in post-production. Or are there usable mics for max 30EUR? I'll probably loan one, if needed. As I'm buying a camera, how important it is to have an external mic input?

Click to expand...

Do what manually? The dialog? That's called ADR or looping.

Audio post is a whole different world than most indie types are used to. Think of it as animation or CGI where every single aspect of the film must be created from scratch; that's audio post. The dialog is edited together from the production sound - which includes all of the takes that were not used in the edit - and from ADR. It all has to become a seamless whole, otherwise the audience is pulled out of the illusion. All of the human made sounds are recreated by Foley artists - footsteps, cloth, punches, weapons handling, tableware, furniture, etc. Sound effects are also added - doors, vehicles, weapons, crashes, explosions - and detailed ambient backgrounds are created from scratch.

One of my favorite sayings is K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple, stupid. Capture the absolute best production dialog that you can. The performances are much more real and convincing than ADR; even the best actors have a tough time with ADR, and most indie actors are terrible at it; and you, as the director, settles for "well, it's close enough" instead of "that's great!", which the production dialog probably was but was so badly recorded it's unusable. And after all, your script is lines of dialog, not a detailed description of pretty pictures; and with most indie budgets you're not going to get the gorgeous shots that a nice bank account can provide. So focus on getting solid dialog, as that is the interaction of the characters, which serves the story, and telling the story is your job.

You should spend some time at filmsound.org, a site dedicated to sound-for-picture.

You may also want to check out my blog:

http://www.myspace.com/alcoveaudio/blog

Phil_UK said:

You can often get away with one type of colour temperature lights. That's what i do with My Arri lights. They are all 3200K and that's perfect for indoors mostly, where there is no daylight hitting the scene.

If i set them up outside on a day tho, i gel them up with CTB (Colour Temperature Blue) Gels, which "takes away" the orange tint of the lights they give you outside!

*Sorry for the funky spelling of col-ou-r

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Haha, someone who shares my 'colour' spelling

I personally like working with HMIs simply because of the output you can get from them. To me, it's somewhat inefficient to be drawing 2k worth of power for a 2k fresnel, but only getting 1/4 of the light output with a full CTB gel in front of it.
That's only when working with daylight though.

SpaceBacon said:

Has anyone made a stop-motion video using only pictures from a still camera? Does it take ages to combine pictures in order to get to

video from them? Would you recommend some software for this purpose?

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These claymation segments from a film of mine were shot on a Nikon digital still camera.

https://vimeo.com/42637812

They paced out the animation at 12fps, so it would be easy multiplication to get it to match the 24fps live action footage without having to animate every single frame. Even so, very time-consuming.

Stills were imported all at once, as a sequence, into After Effects. Told AE to count each still as two frames, and then plopped into timeline. Simple as that.

Had to make one minor manual adjustment to accomodate a drop-frame at some point. No biggie.

You can import images as a sequence directly into Premiere Pro, too, btw.

Oh, the entire sequence was resized in the timeline, too, from 5k to 1080. Big pics, about 20mb apiece.

What kind of animation you thinking of trying out?