• Wondering which camera, gear, computer, or software to buy? Ask in our Gear Guide.

Does the audience need to know, or can I just imply?

In my script the villains kill a cop and the main character cop is angry about it and wants justice. The district attorney does not want to prosecute, because there is not enough evidence against the villains, so he feels it would be a waste of money.

So the cop ends up blackmailing the DA into prosecuting the suspects. However, I am not sure how to go about writing this. If the cop is going to blackmail a DA into prosecuting an 'evidence-less' case, what's the point if a jury will not convict, right? There has to be just enough evidence for the cop to think it has a chance, but not too much evidence cause I need the DA to not prosecute it in the first place.

Basically the cop who is killed, is shot to death in a shoot out. The main cop, also in the shoot out, then has to pretty much take the body, and escape with it, so the crooks cannot have the chance to get rid of it. Once he escapes he then puts the body somewhere, where it can be found, but wipes away his own evidence of being there.

The cop who survived cannot testify himself cause he was not suppose to be there, which is why he left the body somewhere and takes off. But even if he said he was there, his testimony could legally be used anyway.

I originally wrote it so that the surviving cop takes the crooks hostage at gunpoint and forces them to plant evidence. He gets one to spit on the dead body, one to bleed on the it, and one to sign a their gang name on it.

Then what happens is, is that the DA does not prosecute because the investigators tell him that the evidence of the spit, blood and signature, were actually planted by someone else, and not by the gang of crooks themselves. Someone forced the gang to plant the evidence, so the prosecutor does not charge the gang. So the cop learns that his framing of the gang has come off as incompetent, and the DA can tell it was a frame, he then blackmails the DA.

Is this scenario better? That was the original one I wrote, but my friend said she didn't believe it after reading it, because she thinks that a DA would take on evidence even if it could have been planted, and how could they tell really? What do you think, is that more plausible, and I should stick to the original idea?

Or should I just write it so that the body is found, but the DA says there is not enough evidence, and that's all he says. The audience does not need to hear anything more, and the cop blackmails him anyway, even though the audience does not know what kind of faith the cop has, based on evidence whatever evidence there is to go forward with even?

Thanks for the input!
 
Last edited:
I need to do more legal research and find a basis for the motive that will logically work. I'll keep digging and asking others for their opinions, as to what's the most interesting one as well.
 
Harmonica wrote:


This idea is sound to me. Both are in this mess, they both took the risks knowing that they were high.



They wouldn't just let him go without charging him. If he goes in to the station to admit what happened to his superiors they would just arrest him and put him into custody. So unless he tells them through some other means without physically being present, the idea of him admitting it, then walking freely doesn't gel.



I'd go for the set up you had for the first idea - two cops go undercover without authorisation, one is discovered to be a cop, the other is forced to shoot him.

Actually I was thinking of going with this idea. It works the best for the plot, and I just have to tweak it to fit my theme more, but I think it will work the best. However, Phantomscreenwriter says that it wouldn't gel for the cop to admit to being forced to kill his partner. Is there a way I could write it where it would gel? I mean perhaps the protagonist feels guilty, and knows that they are going to find out anyway after investigating, so you might as well just tell the truth, in order to make yourself look as innocent as you can?

Also, I talked to a real cop about this scenario and he says that the protagonist would not be charged with murder likely. He says that even though the protagonist infiltrated the gang at his own will, he will get a slap on the wrist for that, but will not get in trouble for murder, because it's the villains who forced him at gunpoint to shoot his partner. Therefore, they will be charged, but not the protagonist, cause being forced at gunpoint to shoot someone, is not enough of a case to go to trial to get a jury to convict, so charges would be unlikely.

If this is true, than perhaps this scenario will not work either. However, PhantomScreenwriter, you seemed to think it was a sound scenario. Do you think that the cop I talked to is totally right about that?
 
How about this for a new revenge story. The two main cops decide to go undercover into the gang without authorization and are doing it at their own risk. The gang discovers that the main cop's partner, is a cop, and they decide to have the main cop test their loyalty by executing him. They give him a gun with only one bullet in and the main cop cannot over power five armed men, with just one bullet.

He realizes that if he does not shoot his partner to death, that the gang will kill him and his partner, and one dead cop, is still not as bad as two. So he kills his partner, since he will not be able to stop it.

He then goes to his superiors, and tells them the truth about what happened. The superiors feel that it's his fault his partner died, since he decided to go on his own wild goose chase, and they want to charge him with it. But he feels it was the gang's fault for putting him in that position, so he goes after the gang himself while trying to avoid the police.

This gives him more motive for revenge, since his superiors would rather charge him than bring the gang to justice. It also gives the cops a reason to go after him which is what I want in my story. He has to get to the gang to get his revenge before the police stop him.

Another idea is, is that the two cops do get authorization to go undercover, and are doing it with orders. However, the gang finds out that the cop's partner is a cop, so they decide to stage a break in, of the residence of another character. The other character is also a member of the gang and is on it, but the cops do not know this. The guy who's residence is being broken into shoots the cop's partner, and the gang gets away with it, cause it looks like a break in gone bad. The owner claims to have killed the undercover cop is self defense, cause he was part of a break in, while undercover. But the owner is actually in on it with the gang, and this was their way of getting away with it. That way, since they get away with it, and are not charged, it gives the main cop more motive for revenge.

Do these new ideas work better, or are they unnatural, with holes as well?

Sorry I meant this idea, in which PhantomScreenwriter commented on before.
 
Okay thanks. Well in order to make the plot work, I am still stuck at the same dilemma. I need to give the antihero a motive to want revenge, but at I need the villains to get away with the crime, or not be punished harshly enough for him to want it. ... Then I have to figure out how to end the victim's fate, in the story, or what to do with him. Then I should be good to, and write the new script from the outline.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein

If you still have the same dilemma then you are still using the same thinking. Keep it simple and think outside of your current box by challenging yourself. You've been given ideas and thought up some good ones. Pick one and work with it. If it doesn't pan out, try another. Revenge is usually dealt with in kind (an "eye for an eye" mentality). To want to kill them, someone has to have been killed or left in a state similar to death (coma, mental vegetable, etc.).

It's the quest for revenge that turns your "hero" into an "anti-hero". If I were you, I'd study the anti-hero's journey and use it as your central framework. The anti-hero can have any role. You've hit on a few ideas. As long as the character believes an event is worthy of revenge and the audience believes in your character, they will often go along with it. Death and injury are common reasons. As in "Taken" a kidnapping or forced human trafficking is another. However, blackmail, extortion, etc. are all possibilities.

While I enjoyed "Cowboys and Aliens", it is an example where two genres can overlap but still compete. The western genre elements were present and loosely dovetailed with an alien invasion (sci fi genre). As it progressed mixing the "lone gunman" with the "cattle baron" with the "cowboy and indians" and the "alien abduction" with the "alien invasion" with the "genocide revenge" elements it just started to muddy the story and started to stretch believability. As I told you before, the more genre elements you throw into a story haphazardly, the more muddied the story becomes. It takes careful thought and execution. Having a central genre as a guide helps to structure the pacing of the content (the 'beats'). While there are sci fi elements, it's clear that they are using a western genre primarily to help frame expectations.

In the first twenty pages or so, it should be obvious what the story is about. Not how it will end or what is going to happen but what themes will guide the story. His first step towards the dark side usually happens in the first act if this is an anti-hero tale. Here's where you set up the motivation for revenge. The second act chronicles the spiral and climaxes with the life changing dilemma that leads into act three where everything is brought to a conclusion.

Sweetie is right on the money that as the writer, you need to answer the tough questions. If doing research helps you believe in your own ideas, go for it. Though I think if you reflect, you can use what you've already presented or have been told to move forward.
 
Okay thanks. I think I know generally how to build into my ending, I just have to tweak and make it work. If I have a scene where the protagonist, switches clothes with a dead person and takes off his mask and wears it, then disfigures the dead person's face, so it is unrecognizable, could he fool people into thinking he is that person? And would they also think that the dead person with the disfigured face, is the other protagonist but with a disfigured face?

Or is that too far fetched and you can tell if someone is a different person even though he is wearing another person's clothes and has a mask on?
 
Last edited:
Harmonica Wrote:
If this is true, than perhaps this scenario will not work either. However, PhantomScreenwriter, you seemed to think it was a sound scenario. Do you think that the cop I talked to is totally right about that?

As someone who doesn't know much exactly about police procedure in the US, it didn't seem sound to me, but coming from an actual officer who would have much, much more knowledge than I do, I would definitely listen to them more than me :)
 
Okay thanks. Do you mean that my scenario doesn't seem sound, or the officer's point of view does not?

Well I think the best way to write my story convincingly is to figure out what motivates vigilantes or antiheroes? What motivates revenge? The crook getting away with it of course. However, getting away with murder is next to impossible, with today's world of investigation and technology, so I will have to figure out a way in which the villains can actually get away with it plausibly. Once I figure that out, the revenge will become much more clear and logical, and the story will probably work then.
 
harmonica44 said:
I have been doing legal research but have not found anything that says you can arrest someone on suspicion that they will commit a crime.

Ok, I will chime in on this - what are you doing that you are considering to be legal research? Legal research is very exhausting, even for most legal professionals. Legal research is, in the most basic of ways, finding an issue/problem and searching through YEARS worth of CASE LAW in order to see how judges ruled upon that issue/problem. Granted, I am not very knowledgeable of Canadian law though I am going to guess that it has a deep rooted structure that most Western nations and kind of follows English Common Law.


harmonica44 said:
First I need to do legal research but when I read law books and ask cops to get a better idea of how to write this, and if it will work.

What kind of law books are you reading? And why are you asking cops? Cops have nothing to do with the law except for enforcement. They do not have an understanding of the process in the way that legal professionals do (e.g. lawyers). What a cop may say flies in his opinion does not necessarily fly in a full legal capacity. Cops have a specific function in the legal process - which, as I stated before, is the ENFORCEMENT of laws NOT INTERPRETATION, which I believe that you are trying to do with your legal research.


harmonica44 said:
I need to do more legal research and find a basis for the motive that will logically work

Why do you need to do legal research in order to find a motive? Are you trying to make your scenes/character's actions seem plausible?


A huge problem that I see with your film, amongst the many that have already been pointed out to you time and time again, is that you have a huge problem in conveying exactly what is in your mind. Nearly every post you have written has been edited by yourself at some point. And then you usually end up writing up a follow-up post in order to (re-)explain yourself because you were unable to really convey to us what you originally meant. This is also happening throughout your script. It seems that you are trying to put down what you are visualizing, though in reality you are only putting bullet-points of what the scene is about - that is why you are ALWAYS defending your side of things.

I'm not meaning to be harsh or rude, but in all honesty, have you ever sat yourself down and asked yourself if the work product that you are putting out (scripts, movies, etc.) is really your best effort? If so, have you also asked yourself if you are actually cut out for this kind of creative work?
 
I consider legal research to be looking through law books. There is also some books I found on legal research geared towards writers, which I may purchase. I am asking cops because they are a lot more willing to talk about it compared to lawyers. Lawyers only want to talk about things like that if I have been charged with a crime it seems, but cops don't care, and don't mind lending the time in comparison.

As far rexplaining myself, if I mixconveyed something, or someone has a question about what I am saying, then I will simply elaborate. I never thought of it as more than simply, just that honestly.

When it comes to what I mean by doing research to help with logical motivations of my characters, is that a lot of times the law gets in the way of character motivation. If I have a character who wants revenge say, that is considered illogical because why take revenge, when you can just rely on the law to do justice. So I need to do legal research to find a way in which the villain get away with murder. Or I need to do legal research to find a way in which you could blackmail a DA, in such a way, that the law would not help him/her.

Basically the law keeps getting in the way of the logic of the plot, so I have to do research to find ways to write within the law, that logically work for my story.
 
Since you need so much legal research, it could be a sign that your construction (blackmailing DA to DO prosecute) is illogical and dysfunctional. Blackmailing to NOT prosecute is always more plausible.
For revenge you don't need law. It helps if the bad guys slip through the loopholes of the law, but the 'need for revenche' is an emotion, not a legal thing.

Actually you don't need the blackmailing.
You only need the cop descending into darkness by forging evidence...

Now I think about it: you will nt find anything about blackmailing a DA in a law book. And the way you apply 'rules' in filmmaking, makes me doubt you could logically apply the code of law.
 
I consider legal research to be looking through law books.

I'm sorry but this is not legal research. Like I mentioned before it consists of finding an issue/problem and then researching that the issues/problem through years of case law to see how the judges in those cases applied the law to that issue. It is not something that can be done easily nor in a few days. A thoroughly written memo on an issue can take a few weeks in order to create a first draft.


I am asking cops because they are a lot more willing to talk about it compared to lawyers. Lawyers only want to talk about things like that if I have been charged with a crime it seems, but cops don't care, and don't mind lending the time in comparison.


It may help to befriend an attorney or two. Most that I know actually enjoy talking about hypotheticals, especially if it allows them to use their skills in a funner way than just research and writing. And like I said previously, a cop's function in the legal process is way different that that of legal professionals. The enforcement of a criminal code /statute is way different than the legal interpretation of that code. Legal research is about finding out how others have interpreted that code/statute and how you can use that for your argument, or how to invalidate the opposition's argument.


...a lot of times the law gets in the way of character motivation.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.


Or I need to do legal research to find a way in which you could blackmail a DA, in such a way, that the law would not help him/here.

This, I'm sorry to say, is one of the most illogical things that could possibly happen. You will not find any case law in which a law will allow for the blackmail/extortion of a civil servant - it's just not going to happen.


Basically the law keeps getting in the way of the logic of the plot, so I have to do research to find ways to write within the law, that logically work for my story.

I'm sorry but I don't think that it's the law that is getting in the way of the plot. I think that it may be the implausibility of the situations that you have in your plot that is making the logical aspects of your story not work.
 
Last edited:
Okay thanks, you have a point. But sometimes I feel that I want my characters to behave illogically cause I think it would make for a better story. I was looking up real life vigilante situations, and a lot of vigilantes in real life have done things that were illogical while taking the law into their own hands.

For example, Christopher Dorner, did several illogical things, in his vigilantism. You could say that he may even wanted to get caught, and didn't make much effort to actually try to hide or get away with the crimes. In fact, I read that he posted on facebook, that he had a kill list, that he was going to execute, unless the press the police served justice towards his targets. That's even more illogical than trying to blackmail a DA to press charges, one could argue.

Is it possible to create a character, who is illogical in his vigilantism, or does a movie character have to be logical just so the audience buys it?

As for the antagonists in my script actually getting away with murder, that's something that has to actually be researched in law. Because I have suggested a few ideas on how they could get away with it, but other people who have given me feedback, have debunked them, saying that the way I apply the law is wrong, and they would not get away with it, thus making the need for vigilantism, moot in the protagonist.

So I need to come up with a way for them to slip through the law, that is not debunkable, thus I feel the need to find some legal scenarios that actually are not.
 
Last edited:
How about this for a new revenge story. The two main cops decide to go undercover into the gang without authorization and are doing it at their own risk. The gang discovers that the main cop's partner, is a cop, and they decide to have the main cop test their loyalty by executing him. They give him a gun with only one bullet in and the main cop cannot over power five armed men, with just one bullet.

He realizes that if he does not shoot his partner to death, that the gang will kill him and his partner, and one dead cop, is still not as bad as two. So he kills his partner, since he will not be able to stop it.

He then goes to his superiors, and tells them the truth about what happened. The superiors feel that it's his fault his partner died, since he decided to go on his own wild goose chase, and they want to charge him with it. But he feels it was the gang's fault for putting him in that position, so he goes after the gang himself while trying to avoid the police.

This gives him more motive for revenge, since his superiors would rather charge him than bring the gang to justice. It also gives the cops a reason to go after him which is what I want in my story. He has to get to the gang to get his revenge before the police stop him.

Another idea is, is that the two cops do get authorization to go undercover, and are doing it with orders. However, the gang finds out that the cop's partner is a cop, so they decide to stage a break in, of the residence of another character. The other character is also a member of the gang and is on it, but the cops do not know this. The guy who's residence is being broken into shoots the cop's partner, and the gang gets away with it, cause it looks like a break in gone bad. The owner claims to have killed the undercover cop is self defense, cause he was part of a break in, while undercover. But the owner is actually in on it with the gang, and this was their way of getting away with it. That way, since they get away with it, and are not charged, it gives the main cop more motive for revenge.

Do these new ideas work better, or are they unnatural, with holes as well?

I was thinking of going with the idea PhantomScreenwriter said was sound. Even though I said I didn't like that idea, and thought it meant the hero making a forced choice as oppose to real one, the idea, probably makes mroe sense right? However, even if the the protagonist is charged with the murder, which is what gets the cops, after him, the villains will still be sought after, cause they will be legally blamed for the murder as well.

So is logical that the hero would still go after the villains, even though they were still be brought to trial for killing a cop, or forcing someone too, which is pretty much the same thing?
 
But sometimes I feel that I want my characters to behave illogically cause I think it would make for a better story.

Did you re-read this before clicking reply?

He falls to the ceiling.

Without perspective, this would make no sense and may cause the audience to walk out. Just like a character behaving illogically. Set everything up masterfully and not only does it make sense the story shines. I suspect this is another of your incorrect labels. (Anyone remember the less contrast thread??)

That's even more illogical than trying to blackmail a DA

Just as I feared. The mind of h44 triumphs again.

who is illogical

It's simple. This will be poor writing, if not worse. You create the world, create the character and then set him/her up to be illogical. It simply means the problem lies on you. You're writing, your character development or your plot is wrong somewhere and you're clutching at straws trying to solve a problem you've incorrectly diagnosed.

I think you're over-complicating the issue in an attempt to hide poor writing. You were warned long ago. You plunged into the abyss. You should write what you want.
 
................

For example, Christopher Dorner, did several illogical things, in his vigilantism. You could say that he may even wanted to get caught, and didn't make much effort to actually try to hide or get away with the crimes. In fact, I read that he posted on facebook, that he had a kill list, that he was going to execute, unless the press the police served justice towards his targets. That's even more illogical than trying to blackmail a DA to press charges, one could argue...............

Your own logic is dysfunctional. What Dorner did is far more logical than you can understand, because he was driven by emotions. Probably of frustration and despair because of the injustice he experienced. He didn't want to be a killer, he wanted justice served. People don't follow laws when they feel emotions.

How is that more illogical than blackmailing a DA to do his job? Or to do his job in such a bad way that the criminals get away with it. The DA has either reason to not press charges, because there is not enough evidence and a mistrial would damage possible future trials WITH evidence. Or the DA is corrupt and under more pressure from the criminals than your cop could deliver.
It is far more logical to blackmail a DA to NOT do his job properly.


................
So I need to come up with a way for them to slip through the law, that is not debunkable, thus I feel the need to find some legal scenarios that actually are not.

What about leaving no evidence?
Pure and simple.




You are again trying to find 'rules' to justify a broken idea.

What if the cop is good and the DA is dirty, but the cop finds out too late?
Not as 'original' as your idea, but I guess your idea is as 'original' as a airplane made of solid concrete: nobody came up with it, because it won't fly...
 
"How about this for a new revenge story. The two main cops decide to go undercover into the gang without authorization and are doing it at their own risk. The gang discovers that the main cop's partner, is a cop, and they decide to have the main cop test their loyalty by executing him. They give him a gun with only one bullet in and the main cop cannot over power five armed men, with just one bullet.

He realizes that if he does not shoot his partner to death, that the gang will kill him and his partner, and one dead cop, is still not as bad as two. So he kills his partner, since he will not be able to stop it.

He then goes to his superiors, and tells them the truth about what happened. The superiors feel that it's his fault his partner died, since he decided to go on his own wild goose chase, and they want to charge him with it. But he feels it was the gang's fault for putting him in that position, so he goes after the gang himself while trying to avoid the police.

This gives him more motive for revenge, since his superiors would rather charge him than bring the gang to justice. It also gives the cops a reason to go after him which is what I want in my story. He has to get to the gang to get his revenge before the police stop him.

Another idea is, is that the two cops do get authorization to go undercover, and are doing it with orders. However, the gang finds out that the cop's partner is a cop, so they decide to stage a break in, of the residence of another character. The other character is also a member of the gang and is on it, but the cops do not know this. The guy who's residence is being broken into shoots the cop's partner, and the gang gets away with it, cause it looks like a break in gone bad. The owner claims to have killed the undercover cop is self defense, cause he was part of a break in, while undercover. But the owner is actually in on it with the gang, and this was their way of getting away with it. That way, since they get away with it, and are not charged, it gives the main cop more motive for revenge.

Do these new ideas work better, or are they unnatural, with holes as well?"



However, even if the the protagonist is charged with the murder, which is what gets the cops, after him, the villains will still be sought after, cause they will be legally blamed for the murder as well.

So is logical that the hero would still go after the villains, even though they were still be brought to trial for killing a cop, or forcing someone too, which is pretty much the same thing?

Look at this: he GOES to his superiors > they blame him and want to charge him > the cops go after him.
1) he is at the police station. Cops will only go after him if he escapes. Then he will be chased the whole movie: when will he have time to get to the criminals?
2) What if he is suspended and his superior is dirty?


The second idea looks like a legal construction instead of an exciting story...

PS.
all difficult choices are more or less forced. That is natural and that is a great ingredient for great drama. Especially for tragedies a forced choice can come closer and closer as an impending doom.
 
Okay thanks. I want the cops after him though. That was the point. I didn't just want him to go out and seek revenge without anyone knowing. I want the cops to be after him so he has to hide out and is on the clock in seeking his revenge before they find him.

The only plot hole in this left to fill though, is that the cops will want to charge the villains as well, and he doesn't really have a good enough reason to go after them, since the cops will be looking to charge them anyway per say. But it does get the cops on the protagonist's trail though, for a start.

As for the villains slipping through the law by leaving no evidence, you said it yourself that killing a cop will always lead to a trial.
 
Last edited:
With all the time you've spent trying to make a broken plot work, just imagine what masterpiece you could have written if you started from scratch like you were advised long ago.
 
Okay thanks. I want the cops after him though. That was the point. I didn't just want him to go out and seek revenge without anyone knowing. I want the cops to be after him so he has to hide out and is on the clock in seeking his revenge before they find him.

The only plot hole in this left to fill though, is that the cops will want to charge the villains as well, and he doesn't really have a good enough reason to go after them, since the cops will be looking to charge them anyway per say. But it does get the cops on the protagonist's trail though, for a start.

As for the villains slipping through the law by leaving no evidence, you said it yourself that killing a cop will always lead to a trial.

No trial without evidence. Ever.
Who is illogical again? ;)

I'm pretty sure that's not the only plothole :P

Ah, so you want the cops after him?
And you want to have a motivation why he would chase the villains, while the cops want them too?
That means you have to make sure that he wants something else from the villains than the other cops.
If the other cops want the villains dead (they don't like copkillers), the hero must want them alive for some reason.
But why would the cops be after him in the first place?
What if he killed the DA who was dirty and there is someone in the gang (not the copkiller) who wants out and can clear the hero's name, but the hero is sure his co-workers at the police will just kill the whole gang if they find them, because they are angry about the killed cop.
But how did the villains find out the hero's friend was a cop?
How does the hero know someone wants out?
(These last 2 questions can be related :P )

How did the villains kill the cop?
Why isn't there any evidence?
How does the hero know the DA is dirty?
And why did he have to kill him? Or did he just shoot him? Did he die after telling who shot him? Or not?
But!!! If the DA is dirty? How would the cops know which villains killed the cop?
Or does the DA need to survive to want to erase his ties with the villains, but having them killed in a shootout?

I know this is a different story, but at least you will be rid of blackmailing a DA to DO prosecute AND you'll have high stakes and a big motivation.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top