How should I handle this ADR problem?

[harmonica44]

That's another problem, is that the actors' performance in ADR is just not near as good usually. Why is this? What is it about actors that they need a camera in front of them to do a great job, but are bad with a mic only?

Most of my dialogue is fine, accept for a few lines and words, but I can't boom an actor while in fight scenes when their heads are constantly flying all over the room, and the camera is moving with them, making it hard to keep the mic out of the shot. How do I get a good performance then? They don't sound near as convincing on heavy breathing, grunts, and screams if doing it ADR, as oppose to when they are being filmed while fighting. I know I was told to dub those sounds after to get recorded right, but they couldn't get their voice performances near as good as on set. Is there any way to capture those sounds during the fight on set fight for future projects?

[Alcove Audio]

Dialog performances are much better during production because the talent has "nothing" to worry about except giving the performance. When doing ADR they have to match the pacing of the previous performance. They now have to concentrate on something other than giving a passionate performance, which detracts from the performance itself.

One offs - grunts groans, breaths, yells and the like - can be done (for the most part) without watching the screen or having to be in perfect sync (as long as you have great editing chops). I'll just turn off the video feed and let the recorder run. I'll even get in the room with them and squeeze them, "punch" them, make them run in place for five minutes, lay them on the floor and sit on them... whatever it takes to get what I need.

If it needs to be in sync the same as above applies but with a long loop with the visuals.

I'll give the talent a break, do some quick performance checks and perhaps a few sync checks using Vocalign, then either make them do it some more or move on depending upon what I hear.

Once again, this is an experience thing; my experience tells me when things will or will not work.

[harmonica44]

Yeah since I don't have something like vocalign right now, I have to sync it up later, and see if it works later before calling them back. But even on grunts and breathing, they didn't have to watch the screen, but still the performance was not as good.

[Alcove Audio]

This is something that takes a while to learn, if you ever do. This is not a slap at you, some folks just don't have the knack. As I say repeatedly, I just don't have the knack for visuals even though my wife (we're coming up on our 34th in a few weeks) is very visually oriented and has been pointing things out to me forever. Some of us have it, some of us don't.

It takes quite a bit of ear training. Once you've finished this project do some ADR of your own on well known films. It's very hard, even when doing it to material with which you are familiar. It teaches you that it's MUCH harder than it seems, and will hopefully help you to communicate better with the talent.

[harmonica44]

Yeah. And thanks for the help, I know it's not a slap at me or anything. I'll also just tell my actors the truth, that I had a sound guy, and audio engineer that said he would do it all from the beginning of the project, then dropped out just before shooting and I haven't been able to find someone else.

I am suppose to show the actors the final edit this month but ever since I asked them to do some ADR only one wanted to. The rest didn't get back to me, over a month ago. It's almost as if they hate ADR, cause they had seemed to be all looking forward to the final product before, and stayed in touch. (shrug)

[AudioPostExpert]

What Alcove has said is all true but I'd like to add:

You have to consider that virtually all the aids to a good performance which exist during filming are absent during ADR. Being in costume, being surrounded by the set or location, the interaction of their dialogue with the other characters and preparation time (in makeup and the night before), are all vital aids which actors rely on to "get in character" and not one of these aids exist in the ADR studio!

Think about it, are you going to make a more convincing gasp:
A. With a TV monitor in front of you and a mic pointed at your mouth or
B. With Freddie Kruger in front of you, with a 12 gauge pointed at your testicles?

Actors and Directors (without exception) hate ADR and none more so than method actors. Given the opportunity, no actor would ever turn up to do ADR, so they are never given this opportunity! Actors' participation in the ADR process is always a requirement of their contracts.

G

[harmonica44]

Wow, I had no idea actors would hate it so much to completely back out of the project. Do they care that once they show their work to others, looking to possibly hire them, that their voice is different? The director who may consider hiring them will of course want to inquire why they didn't want to redub their own dialogue, and therefore all their audio had to be changed. Isn't that a bad impression?

[Alcove Audio]

Actors HATE doing ADR.

Directors HATE doing ADR.

Rerecording mixers HATE using ADR.

Hey, I'm good at ADR sessions and I make money doing them, but I HATE doing ADR sessions. No matter how well I coach the dialog is only - at best - 60% of the passion of the original performance and usually a lot worse.

Get the freaking dialog recorded properly on the set!!!

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks, so for next time how do I do the grunts and screams properly on set, since I can't boom an actor if they are being thrown and wrestled around a room, or do I boom as they move, and try my best to follow them, even though they don't know exactly which way their heads will move each take? Plus a lot of times in action scenes I will have to boom the screams and grunts of more than one person since at least two or more people are fighting, and I don't want to record both voices at the same time, since that will complicate things, right?

[Alcove Audio]

Dialog wilds. Record them on the set after the scene has been completed. Also, you will (should) have lots of fodder from the numerous takes that are not used in the final edit. Fight scenes especially are rich in fodder since they are so complicated that you have more bits and pieces with which to work. I've reconstructed entire scenes from the alternate dialog.

Dialog editing is an art form, just like any other aspect of filmmaking. With indie projects it is in many ways the art of compromise. Have you gotten the Purcell book yet?

You also have to consider the rest of the soundtrack - Foley, sound FX and score. Lots of these vocalizations are buried once you finally get to the final mix. I've mentioned this before. This is another reason why audio post is handled by people who do nothing else; they have the experience and the "ears" to imagine how the pieces of the puzzle will interact during the final mix.

Another problem with getting people to show up to ADR sessions is that they are so far removed from the sessions. It is sometimes weeks or even months before they are asked to come in to record the ADR, and they just don't want to be bothered anymore. This is why on budgeted productions the editor is already working on the film during production. S/he works with the supervising sound editor to put together the ADR list so the actors can come in and do the ADR sessions very soon after shooting has been completed. They are still into the project and still in character. I realize that this is difficult for most indie types, but is a very important consideration. This is why directors delegate so many aspects of the project to the key department heads, so that everything takes place in a timely fashion.

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. I did record their voice work, the last day of shooting of the fight scene, after the fight. I thought it was all good, until now it's edited I see lots of parts where the acting of the fodder, just doesn't match the video performance, as well. Next time I hope I know what to look for more. And yes the Purcell book, just came a couple of days ago!

I've also watched a tutorial and read how to create punching and stabbing effects and stuff like that, pretty basic. But in the tutorials they did not record in in a studio or environment where the reverb was masked out. They just recorded it in plane rooms. Why? They say to add the room tone after, but the reverb would still be different.