Final Output Resolution

Scotty Fox · Jan 24, 2014

Hey Everybody,

I recently shot a short film as I mentioned in another post about CC, on the RED Epic at 4K, 2:4:1 ratio. So 4096 x 1708

In editing, I've had to reframe shots, many times punching in. I'm on the cusp of either mastering in 2k or 1080p.

My goal would of course to get into some festivals and get it shown on the big screen. I don't want to go any bigger than 2K and frankly I can't after resizing. But I want to make sure I'm doing this correctly so I don't screw it up and have to do it all over again as it's a 26 minute short with a lot of clips.

Here's what I've done and my questions follow:

-Transcoded my RAW files to 1080p ProRes 422 for an offline edit.

-Cut is locked, so going into VFX and color now, working off the RAW files.

-Once completed, bringing the 4K images back into premiere (what I'm cutting on) and manually going through and resizing all those back into the sequence to upres my punched in clips. I guess I could unlink the 1080p files and relink back to the 4k files, but I'd still have to resize since I've reframed so many shots. (Please let me know if I'm crazy and this is way off base).

-Say I want my master to be in 2K. What would my dimensions be for the sequence? I feel like this is simpler than I'm making it out to be. There is a huge gap in my knowledge here (partly because I've never done this before) so I apologize if these are stupid questions.

Since I've been resizing, I've brought in a photoshop layer that pretty much gives me my letterbox at the correct ratio. So for 1080p I layered it over the top of my timeline to give me the 2:4:1 ratio when I was reframing. I plan on doing the same for 2K (if I choose to go that route).

Does this sound like the appropriate way to get down to 2K or 1080p when you have reframed shots and punched in? I'm worried that I'm doing something wrong with the letterbox matte, etc., and if I get to screen at a theater (which I plan to anyway for the cast and crew) it'll look completely stretched or squashed or some other insane thing will happen.

Can anyone shed some light on this or provide some of guidelines to this process (Ratios, resizing do's and dont's). I've been reading online and posted in REDUser as well. I've received some feedback but looking for some more info as the discussion there has been a bit slow.

Thanks in advice for the help!

jax_rox · Jan 24, 2014

You shouldn't need to round-trip. Assuming your output was XML (I have most experience with AAF out of Avid) and any effected or title clips were pre-rendered, you should be able to re-size/re-frame in the online and export everything you need from there - probably a 2k DCP, and a 1080 file for web or whatever.

In terms of aspect ratio, you need to crop it, rather than simply apply a mask, at least for DCP. The transfer house, or the person mastering your DCP should be able to do that, or at the very least tell you the dimensions you need

Scotty Fox · Jan 24, 2014

Hey Jax,

I was talking to a color guy, and this is what I came away with.

I would export an EDL or XML from Premiere with the clip info from my offline edit. He would take that after VFX have been applied to those RAW clips, then bring into Resolve, CC, then export the clips at 4K Apple ProRes 4444 or something comparable. I'd take those, bring them back into premiere, resize in my 1080p or 2K Sequence (to match previous cut), add my music and SFX and be done.

Is that how you see it? Or am I missing something? From there I could go to DCP or 1080p, etc.?

For aspect ratio I thought throwing on that matte would ensure I was keeping the correct 2:4:1 and having my timeline the correct dimensions. Why would I need to crop?

This is the part that always confuses me as I know it changes depending on where you're going with it. If I'm wrong about the matte ensuring the correct aspect ratio, please tell me what I'm missing!! It's driving me crazy going through it in my head.

Thanks!

jax_rox · Jan 25, 2014

Sure, in this case you'd be your own online using the same software. I'm more familiar with Avid Media Composer workflow, which needs a seperate online to be able to export higher resolutions than 1080p.

If you're mastering in 2k, use a 2k timeline, and then create your 1080p version from the 2k master.

Throwing on the matte will give you a 16:9 image with black bars at the top and bottom. For web, or television this isn't a big deal; often television require a matte/letterbox.
On YouTube or Vimeo, the only difference would be the appearance of black bars or not.

Cinema, however, is a different ball game, and that's why the DCP specs are very tight.

Short of that, you should at least talk to the places you'll be exhibiting about what they need.

It can be pretty confusing, which is why you should have a transfer/post house do it. Realistically, that's best way to ensure that your DCP will translate correctly.

Short of that, you should at least attempt to talk to the places you'll be exhibiting about what they need.

Most productions I've worked on (that I've been able to see this far through post),have delivered 2k 2.39:1 masters as 2048x858 dimensions (i.e. cropped) to the post house for transfer.

I believe the DCI/DCDM spec states that only the active pixels should be included in the image - that means for 2.39:1 it would be 2048x858.

But, it's always changing, and I don't have the SMPTE document in front of me..

Scotty Fox · Jan 25, 2014

Hey Jax,

I think this is where I'm unclear, which is causing the rest of the process to be unclear. Pretty much it's when there should be black bars at top and bottom and when there shouldn't be.

Obviously it's used to fit the wider aspect ratios to a TV screen as you mentioned. But when you go to a movie in the theater there isn't any black bars (at least I never notice them). So when talking about the difference between mastering for the cinema and mastering for TV is where I get confused (as I've always done things for the TV or internet).

When I took the original 2:4:1 clips (assuming thats the same as 2:39?) and transcoded them to 1080p, it gave them a letterbox. So editing the offline clips everything had a slight letterbox to it. So I'm assuming that letterbox made it 16x9, making it possible for the 2:4:1 picture to be displayed on a 16x9 monitor or TV?

Since the clips are 2:4:1, won't they always have a slight letterbox no matter what screen you watch them on? unless you have a super wide TV or theater screen?

If that's so I believed getting the appropriate matte, one that was for a particular ratio at a certain resolution, (i.e., 2:4:1 at 2K) would provide the correct crop for the image to maintain it's ratio at 2K.

Because when I transcoded my 4K footage to 1080p, it adds the crop to maintain the 2:4:1 correct? If so, transcoding to 2K images would also give me a crop?

So hypothetically you should be able to take that 2K image and play on a theater screen and it would look okay?

I'll contact some post houses and inquire about the DCP transfer.

Oh and one more quick question. Does a master that can transfer to DCP and play on a theater, also work for master for TV? What I mean is, does one need to master for theater and TV separately, or once I have the 2K or 1080p master, they are interchangeable, or at least I can compress to what I need with say, Adobe Media Encoder?

Thanks for your patience Jax. It is much appreciated!!!!!

jax_rox · Jan 25, 2014

Scotty Fox said:
When I took the original 2:4:1 clips (assuming thats the same as 2:39?) and transcoded them to 1080p, it gave them a letterbox. So editing the offline clips everything had a slight letterbox to it. So I'm assuming that letterbox made it 16x9, making it possible for the 2:4:1 picture to be displayed on a 16x9 monitor or TV?

Yes, if it automatically gave them letterbox, it would be 16:9 (or 1.78:1

). This is likely because you simply asked the transcoding software to transcode to 1920x1080 - which in itself is 16:9 aspect ratio, so the only way it could adjust was to letterbox or stretch the footage. Somewhere in your software it likely asks you whether you want to letterbox or stretch when changing aspect ratios.

When you say original 2.39:1 clips (yes, it's basically the same as 2.40:1), are you talking about one's you've pre-cropped? If you shot in scope, you shouldn't really have this issue, and if you didn't and are talking about camera masters, then the camera masters should be in 16:9 to begin with..

Since the clips are 2:4:1, won't they always have a slight letterbox no matter what screen you watch them on? unless you have a super wide TV or theater screen?

On a television screen, yes. On the web, I believe Vimeo at least changes the size of the player. In the cinema, it's a different story, as most cinemas tend to essentially pillarbox their screens for 1.85:1 movies, and then 'undo' the pillarboxing when they're showing 2.39:1 movies. This is why when you go to the cinema, you'll often see tiny curtains on either side of the screen that may come down or go up. Conversely, the screen itself might simply seem to stretch. You may not have ever noticed it before.

If that's so I believed getting the appropriate matte, one that was for a particular ratio at a certain resolution, (i.e., 2:4:1 at 2K) would provide the correct crop for the image to maintain it's ratio at 2K.

Because when I transcoded my 4K footage to 1080p, it adds the crop to maintain the 2:4:1 correct? If so, transcoding to 2K images would also give me a crop?

So hypothetically you should be able to take that 2K image and play on a theater screen and it would look okay?

Sounds to me like you're getting your terms confused. Letterboxing is the existence of the black bars on the top and bottom. Cropping the footage, at least in this instance, would mean that only the pixels that make up the picture would be visible, without at letterbox, yet maintaining the correct aspect.

IIRC, the DCI/DCDM spec indicates that only the active pixels should be contained in the flie, therefore a 2k anamorphic film would be 2048x858 pixels, versus a 1.78:1 film which would be 2048x1556.
What you're suggesting is delivering a 2048x1556 film with a letterbox.

Oh and one more quick question. Does a master that can transfer to DCP and play on a theater, also work for master for TV? What I mean is, does one need to master for theater and TV separately, or once I have the 2K or 1080p master, they are interchangeable, or at least I can compress to what I need with say, Adobe Media Encoder?

You would create a master, in some sort of codec that you're happy with - probably an uncompressed .mov or something similar. It used to be the norm that masters would also get transferred to an HDCAM SR tape for longevity (and in some cases also an archival 35mm print). How far you want to go with that is up to you. From that master, you would create your JPEG-2000 mxf and package it with the DCP. You would also use it to create your 1080p files for television, web etc.

It would probably be easiest to add your letterbox when creating your secondary 'masters' for television, Blu Ray etc. though you could technically have a master file with letterbox and a master file sans letterbox (i.e. cropped).

For 35mm print, you would need to create a 'squashed' 2:1 image that could be lasered onto the film.

Your trusty post/transfer house will be able to help you with all this stuff, and create all the deliverables you need, if you do indeed end up employing one.
If that's the case, you could easily bring in a letterboxed 2k file and they should be able to use that to create whatever deliverables you need (cropped or not).

Scotty Fox · Jan 25, 2014

When you say original 2.39:1 clips (yes, it's basically the same as 2.40:1), are you talking about one's you've pre-cropped? If you shot in scope, you shouldn't really have this issue, and if you didn't and are talking about camera masters, then the camera masters should be in 16:9 to begin with..

I'm guessing camera masters.. the 4K r3d files.

IIRC, the DCI/DCDM spec indicates that only the active pixels should be contained in the flie, therefore a 2k anamorphic film would be 2048x858 pixels, versus a 1.78:1 film which would be 2048x1556.
What you're suggesting is delivering a 2048x1556 film with a letterbox.

Okay, so basically a 2048x1556 film with a letterbox is a 2048x858 film cropped to include only active pixels. So it's the same picture just with or without the extra black bars?

You would create a master, in some sort of codec that you're happy with - probably an uncompressed .mov or something similar. It used to be the norm that masters would also get transferred to an HDCAM SR tape for longevity (and in some cases also an archival 35mm print). How far you want to go with that is up to you. From that master, you would create your JPEG-2000 mxf and package it with the DCP. You would also use it to create your 1080p files for television, web etc.

Good to know, because after resizing all the frames if I choose to master at 2K to match the offline 1080p edit, I'd prefer not to have to do that again or further alter the final edit... just be able to create various sizes off the master is great.

Your trusty post/transfer house will be able to help you with all this stuff, and create all the deliverables you need, if you do indeed end up employing one.
If that's the case, you could easily bring in a letterboxed 2k file and they should be able to use that to create whatever deliverables you need (cropped or not).

Okay this is basically the biggest question for me so I don't end up having to redo this.

For my assembly of the 2K or 1080p master. How should I frame everything? With or without a letterbox? If like you say the post house can create any deliverable I need, is there a right or wrong way to do this?

I know we've gone back and forth with this... but If I edit with the 2K letterbox, so the 2048x1556 image. They can crop that for me for the DCP transfer? Then I could just edit with the letter box for TV purposes and let the transfer house worry about doing the cropping?

jax_rox · Jan 26, 2014

Scotty Fox said:
I'm guessing camera masters.. the 4K r3d files.

So you shot spherical with frame lines or you shot on anamorphic lenses?

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of REDCine - I've never been able to get it to do what I want..

Okay, so basically a 2048x1556 film with a letterbox is a 2048x858 film cropped to include only active pixels. So it's the same picture just with or without the extra black bars?

A 2048x858 film is the exact same as a 2048x1556 with a 2.39 letterbox on it. It's the same picture, just the 2048x1556 image includes the endless blackness on the top and bottom in it's pixels.

Okay this is basically the biggest question for me so I don't end up having to redo this.

For my assembly of the 2K or 1080p master. How should I frame everything? With or without a letterbox? If like you say the post house can create any deliverable I need, is there a right or wrong way to do this?

Well, you should frame with a letterbox, unless your editing software has some other way to remove the top and bottom of the image. Otherwise, you won't know what you're framing.

I know we've gone back and forth with this... but If I edit with the 2K letterbox, so the 2048x1556 image. They can crop that for me for the DCP transfer? Then I could just edit with the letter box for TV purposes and let the transfer house worry about doing the cropping?

Technically, yes they should. However, you should speak to them first to see what they need from you.

Either way, you should be able to crop the letterboxed image yourself anyway, so it shouldn't really matter if you use a mask over it.

Scotty Fox · Jan 26, 2014

So you shot spherical with frame lines or you shot on anamorphic lenses?

Spherical.

I actually emailed someone who does DCP transfers and basically got it cleared up. Pretty much what you've told me here as well.

Master at 2048x858 for 2K. He also mentioned some audio issues he sees as well, specifically a 5.1 mix to theatrical levels. I have no idea about this as well but I assume most sound mixers will be able to handle that.

He also said make sure the pipeline is 10bit.

So as you mentioned above, I'll set up my timeline with those dimensions and reframe, etc. inside that 2048x858 without the letterbox.

I do notice though, that the 2048x853 transcode gets rid of a black sliver on top of the picture, while 2048x858 leaves that black sliver. Not sure if that's the difference between true 2:40:1 and 2:39. If so, should I go with the 858 regardless? I say this knowing everyone I've spoken to including yourself is saying 858 but thought I'd point that out.

Thanks Jax!

jax_rox · Jan 27, 2014

Scotty Fox said:
Spherical.
He also said make sure the pipeline is 10bit.

Yes, please do

Your colourist is using the .r3d files though assumedly, and will assumedly give you .dpx files or something along those lines, so you should be fine in terms of bit-depth.

Scotty Fox said:
I do notice though, that the 2048x853 transcode gets rid of a black sliver on top of the picture, while 2048x858 leaves that black sliver. Not sure if that's the difference between true 2:40:1 and 2:39. If so, should I go with the 858 regardless? I say this knowing everyone I've spoken to including yourself is saying 858 but thought I'd point that out.

Doing the quick math would point to this being the case. It seems you've created a 2.40:1 matte on and are now attempting to crop to 2.39:1, which would introduce a small black line.

2048x853 is not really a standard; I've never heard of it being used. My suggestion would be to take off the matte, and simply render out at 2048x858

Scotty Fox · Jan 28, 2014

Thanks for all your input Jax.

I'm still looking for a colorist and VFX artist to complete what I have. But in the meantime I'll start organizing my timeline in 1080p (the offline edit) so when I export the edl it won't be a mess. Maybe even start building out the 2K timeline so when the final clips are exported from the coloring software I can just relink the final clips.

In any event thanks again for all the help. It definitely did clear things up. Now hopefully I won't have to do any VFX and grading myself.... :roll eyes: