Should a movie be judged from the time of it's release, or how well it stands today?

A lot of film buffs and critics, will judge a movie based on how it was at the time of the release, compared to how stands the tests of time now. But why is that?

I mean a lot of critics and movie buffs for example, say that Citizen Kane (1941) is one of the best movies of all time, if not the best.

However, their are later movies that follow the same structure as Kane. The structure being a compelling drama of someone's life, told in flashback all leading up to an emotional ending. Forrest Gump (1994) and Slumdog Millionaire (2008) for example, follow that structure, but I thought those were more emotionally compelling than Citizen Kane. CK is good, but feels like it's in it's infancy compared to the really good later movies that use that structure, but does that mean that CK should still get top billing cause it was the original?

Or for example, if you watch M (1931), it is a very good thriller and one of my favorite films. However a similar police on the race to catch the killer or killers drama, that was done even more suspenseful in my opinion was The Chaser (2008). Or perhaps even Cell 211. Not a serial killer thriller, but a thriller of the same genre, yet M still gets praise as the great crime thriller to stand above the rest. But unlike M, The Chaser does not get near as much praise even though, a lot might agree that the story is even more shocking and scandalous, than the original that inspired the genre.

Or how The Birth of a nation is considered a great classic dealing with the civil war, and the philosophies and politics, surrounding it. But you could say that Glory (1989), and Lincoln (2012), did it better per say. In fact most people might agree that those movies were better written, but The Birth of a Nation is still on critics' greatest films of all time lists.

Or if you watch Casablanca, it's love story during tragic war times, or just hard times, where someone looses a love, or yearns for a better life. However later films like The English Patient (1996), and Robin and Marian (1976), possible do it better, with even more compelling romance.

Or Sight and Sound magazine recently had a winning vote that Vertigo (1958), was the greatest movie of all time. Vertigo is sort of a psychological thriller drama, where a main character has to overcome some tragedy in his life, that has been manipulated towards him by a villain. A very good movie, but a similar genre of movie that was done bigger, darker and more dramatic, is Oldboy, and I think that movie struck more of a chord in me, and possibly a lot of other people. Yet Vertigo still gets top billing, cause it's the most classic per say.

Do film critics and movie buffs often choose classics as their top movies because they feel it's more proper, or because they are the originals, as oppose to ones that do it better later, cause they are not in their infancy and take things in more compelling directions?

Or do they pick older classics for a different reason?
 
I judge films by how they stand today. And citizen kane is still in the top 2% of films I've ever seen.

Try watching it with roger eberts commentary. You're likely missing a ton of things and cannot appreciate what you do not see.
 
I've always had a problem with Kane. The whole film hinges on a plot hole from the beginning (no one could have possibly heard him say "rosebud") that's just too distracting to me. Compare and contrast, M is still solid, though dated. And Casablanca is a near perfect film...I'd argue much better than the English Patient and Robin and Marion (though the latter I enjoy; neither are really in the same class)
 
I agree that M and Casablanca are great, and I'm a huge Fritz Lang fan. I just can't help think that future movies of the same genre and improved upon it (shrug). Kane is pretty good too, just saw it recently. I just didn't think it was the emotionally mindblowing masterpiece that it's made out to be. It just feels that with those earlier films that the story telling structures that made them great for the time, are in their infancy compared to future movies that may have improved upon them.
 
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well, yeah, I agree with that. M has been retold in many ways that are more relevant to the age. I love the Exorcist, but it's HORRIBLY dated. Night of the Living Dead is intense only if you consider the era in which it was made.

But on the other hand, I can't think of an example of Casablanca being done better than it originally was. A product of it's time, but everything hitting exactly the right notes.

...doesn't stop me from wanting to see a remake in Mos Eisley Canteena, but that might just be me.....
 
I've always had a problem with Kane. The whole film hinges on a plot hole from the beginning (no one could have possibly heard him say "rosebud") that's just too distracting to me.

That's a common complaint I've heard, but it's not actually true. Raymond says toward the end of the movie that he heard Kane say it, so Raymond was in the room with him and was the one who heard him say it. It was shot in such a way that it looked like no one was with him to emphasize Kane's loneliness.

Personally, I loved Citizen Kane. I thought that it was better than Forrest Gump and Slumdog Millionaire whether or not you're considering the factor of time, although I like those movies too.
 
I'm not saying ALL movies that are old classics are inferior to new ones of course. I mean two of my most favorites are Gone with the Wind and Lawrence of Arabia, and as far as epic historical dramas go, those are still two of the very best, and stand the test of time up to today. So some do in my opinion for sure. No courtroom drama has beaten the original 1957 12 Angry Men yet either.
 
Well for me it's simple, if I like the film then I'll praise it and say it's good, great, or a masterpiece according to how much I liked it (and if I have reasons to back it up). I like Citizen Kane a lot more than I like Slumdog Millionaire and Forrest Gump, the brilliant images, the emotion, the deep characterization and story, it all just works for me. Sometimes there are films that I don't really like but I think are good, and when evaluating the film I try to mention why I think it's good, but that it doesn't suit my tastes. Then there are films that I love that I don't think are really good, and when I review it, I mention that as well and explain why. Citizen Kane is one of my favorite films for many reasons, and many people who are willing to watch films from all cinematic periods label it as a masterpiece and have many reasons for thinking that way as well. I think that Citizen Kane is probably cinema's most praised work since most people agree that it's a masterpiece, and I think it deserves its status, although I think there are also many other masterpieces as well. I think the people that consider this film to be a masterpiece don't say it because it was revolutionary in 1941, they say it's a masterpiece because they love the movie and see that it is an extremely well-made movie today, very few movies are as well made as Citizen Kane. I really believe that no one can truly judge from a context that they are not even living in, people who watch Citizen Kane in 2014 can't imagine how it was to watch it in 1941 even if they wanted to.
 
Gone with the wind was so terrible. 140 minutes listening to a whiny bitch just to hear the dude finally tell her to shove it.

Lawrence of arabia though.. now that was a great film!
 
A Few Good Men was was pretty good, but I consider it to be a great movie of 1992, but not anything that surpasses the decade or anything. 12 Angry Men I would put in my top 20 of all time probably.

I didn't mind the woman in Gone With the Wind. She reminded me of problems I have had with ex girlfriend's and I found the movie to be relatable lol.
 
I use different ways of judging films, but if someone simply asks me which I like better, I don't consciously take into account their release date. However, I know that if M were released tomorrow--exact same movie frame for frame and assuming the original never happened--I wouldn't enjoy it that much. The subconscious knowledge of a film's age influences me and I can't help it. So when people say they enjoy Citizen Kane, I think something similar is going on to some extent, in addition to historical importance. I might enjoy studying something without enjoying the experience of watching it, and whether I say it was "good" or not depends on who I'm talking to.

That's just me, of course, but I suspect that a lot of people and critics think in a similar way with maybe more emphasis on various parts of the film and its history depending on the person. It's not really an either/or but a gradient.
 
Well if M came out today, I don't think it would be as good because it doesn't have as much plot compared to most thrillers of today.

Plus M does not have a dark mindblowing ending that you would expect and it does suffer from a somewhat convenient ending, compared to most thrillers of today. I mentioned The Chaser and Cell 211. Those movies have more plot, more twists and turns and surprises, and more dramatic endings. So M has modern movies like that to compete against if it came out today, and probably would not measure up to most people in comparison.
 
A Few Good Men was was pretty good, but I consider it to be a great movie of 1992, but not anything that surpasses the decade or anything.

In other words, this topic/thread is all a matter of opinion?

They're both good movies. Which is better is a matter of opinion. I personally prefer watching A Few Good Men over 12 Angry Men. Does that make 12 Angry Men less of a movie? Of course not. Does that mean I believe every element within A Few Good Men to be better than 12 Angry Men? Of course not. That being said, while they're both courtroom dramas, they have enough differences which make them hard to compare.

It's really hard to put a yardstick to the original question. Should we compare the past to the past? Maybe... Maybe the real question should be, it is? Do people compare to the quality of the day or not? Does the question really matter?
 
I absolutely hate how 'greatest movies of all time' lists included terribly terribly boring movies just because they were significant at their time.

Who gives a rats ass if birth of a nation was influential, or the first to use some technique that i've already seen a thousand times. It was a terribly boring and racist movie.. There is nothing great about it in the eyes of a modern audience !
 
I absolutely hate how 'greatest movies of all time' lists included terribly terribly boring movies just because they were significant at their time.

Who gives a rats ass if birth of a nation was influential, or the first to use some technique that i've already seen a thousand times. It was a terribly boring and racist movie.. There is nothing great about it in the eyes of a modern audience !

Eh, I'll be a defender of The Birth Of A Nation. I gave it a 6/10 because of its racist content, however, I think that it wasn't just the fact that the film's techniques were new, they are just applied really well, and I'd say that the film has some very beautiful shots and for me it was entertaining until the second half when it really got racist (which I think is still well-made but too racist for me to enjoy). I was surprised that such a lengthy early silent film kept me engaged. I'd say if it weren't so racist, it would be an early masterpiece of cinema. I would say that The Birth Of A Nation is awful, is racist, is an atrocity, but I would never call it boring and that's part of why I think it's so dangerous as a piece of propaganda. It's like Roger Ebert said, "it is a great film that argues for evil." That's what I think of the film anyway.

Still, for you a lot of those films are boring but how do you know they are objectively boring. I mean I like to think that for the most part the critics and filmmakers in those polls aren't just picking films for no reason, I'd like to think that they at least enjoy those films (though I do have a lot of complaints about the 'canon' lists like the one from Sight & Sound). There are a lot of films that I like that you would think are boring, and probably a lot of films that you like that I would think are boring. We're not supposed to like every film on a "greatest films of all-time" list.
 
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I kinda juggle around both ideas but lean more towards the "how's it hold up today?" kind of notion.

When I watch old stuff today I still go, "Man, they pulled that off back then? That's awesome!"

The example of the original 12 Angry Men, I personally hold that on high regard only because of the opening one shot sequence. Even if it was done in a "stage" like sequence, it's still incredibly hard to get everyone to hit their spots along with the crew every time.


Now, there are several old movies that I couldn't care about if I watched it then and now. Smoe of those include "Scarface," "American Psycho," "Clockwork Orange," and "Citizen Kane." Yeah, they may have been masterpieces, but I personally have no interest in them.
 
I would guess birth of a nation is enjoyable by 1% or less of modern audiences today

I would agree with this. I don't actually "enjoy" the film either, I appreciate it and was entertained by a little less than half of it, and I admired quite a bit of the artistry. That doesn't mean I enjoyed it though, I hated how stupid the racism was, it was really stupid.
 
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